docsconz

Matt, this is how I am understanding this for a fine dining restaurant's economics. Please correct me if I am wrong. Basically in order to succeed the restaurant needs to make a certain profit, albeit slim from a given meal. The food is essentially sold at a loss, but most of the profit comes from the wine and bar. If there is a consistent markup on all wine across all price points it helps the restaurant's bottom line to sell more expensive wine since there will be a greater absolute profit per bottle. But if most of the guests cannot afford the true cost of the meal then what will allow them to afford the cost of the more profitable more expensive wines? Anyone working within a budget will most likely stick to that budget more or less as far as the wine is concerned. One might argue that if that budget is going to be the determining factor anyway it might be worth getting the bigger profit from the higher markup, especially since anyone who will likely be drinking wine at a fine dining restaurant probably still will despite the price. That is fine, except that guests may be less likely to buy more wine than they otherwise would therefore negating some potential incremental profit and potential guest satisfaction. To me a restaurant seems more expensive if the wine list is disproportionately expensive and unless I am really blown away by the food I am less likely to return. That was one of the most disappointing aspects of Alain Ducasse at the Essex House to me. While the food was very expensive it was for the most part very good and worth the tariff (with a few exceptions noted in that topic). The wines were IMO particularly overpriced for what I received. They were good, but the one "expensive" wine in the flight was poured with an exceedingly skimpy portion. I chose the flight because it was chosen for the tasting menu and the list prices were no more reasonable. For most of the people dining there that is probably not a huge issue, but I prefer to get more value for my money. As such I don't have a burning desire to return there (at least not on my dime). Restaurant economics are very difficult, which I know you know. I also know that you strive hard to provide the best possible product at a reasonable cost. Wine is an important component for me and for many others, although ultimately I think most people go to restaurants for the food. Much in the same way that the ultimate quality of a dish depends on the balance of the ingredients in that dish the best and most successful restaurants find a balance in their charges for food and wine that reflect the quality of both. It is a difficult battle in upstate New York to do what you do so well and I very much admire you for it.

The Fat Duck is high on my list of restaurants to get to, but alas not yet. What did you think of that dish?

Other than for an article by our own JJ Goode, no. What is in it?

The combination is actually fairly intuitive. Have some orange juice the next time you have a slice of bacon.

No doubt the cost is extremely high, especially when using the finest ingredients in a fine environment such as you do. Those costs need to be covered. The food prices should reflect that as should the wine prices in a fair manner. There is always a balance between price and sales. The more the markup in most situations the less likely the sale. For people who are familiar with wine prices, an extreme markup is egregious unless there is a valid reason for it such as particularly rare or aged bottles. It is easier to justify a markup for exceptional food since so much depends on the skill of the chef and the restaurant. The wine is created by someone else (usually) and already has a retail price attached to it. For me twice retail or less is generally an acceptable markup for most wines. as I stated above exceptional wines in terms of quality, rarity and long-term investment by the restaurant are justifications for greater mark-ups. edited to add that I missed Juanito's post, composing my own. He made my main point more eloquently than I did.

With maybe the exception of the desserts, it would seem to me that the "male" tasting wsa the more interesting of the two. Is that an everyday occurrence there? Are substitutions permissible?

Chris, this was clearly a dessert and as such was sweet, but not overly so. This was balanced by the richness of the fat and saltiness of the bacon. It was this balance that really made it work as a dessert. Most of the sweet elements seemed to come from sugar or orange. In retrospect I'm surprised that there wasn't a maple component to the dish, although it didn't need one.

I am happy to say that I had another wonderful dinner last night at Erlowest. My last time there for Valentine's weekend was very good, but for the first time in my experience at Erlowest some of the food was flawed. Last night it was back to its usual fantastic self. We were served an amuse of lightly grilled rabbit tenderloin over spinach with diced apple - a fine introduction. My first course was a lusciously creamy carrot soup. Our waiter, Billy, described the soup as "the essence of carrot". One of our dining partners who had the same soup instead said "that it was more like what a carrot ought to be." I agree more with the latter. We then had a supremely well balanced seared foie gras with trumpet royale mushrooms, mustard greens, peach sauce and cornichon ice cream. This dish really worked well on all levels. I love trumpet royale mushrooms, the peach sauce gave just enough of a hint of sweetness, the mustard greens a dash of bitterness and the cornichon ice cream a layer of complexity and saltiness. The ice cream was not an intuitive addition, but it captured the essence of the best qualities of the cornichon without overdoing it. This was one of the best uses of off-beat ice creams that I've experienced. My main course was poached shot chukar with wild rice, black trumpet mushrooms and mirepoix vegetables. This was outstanding. The bird was flavorful and moist. Both breasts and legs were provided with the breast meat finely sliced. I noted no buckshot. My wife had seared rose perch with beluga lentils, braised salsify and tat-soi. She loved it. I managed a taste. It had outstanding flavor. Our friends both had beef tenderloin with pommes puree, haricots vert, carrots and roasted shallots and a deep, delicious sauce that Chef Secich explained to our friend was made over seven days. This is a great dish that I have had on more than one occassion previously. This along with his lobster are the most popular items on the regular menu. Our wine was a 2000 Gevrey-Chambertin from Domaine Dujac. It was bright with good cherry fruit and well balanced acidity. It proved a fine match for each of the entrees and is one of the better values on the wine list. The wine list at the Inn has good quality, but it is generally on the expensive side, a criticism that I've heard from a few people. Like the Dujac, it has some good values though if one takes the time to read through it. Since I like to pick out wines myself, I have not really tested the service for their recommendations as far as value is concerned. When I've had wine pairings matched with courses, these have generally been excellent with one specific exception noted upthread. Nevertheless, the value aspect of the wine program is probably one area that the restaurant could improve upon. The balance between food and wine prices is discussed in a very timely fashion here. One of ourfriends was celebrating his 50th birthday. He received his dessert on a plate with a happy Birthday announcement written beautifully in chocolate sauce. I didn't try his dessert and honestly don't remember what it was. He did enjoy it, though. Our wives each had the chocolate five ways with nothing left on the plate at the end. I had The bacon Experience, one of the most novel desserts I've ever had. It worked. Because of the unusual and special nature of the dessert I have started a discussion of it here.

I had another wonderful meal last night at The Inn at Erlowest, one of my favorite restaurants. When the new dessert was described, I had to try it. It was called "The Bacon Experience." It consisted of a plate that on one side had three crisp circular bacon strips standing upright. On the bottom of each circle of bacon was a small quenelle of ice cream. The first was a bacon ice cream, the second spinach and the third orange. Interspersed around the plate were leaves of bacon-dusted "candied" spinach and there was a triangle of orange gelee over a shallot custard and finely chopped pecans. On top of that was backfat crisps. This topic presents an interesting, but limited discussion on using bacon in the context of desserts, but this was the first dessert I have experienced or seen in which bacon was the centerpiece component and the overriding theme of the dessert. The bacon ice cream was astounding and worked beautifully with the crispy bacon circle. It was a stunning introduction to the dessert. It was a fine lead-in to the spinach ice cream and then the orange ice cream eaten last. The other components of the plate also 'worked". The candied spinach would probably open up many new avenues for spinach consumption for spinach-phobic children. This dish brought my culinary day full circle as my day started with bacon and eggs for breakfast. It proved an extremely fun and enjoyable dessert. Though it won't displace chocolate from the pinnacle of my dessert/pastry experience, nor would I want to have it regularly(I would certainly have it again), it was a welcome surprise that added considerably to my overall experience of the meal (which was already quite wonderful). To me this is what creative cookery is all about. It doesn't have to be something I would necessarily want to eat all the time. It should be something that fits into a particular context and fulfills its intended purpose, i.e. tastes great, looks great and is fun. This is not mutually exclusive to more traditional fare. I believe each has its place.

I came across this interesting topic while searching for another. I think it deserves resurrection. My answer to this question is no, although the unusual dish should fit into an overall grand scheme. If it is totally out of left field and entirely inconsistent with the rest of the meal it would be jarring and there most likely unpleasant for or at best unappreciated by most people.

While the question is directed at Felonius, I will throw in my $.02 to say the latter unless it is food that truly is worth the greater price point.

I assume this is a verdejo? I fell in love with the verdejos from Rueda on a recent trip to Spain. I have had a relatively hard time finding them in the States though.

In less than two months I will be back. I am very much looking forward to revisiting this fabulous market. Thanks for reminding me.

Beautiful dinner. Nice photos. How did the food taste? Did the dishes work as well as they looked? I had a Valentine's weekend dinner at a restaurant in which men and women each received different tasting menus built around a theme of aphrodisiacal legend. It was fun, though I wouldn't make a regular practice of the concept. That said I like the idea of having different dishes than my wife so that we could each taste that many more dishes. The problem comes in when I like her dish more than mine .

I agree that obscene markups on wine is a major turn-off to a restaurant for me. I expect the restaurant to make money and thererfore to charge a premium, but anything beyond twice retail for a readily available wine is IMO gouging. Rare, aged or otherwise hard to find wines present another story, however, as there is significantly greater investment in time, effort and other costs on the part of the restaurant as well as supply and demand issues. I also rarely order bottled water in NY restaurants, since I believe the quality of tap water in NY is generally quite good. If it is not at a particular restaurant, that is yet another turn-off. I don't typically order coffee at restaurants either, although that is not due to any cost issue. The bottom line is that I would rather pay a fair price for food and wine. The restaurant should make a profit on my meal, but it should be a reasonable profit. Ultimately the quality of the meal and the overall experience will lead me to judge whether the price I pay is reasonable. Whether or not that is at a profit point for the restaurant will depend on their skills both in the kitchen and behind the calculator.

Pinotage is one of the more traditional South African grape varieties, but it is not generally considered one of the better ones. There are exceptions, however. I could not find Zarafa listed on John Platter's Online Guide to South African Wines in which he has an A to Z guide to Cape wineries. It did not show up on a Google search of the site either. A general Google search for Zarafa led me to this site. Vinegar might be too good for it. It apparently is made by Mountain River Winery and according to the site linked to above costs $4/bottle. The site is by a fellow named Jason Rennie, who if he is not a member of the eGullet Society probably should be

Great site - JVB! That it is not original content is not important. That it brings together some of the best writing in the English language on Paris and its food is. I will bookmark this site and find it very useful in the coming months along with this Board, of course!

While this is starting to get off topic, I will say that yes, this is a site dedicated to internationalism and cultural pluralism, but English is the lingua franca of the site Getting back on topic - as far as the steaks - Vive le difference! I love both styles! I prefer the French way for more delicate cuts like filet mignon, but a nice grilling for a strip steak or porterhouse.

I love it rubbed on pan-seared duck breast.

But what did you have that was so good and why? Was it just really good quality or was it exotic? How does it compare to my two benchmarks - Kuruma and Yasuda? I know others here have compared it, but I am curious about your experience.

Joe, I have certainly come to appreciate your recommendations, but what was it particularly about this restaurant that makes you recommend it so highly?

Linda, thank you so much for the post and especially the link to photos. They are wonderful . Therre are even some of restaurants There really is no problem posting a link to a site like that. You and the others here have really got me excited about this trip. It is too bad that it is still so far in the future. The time will pass soon enough, though.

Is it that your tastes have changed or has the wine changed? Are they wines that were designed for aging or drink now wines that suffered by being held too long? Tonight I had a bottle of Kistler 1995 Dutton Ranch Chard that was still brilliant. I am not generally into chards as I used to be, but I still like the odd bottle now and again There are a number of reasons to collect wine. Some do it as an investment, others for love and others as a disease I do it because I want to maintain a variety of good wine over time. As a result, one recommendation I have is not to go too hog wild at first. Collect a good variety with good aging potential. My problem now is that even though I drink wine fairly regularly, I have run out of room to store more. That is good and bad. I have already made my investment and given how wine prices have increased it may have been a good allocation of my funds versus what it would cost me for the same wines now. The bad thing is that I am less able to lay away today's wines for future consumption. It may be that i wind up collecting in waves.

These are lovely wines. Do you have any particularly favorite vintages?

I must say I am very much looking forward to this trip. All of your comments and suggestions are really whetting my appetite. I was afraid of a letdown after dining at El Bulli at the beginning of the week, but Paris is one place where this shouldn't be too much of a problem.