jersey13

So in other words, if you're willing to freelance, life is just jim-dandy.

Did you know that going in? If so , why the switch? As an employee of a major newspaper, do you not get benefits that you would not get as a chef (assuming you didn't work in a unionized environment)?

Thanks Lesley. For a minute there I thought you didn't want an amateur diluting the professional programs.

Welcome to eGullet Arlene! And yup, that would about summarize several pages of arguments up to this point. However, it seems now that people are coming around to the idea that amateurs are soemwhat acceptable in the professional vocational milieu, so long as they don not comprise more than a certain percentage of the class and are not an impediment to those pursuing a career in the chosen subject. I can go along with that, but I also believe that under the circumstances I mentioned above, the onus is on the instructor to keep the class moving at the "professional" pace.

Does this mean you don't wish to tell me?

We've had threads for the best coffee, seafood, pizza etc, so for all the sweet toothed eGulleters out there, where are the best places to get great desserts? I'm not talking bakeries and we all know about Kilo, Calories and Second Cup (if you consider Second Cup to have great desserts. Personally I can't even stand their coffee, but that's another story ) It just seems that the existing dessert spots all buy from the same supplier. Soooo.....I'm looking for either restaurants that allow patrons to just order dessert (that's I tough one, I imagine)or establishments designated for the dessert and coffee crowd. Let's hear 'em!

Lesley, where in Montreal do people go to become professional pastry chefs? Are there separate programs or are they all rolled in with professional cooking?

Every job has it's pitfalls. Point well taken.

Makes sense Beans... But she does have a point, though: people who take couses for kicks are a completely different animal as compared to the serious amateurs. Bux: Your last paragraph about sums it up for me. Well said.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. There's a location out near me but if I've seen 10 people in there since it opened over a year ago, that would be a generous estimate. There is already a successful sushi biz in this neck of the woods and I don't believe that there is such a huge demand for it, that the area can support more than a few. Plus, Soto was pricey in comparison. Katsura offers much better prices and they're great for freshness.The last time I stopped in at Soto, my sushi wasn't quite right and I vowed never to visit that location again. Interestingly enough a new sushi place (can't recall the name) is opening a mere stone's throw from the WI location of Soto. Go figure..

Ugh. How about coaching their dismal piping skills instead of telling them that their technique is laughable? Why lie? After all they are paying you to teach them how to do x, y or z. When I enroll in a "professional" culinary school, I'm paying them too, they better tell me if I suck. My law professors didn't hold back if something was flimsy at best. I think you said it best -- you loathe teaching amateurs. That's fine. I loathe arrogance in teaching. I understand where you're coming from but I don't think Lesley's intending to be arrogant. Having taught adult learners and kids alike (different subject mind you) and participated in continuing education programs, I noticed that there tended to be an "I came to get what I paid for, so you just keep your negativity to yourself" type attitude among what we've been calling the "hobbyists" in the groups. While their reasons for being in the courses may well be completely different from those with the passion for the subject and I will support their right to participate, I found that some lacked the courtesy to allow others to get what they needed out of the courses too, or weren't disciplined enough to check their egos at the door.

welcome to real life? You got it Tommy. My background is in Marketing/PR. Not too long ago I saw a job posted for cafetiria kitchen help at a major pharmaceutical company near my home. Convenient hours with benefits. Given that I enjoy cooking, etc, I told myself if the money was right, I would apply. Turns out it wasn't, but, had it been,my life would have changed pretty drastically.

Of course they do... unless the school decides they do not want to admit them. Then they don't. No one has the "right" to attend a private educational institution. But I think here we are discussing institutions that ARE allowing them. Obviously it would exclude the ones that don't admit them.

Sure, a class can sustain a small percentage of hobbyists without interfering substantially with the educational mission -- with the quality of the product being sold by the for-profit organization. But there's a limit, and as a paying student with professional aspirations I would consider my own investment to be devalued by the presence of a large contingent of hobbyists. I don't understand how anything would be devalued if the hobbyists have to endure the same courses and meet the same standards to achieve the end result of a diploma. If you have a class of 100% hobbyists and they don't cut the muster, then they fail. Plain and simple. Just like any other degree. They get the same opportunity. If they choose to screw around, then that's their problem. One of the things that gets devalued is the reputation of the school as a serious educational institution. This in turn jeopardizes its placement rate -- the percentage of graduates who go on to work in the field. To someone who wants to be a cook this is a big factor in the decision to attend a particular school. So it's placement rate suffers, and it attracts fewer would-be professionals. Eventually, the school will have to decide whether it is going to be a school for hobbyists or professionals, and market itself accordingly. Edit to add: among some educational accreditation boards, placement rate figures significantly in the equation for accreditation itself. Without accreditation, a school cannot offer a recognized degree, and its students are ineligible for most forms of student aid. True. And 100% was an exaggeration on my part just for the sake of argument. On that note, I don't imagine you would get 100% hobbyists consistently enrolling in these programs. It's sort of like auditing, I guess you can allow a certain percentage of those in a course, but the rest of the spots are reserved for those pursuing the degree. But I still think the hobbyists have the right to attend if they are paying the dies and doing the required work.

Sure, a class can sustain a small percentage of hobbyists without interfering substantially with the educational mission -- with the quality of the product being sold by the for-profit organization. But there's a limit, and as a paying student with professional aspirations I would consider my own investment to be devalued by the presence of a large contingent of hobbyists. I don't understand how anything would be devalued if the hobbyists have to endure the same courses and meet the same standards to achieve the end result of a diploma. If you have a class of 100% hobbyists and they don't cut the muster, then they fail. Plain and simple. Just like any other degree. They get the same opportunity. If they choose to screw around, then that's their problem.

Yes, but Julia Child never worked as a professional chef. In fact, that is her forte, that is what made her JULIA CHILD. Well I guess there's a point for the amateurs.

QUOTE=jersey13,Jun 30 2003, 11:22 PM] How do we : Not particularly relevant to the determination. Sure it's relevant. If we're saying that these hobbyists shouldn't be sharing the same programs as the potential pros because they are not pursuing the program as a career, then I think it's definitely relevant. That's a good time to transfer from the hobbyist program to the vocational program. And which pro will be yielding his/her seat to make this happen? What you're saying make sense, but now the logistics are a problem.

Maybe I didn't express myself clearly. How do we : A) Determine the student's true motivation b)Ensure that it will not change after the completion of the program? There are pains in the ass in every class regardless of their true motivation to pursue their education. And, how can we determine that a "hobbyist" won't develop the "pro/vocational" mindset during the course of study? I'll be the first to admit that most students don't have a friggin' clue what their needs are, but what stops them from flat out lying?

But then that brings us back to the question of admittance based on motivation. Do we accept these people on a trial basis and then turf them for asking one too many "self indulgent" questions?

Sometimes middle agers and seniors who audit courses are more on the ball than the room full of undergrads surrounding them.

Okay, general question here: Are there no student loans in these programs? If not, how about regular loans? The majority of university students graduate with a debt because they couldn't afford to finance their education with their $8/hour summer jobs. Why does someone who wants to cook instead of teach or design bridges for a living have to be treated differently? Elite schools in any discipline are off limits to all but a minority of people who can either pay out of pocket, get loans or earn scholarships. I have friends in their mid thirties who are still paying off school debts and I'm not talking Harvard or Yale. Plenty of people can't "afford" their education, but there's a remedy to that if loans, etc aren't available: work, then enter school. As for the the Michelin starred chef he/she may work harder, but he/she chose this life. I can certainly agree with the idea of opening more publicly funded programs, but let's face it, if the program is so superior at a private institution, then that's why people are spending the money. And so long as people are willing to spend the money, these institutions will continue to thrive. Overall I don't think you can discriminate based on motive because you don't know that the people who claim at the beginning that they aspire to be professional chefs, will in fact pursue that goal at the end of the program. If a candidate demonstrates the necessary skills to be accepted to and successfully complete a program, be it physics or baking, then what that person does with the knowledge is his/her own business. Just ask yourself how many people get undergraduate degrees in one discipline only to wind up doing something completely different after graduation. Even those who have the fire in their belly at the start may realize along the way that they can't hack it , but I can't see how to weed them out from the get go.

Back when I had my very own office: A bag of President's Choice lemon Crunch Cookies A box of teabags A small jar of honey

When I read this, what jumped out at me were the memories of all the restaurants I've eaten at in the USA , Canada, Europe and Australia where the desserts were just appalling. And I thought of many desserts prepared by very competent amateurs which were stunningly good. In the final test (that is - the actual product) there is not such a stark contrast between most ordinary professional pastry chefs and very skillful, well-practised home cooks. For some odd reason, professional abilities among pastry chefs don't always result in consistantly fabulous desserts. I'm with you on that jango. Some of the worst desserts I've ever had have been made in restaurants/cafés, etc, by what I presumed would have been "professionals". Some of it would leave you begging for Betty Crocker to appear and save the day.

I'm not sure exactly when it went live, but the Rosalie website is up and running. It has clips of the interior and the menus are posted. I find the scrollbar at the right a little sticky and I guess it would load much faster on cable but it's a very elegant site. Kudos to the web monkey who designed it. It's impressive Oops, I missed something.... Thanks for adding the link docsconz. I guess I forgot the obvious.

Okay, so "sucks" may be too strong a word (especially for something I haven't seen ),although you wouldn't know it from the tone of VM's post(yikes!) .So how about if he "airs his concerns about its timeliness and accessibility" while he has them on the phone?