cabrales

If Horlicks and Ovaltine are not readily available in supermarkets or specialty stores in NYC, try Chinatown (Canal or Flushing).

stephen -- I have no idea, but I hope so Did you read the Norman Mathews (or some other name??) review of Clerkenwell Dining Room over the weekend? My recent experience there was fairly good, but not consistent with this critic's raves. (See thread referenced by the restaurant's name in this forum) I've noticed the same critic raving about all sorts of other things.

Steve -- Argan oil is from Morocco, but I believe that it was French chefs that began using it meaningfully outside of Moroccan cuisine (incl. the Gagnaire reference already provided) and before the NYT article ran. If that is the case, it could be argued that argan oil was successfully (leaving aside the question of the oil's taste) incorporated by the French, and then trickled over as a result to the US. On the spicy crab dish, first of all I would not distill the discussion to date in this and other threads to the question of this dish. However, the dish was more readily invented by Nobu because, among other things, and assuming I am recollecting it correctly, it has little reddish/orangy dots inside the spicy cream sauce. If that item is indeed tobiko or flying fish roe (and that's a big if; members please advise), that item is prevalent in Japanese sushi/sashimi preparations. There are other reasons Nobu's signature dishes are what they are because of his Japanese influences -- (1) black cod with miso -- miso is rampantly utilized in Japanese cuisine and sweetening it in the way it is would not necessarily be natural to French chefs, and (2) rock shrimp tempura -- here, obviously, the tempura preparation is common in Japanese cuisine. Perhaps only a person with Matsuhisa's background (or something comparable) could have come up with these preparations, but that doesn't mean these admittedly delicious dishes had to be created by French chefs for French cuisine to continue to be highly relevant and, for me, dominant.

Bux -- Thanks for spurring my thoughts and clarification. Bouillon has a history in French cuisine, but the way bouillon is used at Hiramatsu was surprising to me (almost as a thin, thin sauce in the foie gras/oyster/leek dish, and potentially unusually in the pigeon dish, which also involves cabbage and foie gras, all in a bouillon ?! -- I'll verify later this month upon a revisit). Granted, in the truffled royale amuse-bouche, the bouillon is in a more traditional preparation. It's hard to tell with TimeOut's descriptions sometimes, or from the Hiramatsu menu (Aiguillettes de pigeonneau au foie gras et consommé de julienne de légumes), which does not mention how the consumme is utilized in the dish.

Bux -- I'm not saying that, just that I have a strong personal preference for elimination of unnecessary items in a dish that leads me to dislike certain things about dishes and about certain chefs. And, if another diner does not have that aversion, he should consider my assessments across the board taking that quirk into account. Note a recent post under the India forum in which I note my agreement with your assessments there and provide an example of how careful Pacaud is in his utilization of spices in seeking combinations that work (contrary to alleged attempts just to be contemporary).

If members spotted it, what was the gist of Jacqueline Friedrich's review of Hiramatsu in the February 28, 2002 (Thursday) Wall Street Journal? It appears positive, as the heading was apparently "In Paris, a Star Is Born". Also noted the write-up by TimeOut, which describes the pigeon with foie gras appetizer as also utilizing bouillon. It is interesting that we have talked about successful incorporation of non-French influences in French cuisine. Bouillon utilization by Hiramatsu is a good example. Japanese cuisine is quite well-developed on bouillons, including in connection with the serving of noodles that are an important aspect of Japanese culinary culture (as BON's work no doubt confirms) I would imagine Hiramatsu has something to add in this respect. "Just as 2001 ended, Japanese chef Hiroyuki Hiramatsu produced the culinary event of the year with this spectacular new restaurant . . . . [i wouldn't agree with this statement, or the next] Easily the most important new restaurant to open in Paris in the new century, this place serves sublime Franco-Japanese dishes like a salad of raw pigeon breast, savoy cabbage and foie gras, poached at the table in hot bouillon, . . . ." Dorie -- Have you had your second meal at Hiratmatsu yet?

For members not located in the UK, A A Gill (among the better UK critics in my mind) gave locanda locatelli five stars (the top rating, and, according to the article, a first?). The primary motivation for the fifth star appeared to have been locatelli's "decent" treatment of his staff, which Gill noted showed in his experience at the restaurant (?) In contrast to Gill's well-written (and, based on my experience with past reviews, reasonably insightful) reviews (esp. now that Jonathan Meades is no longer prolific in this regard), see Giles Coren's recent attempts at writing (leaving aside the fundamental question of assessment of things culinary): http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,1147-225709,00.html

I have been drinking too much champagne (including old champagnes that taste almost like wine), incl. around bedtime. This week, it's Mumm de Cramant (a single-grape Chardonnay from a special grand cru classified region), which has no indication of year. I recently realized there are white Banyuls, and might try some of that too. Something like warm milk with almond or hazelnut syrup might be a nice thing to switch to. There is a grainy barley (?) based drink mix called Horlicks that might be good as well for this purpose. Other non-alcoholic possibilities I have been considering include an infusion of orange flower blossom. Wilfrid -- Is it daily alcohol that is potentially not a good idea, or daily alcohol around the time being discussed?

vivin -- My Ghislaine Arabian meal is briefly posted under "lunch or dinner in Paris on March 6" -- sorry if it's unclear from the thread title

Steve -- I can't immerse myself in this debate right now, but wanted to address the very limited factual point of Pacaud's langoustine with curry dish. When I tasted this dish in 4Q 2001 (and saw it served to a dining companion 1Q 2002), the curry was not "sprinkled" (i.e., inside the completed dish, the form of the curry was not primarily "powder" or grains or nonintegrated forms of curry). The curry was (at least most obviously) part of a medium yellow, French-consistency sauce, on which perfectly cooked langoustines were couched. (See further observations on Pacaud and Japanese ingredients used by Troisgros under the original thread under "France"). I would appreciate confirmation from other members on the use of curry in the this dish. Below is an article on Pacaud and his red pepper mousse amuse-bouche. Would a chef putting so much thought and care into his red pepper mousse utilize cumin witout a genuine belief that it was appropriate to langoustines? Excerpt from a July 31, 1988 (no typo), New York Times Article by Patricia Wells (not necessarily a reliable critic, but let's not continue to discuss that at this point): "While other chefs jet-setted about and tinkered with exotic ingredients to draw attention to themselves, Bernard Pacaud . . . remained at the stove, slowly refining his dishes. . . . One Pacaud dish - a creamy red-pepper mousse that he has been refining since he first began preparing it at Vivarois in the late 1970's . . . . For Pacaud, the word refinement means getting to the spare essence of an ingredient. His red-pepper mousse is a case in point. While working with chef Claude Peyrot at Vivarois, Pacaud was presented with a crate of sweet red peppers. He chopped the raw peppers, pureed them in a food processor, whipped them together with some cream and ''created'' a red-pepper mousse. Over the years, every six months, he's changed the formula, updating to improve the texture, intensify the flavor. . . . Right now, he is working on a delicate blend of 25 carefully measured spices that includes coriander, fennel, black pepper and cloves. It will be used as a thick coating for turbot, and served with a delicate jus de veau. 'Come back in a few weeks, and taste this,' he says, as he runs his fingers through the spices." French chefs at high levels don't need to "get away" with anything, and they were never getting away with things just because there had been less globalization, mobility and communications in the past. While the quality of the cuisine among French chefs obviously varies, at the top level the chefs are doing what they think works.

I thought the curry flavor was too strong in the sauce for my tastes, but recognize that, as far as curries go, it was relatively light. I often have the problem of finding saucing (including traditional French sauces) too severe at many French restaurants. The sesame wafer bothered me a little(and that is not because of the countries with which sesame has traditionally been associated). The wafer had a lot of sesame grains on it, and I thought the dish was sufficiently developed without the wafer at all. This last point reflects one of my quirks, no doubt, re: preferring less convuluted food.

I do not mean to ursup Steven's start, but here goes (not comphrensive lists of items for me, as, among other reasons, I have not eaten at all restaurants in each relevant group and I may come up with more after further thought): 3-stars in France that Should be a 2-star: -- Clearly -- Paul Bocuse (of course, Bocuse will never be demoted by Michelin in his lifetime, absent a clearer break from the restaurant than just less frequently being there), Georges Blanc, Pourcel twins. -- Subjectively -- Plaza Athenee (I know this is controversial), Taillevent, Marc Veyrat (yes, the six-star chef) -- Note above lists are shorter than the list of chefs whose cuisine I dislike. For example, I recognize that I subjectively dislike Gagnaire, but his cuisine may be interesting to certain other diners and he is creating his own cuisine and not being shy about it. 2-stars in France that, leaving aside expensive ingredients and other non-cuisine elements (these are significant caveats in the Michelin world), Should Soon be a 3-star: -- Loubet at Moulin de Lourmarin 1-stars in France that, leaving aside expensive ingredients and non-cuisine elements and duration of operation of restaurant, Should Be a 2-star with Strong Promise for 3 stars: -- L'Astrance 1-stars in France that should be a 2-star: -- L'Espadon at the Ritz, Paris

Bux & Steve -- Apologies for my late entry into this thread, but I come out on Bux's side of the dialogue on this one. Many of the spices that are a component of certain curries (acknowledging the wonderful diversity in curry preparations and my lack of an understanding of Indian cuisine, although the Indian board is helpful) -- chilli, pepper, cumin, cardamon, coriander, saffran (sic), cinammon, cloves, anise, ginger, etc. -- or other spices in the same spice "families" either (1) have existed in French cuisine for lengthy periods of time, or (2) have since been well-integrated into French cuisine. It cannot have always been wrong, as Steve posits, for curry or the spices in curry to be used in French cuisine. Consider Mao and vivin's visit to Paris recently (see the summary thread), when they praised the use of cumin. Or, despite my not having appreciated Pacaud's langoustines with curry dish particularly, that dish. That is a French dish that utilizes curry appropriately, just like other cuisines have utilized curry in wonderful, but likely different, ways. At Pacaud, the curry has been embodied into a sauce, containing a bit of cream, that was undeniably French. The sauce was too powerful for me, but that did not detract from its French qualities. It had the smooth consistency of certain French sauces, and lacked the inclusion of other ingredients and the "graininess" textures in the mouth associated with certain (albeit not all) Indian curries I have had. Obviously, the Pacaud dish did not utilize coconut milk that is prevalent in certain curries (including Thai curries) outside of the French context. There was another clear reason the dish was French -- the langoustines accompanying the curry were supple and tender and appropriately prepared, just like they would be at Pacaud's if a non-curry sauce had been utilized. As a novice with respect to Indian cuisine, I would appreciate input on whether, in Indian cuisine, (1) the separate preparation of the main ingredient used inside curry is common, and (2) curry is commonly included in a smooth, non-grainy sauce of the type described. It is clear that curry has a place of special significance in Indian cuisine that it does not occupy in French cuisine, but this fact does not detract from the French's successful utilization of curry in certain circumstances. I would like to point to another example of the use of cumin in French cuisine. Troisgros has a dish currently on the menu called "L’aubergine en gelée fraîche au citron vert, une pincée de cumin" (aubergine in a gelee of green lemon, with a pinch of cumin), that I consider very good. Troisgros is a good example of the utilization of non-French ingredients (in the examples below, Japanese) to good effect. Below are potential dishes to consider, which I have not yet tasted, but soon may: Bain-marie de crevettes grises au wakames (Grey shrimp, cooked in a container placed inside a pan of water, with wakame; below is a description of wakame, a seaweed-like item) http://www.pacificrim-gourmet.com/Glossary/wakame.htm Court-bouillon de bar au riz “Koshi-Hikari", un voile de moutarde (Broth-like item of sea bass with "Koshi-Hikari" rice and a veil of mustard) http://www.williams-sonoma.com/cat/pip.cfm?sku=2126530 Noix de Saint-Jacques à la chiffonnade d’endives, wasabe (Scallops with thin shreds of endives and with wasabe) Because of the way Troisgros cooks, his cuisine is distinctively French. A chef in Japanese cuisine (leaving aside Hiramatsu -- a chef of Japanese origin who cooks French food) cooking with wasabe, Koshi Hikari rice and wakame does not utilize those ingredients like Troisgros does. That is part of why French cuisine is special.

My username is Cabrales and I may agree or disagree with Steve P. I am among the diners who continues to need France.

Steve -- Without suggesting necessarily imitation or any other form of flattery, I note the following US chefs and samples from the menus currently on their Website: 1. L'Orangerie, L.A.: "Cremeux de Crabe a L'Anis Etoilee, Avocat et Tomate" (Creamy King Crab with Star Anise, Avocado, Tomato and Almond Oil) -- The use of avocado, crab and almond oil brings to mind a certain dish with the same ingredients at L'Astrance. P Wells' description of this dish is as follows: "My favorite dish on the entire menu is the glorious crab and avocado 'ravioli.' In place of pasta we have paper-thin, round slices of the ripest green avocado, flanking mounds of sweet, brilliant pink crab. All is accompanied by perfectly salty mounds of almonds and anointed with just a touch of sweet almond oil. It can't get much better, much simpler than this." http://www.patriciawells.com/reviews/iht/2001/2601.htm It is entirely possible Lefebvre, who, like L'Astrance's Pascal Barbot, worked in the same great kitchen in Paris, came up with the crab/avocado/almond oil combination on his own. I don't know whether Lefebvre had this item on his menu before L'Astrance started up in 4Q 2000, and there are differences in the apparent creaminess of the crab and the utilization of star anise. Here's the L'Orangerie menu link: http://www.orangerie.com/menuor.htm 2. L'Orangerie -- "Tomate Legerement Confite, Macedoine de Legumes, Gelee d'Eau de Tomate a L'Anis, Salade d'Herbes" (Whole Confite Tomato, Vegetable Macedoine Style, Tomato Water Jelly with Star Anise, Herb Salad). Note the confit tomato, which needs no reference, and the gelee of tomato jus. 3. L'Orangerie -- "Carre d'Agneau Roti, Caviar d'Aubergines a la Menthe Fraiche, Pomme de Terre Fondante, Artichauts Vieux, Vinaigre et Romarin" (Roasted Rack of Lamb, Eggplant Caviar with Fresh Mint, Potato, "Fondante", Artichoke, Aged Vinegar and Rosemary). Note the vinegar and rosemary combination. Does that remind you of a dish you have reported on with respect to a certain Paris restaurant? 4. Aureole, New York -- Jerusalem Artichoke and Preserved Lemon Soup, Extra virgin Argan oil. The use of argan oil is arguably an influence from France. http://64.225.79.246/aureole/dinner.asp

Steven -- I would subjectively rate Plaza Athenee a very strong two-star, with the understanding that some people could rate it a three-star based on the overall experience or even based on the food alone if it suited their tastes. However, I would rate many three-star restaurants two-stars (including, among others, Bocuse, Georges Blanc and the Pourcels). For ADNY, while I have not dined there very recently, I would rate it a two star. For me, if Bouley achieves the level of cuisine he did at Duane Street, he would be a borderline three-star (no worse than Guy Savoy and the best chef in the US in my book, with all due respect to T Keller).

Steve & Simon -- I would agree that there are greater non-French opportunities now available to the Western palate. However, for me, and with all due respect to the existence of alternative viewpoints, the availability of greater alternatives does not detract from the primacy of French cuisine when the latter is at its very best. "Relevance" must mean more than prevalence and widespread acceptance taking the world as a whole. For example, French cuisine is less prevalent in China or Africa, and for their billions of people, because, among other things in the case of China, (1) traditionally many Chinese did not have the capability (legal authorization, economic means, gastronomic information) to travel, and (2) many Chinese believe in their own cuisine, which is filled with local subcategories and subtleties. Now, it might be the case that French cuisine simply does not suit Chinese tastes, but I doubt that most Chinese people ordinarily living in China have sampled French haute cuisine in France. The same for peoples based out of Africa or many regions in South America. "Relevance" should have an aspect of qualitative dominance as well. The French appropriately look inward with respect to technique and style (if not with respect to ingredients) because they understand their own cuisine best, and they appreciate how elevated it can (note not in many instances, but can) be. That an item (like dazzling French cuisine) is scarce does not make it less relevant; if it is sufficiently stunning, a cuisine can be highly relevant, if not highly prevalent. Also, that stunning cuisine by a given chef may be difficult for other chefs to replicate (and therefore be difficult to "spread" through imitation or inspiration) could merely bolster how special that chef's cuisine is. Interestingly, certain Japanese diners appreciate French cuisine in France, a point that suggests the glories of French cuisine are appreciated by persons with non-white backgrounds and by persons whose own cuisine is quite evolved. This is going to get us back to whether French cuisine is intrinsically "better" than other cuisines. I admit I consider that it is , even if it is only because of a limited number of stellar restaurants that that is the case.

magnolia -- If it's a Saturday or Sunday meal, I'd be happy for most days to have a meal (with some prior commitments being constraints). Maybe we could beg for a table at La Regelade, or go to Ghislaine Arabian. Or try the place with gazelle and with ostrich carpaccio -- see "St John" under "United Kingdom and Ireland" -- or the relatively new soup specialist restaurant. I'd be happy with any choice of restaurant. On Ghislaine Arabian, nice execution and greater subtlety with respect to cuisine using beer than I had imagined. I ordered large, plump scallops in an emulsion of beer -- there were no bitter afternotes from the utilization of beer, and a nice complexity of flavoring. Then, Bresse chicken in half mourning with some of the last truffles of the season. The maitre d' offered me a free side of french fries, for which Arabian is relatively known. They were nothing special. The turbot cooked in beer entree was tempting, but required two people. I also declined the beef cooked in Geuze because of mad cow considerations. The wine list is strong for a one-star, with a special section of better wines priced relatively well that Arabian is utilizing as a marketing tool. The sommelier was quite helpful, but I adhered to my original choice of a Bollinger R.D. 1988 (at less than 900 FF, or almost the price one would pay at Fauchon retail). A deserved one-star, although not yet at the two-star level that Arabian previously enjoyed at Ledoyen.

Steven -- With all due respect to everybody, I dislike Ducasse's food and have from the beginning. (Note I also happen to dislike many other chefs' food as well.) And if it's a "small, perverse, increasingly irrelevant minority", I would be happy to include myself in that minority, for that minority might be one that tastes with full knowledge of its own subjective preferences. My dislike of Ducasse may reflect my according much less weight to aspects of an "overall" restaurant experience other than the cuisine. If a cuisine is gorgeous and other aspects are adequate, that makes the restaurant in my book. For me, offering different pens for signature, or clipping mint leaves off a little plant (which could have been clipped in the kitchen at the last minute), have no value (or slight negative value, due to their distracting nature). Mao & vivin -- How would you rate Ducasse, if you were just looking at the food, and disentangling the wine recommendations, etc. (not that that is practicable to do)? On ADNY, all I can say is that I am happy about Bouley's return

Steve -- In assessing the "relevance" of French cuisine, I see a difference between the marginal change in relevance (i.e., the increase in relevance over time, relative to other influences such as certain aspects of Asian cuisine or the so-called Spanish group), and the absolute level of relevance (which I consider preeminent, although I appreciate that other diners may not have the same assessment and respect that). The *direct* increases in the *spread* of French influence might be reduced in recent years, because French haute cuisine was already at a miraculous level at certain limited establishments to begin with and had already spread. But, when indirect influences (baseline techniques and flavor combinations) are taken into account, I would not even concede that there has been a reduction in the spread of French influence in recent years. Chefs inside and outside of France may be bringing non-French ingredients and sensibilities (including with respect to technique) to bear, but those aspects are not necessarily incompatible with the resulting cuisine remaining French with respect to chefs talented enough to integrate the new seamlessly into their cuisine. True, the chefs able to manage such integration are hard to come by, but, for me, even before such integration, magical cuisine is hard to come by. On appreciation of French cuisine by a large or small group of persons in the world, diners choose things that appeal to them (subject to meeting lower level needs, such as shelter, basic nutrition, etc.). French cuisine, to be done properly, can be labor intensive, product influenced and time-consuming. It is not surprising that, depending on the sensibilities of the diners of the world and their lifestyles and subjective preferences and economic means, many communities may not emphasize it.

The current Gault Millau magazine previews a restaurant in Paris called O Rebelle, at 24 Rue Traversiere, Tel: 01 43 40 88 98. The description indicates that the following items are available: kangaroo in curry with spinach, gazelle in a gratin, carpaccio of ostrich, filet of bison. Also, magret . The indicated price ranges are 23.80 euros for 2 plates, and 29 euros for 3. Wine apparently includes many South African and Chilean offerings.

LML -- There are indeed few chefs that, for me, can approach artistry (my list, while containing different establishments, would be equally short). However, many of the other chefs should not be faulted for trying, and at least certain of them are no doubt motivated by the desire to please their clients and offer up an inspired cuisine (even if they don't succeed in my mind in doing so). It is likely that certain chefs in the UK would fall into the "attempt with genuineness" category; many French chefs in France would. On whether chefs should articulate a vision, if a chef can rise to the level of artistry for some meaningful group of informed diners, I wouldn't consider it inappropriate for the chef to speak of his vision (even if I didn't consider the particular chef's cuisine to be laudatory). Also, for that type of chef, while the cuisine should be the primary vehicle through which the vision is communicated, it need not be the exclusive vehicle. I would say that for most chefs, indications regarding vision are premature and ungrounded in their capabilities, though. Over the weekend, I read in Gault-Millau magazine an article on Pascal Barbot of L'Astrance (whom I would categorize in the artistry category, by the way ). Here's a quote: The young people who are well brought up [culinary-wise, to be clear], less worried about apperances, very adventurous . . . . Emmanuel Renaut (Flocons de Sel, Megeve), Gilles Chonkroune (Le Cafe des Delices, Paris), Jerome Bartoletti (L'Ecusson, Montpellier), Claude Bosi (Hibiscus, Ludlow) and still others, participate, within different styles and context, in a profound renewal of the [French] cuisine of today. More accessible to a larger number of diners. . . ." (Note the listed chefs are not all "Grands de Demain", or Great Chefs of Tomorrow, like Barbot.) Have members sampled the cuisines of the listed chefs, other than Barbot? For example, Bosi in Ludlow for UK members?

Wilfrid -- I had kangaroo for the first time during the past year (yes, a relative late bloomer in respect of less common meats, although I am now making good progress ). It was at Sugar Club, again in London, as part of a decently priced prix fixe menu on a Sunday. I don't recollect the meat having been particularly gamey, though (note my recollection is hazy on this point). Squirrel is quite gamey, and the meat (at least as presented to me) was a mauve color, darker looking, in some areas. A while ago, I had had widgeon for the first time at St John too. Somehow, the name led me to think it would be a very small bird, which it wasn't. The sample I received was only slightly smaller than a pigeonneau. I was looking around for grouse other than red grouse, and didn't find much of it around. I have yet to taste ostrich, emu, bison or alligator meat, which I will order at the first restaurant I see each of them in. Do members have any leads on London establishments for sampling these meats?

Eucalyptus leaves, taken in large quantities, are supposed to have certain drug-like properties for animals as small as koalas. I wonder how the eucalyptus would affect the taste of the koala. This is going to sound gross (sorry, everybody), but I wonder how the pouch of koala or kangaroo might taste like. Any members tried, for example, kangaroo pouch?

Adam -- A new thread can probably be put off for now?The reason I ask about your reading is that I find reading about food (mostly in books about French restaurants or other food-specific books) to be an outlet (an avenue for expressing, though anticipation, comparison, etc.) desires about food. Reading about food can also prompt me to want to try the relevant dishes, so the way reading affects my relationship with food is rather layered. On potluck, I had some potluck breakfasts a long time ago (in my student days) that I enjoyed. The host would make all of the hot items (e.g., scrambled eggs, pancakes) and brew good coffee, but there would be coordination for guests to bring different juices, bagels, flavored cream cheeses, store-bought smoked salmon, fresh fruit salad (also less prone to mess-ups), etc.