docsconz

Thanks, Esperanza. Guadalajara is one of a number of places in Mexico I would love to visit. To be sure, when I do, I will PM you. Prior to this trip, I had been to Mexico a number of times, but those visits were either coastal or border towns (only once to a resort - in Ixtapa). This experience was very different than those and has really whet my appetite to return to explore Central Mexico, although I love the coastal regions as well. Most likely my next trip will be to Oaxaca when the CIA returns there probably in a couple of years.

Having photos and a description posted on eGullet? Why not? ← There are probably two important levels of "publishing" a dish. One is to show the dish and its ingredients to the world - and I think eGullet or other web means are fine. "publishing" in this context means having it appear in a permanent record with a date. Many chefs will have pictures taken of a dish or have it appear in a travel magazine article. The problem with just a picture is that people can then debate the question of how to do it, and can come up with lots of different ways. The more serious verison of publishing a dish is to give the recipe - enough so somebody could make it. That is what a patent is supposed to be - you disclose the secrets in return for getting a temporary exclusive. That is also what scientific and academic publishing is about - you have to show how you got the data and publish the data so that others can reproduce the results. It is the latter approach that Ferran Adria is doing - he publishes photos and the recipes. ← This is precisely what I meant when I suggested a description of the dish in addition to photos. I suppose a recipe is a more specific term than description, but the idea is the same. While Adria's books are wonderful chronicles, they are probably very costly to produce and beyond the reach of most less well-established chefs. The interest in his work is great enough that they probably recoup most of the expense if not actually make a profit. I doubt that would be do-able for the majority of chefs. eGullet or something like it presents a much more affordable alternative and actually lies within the mission of the organization as I see it. In fact a number of chefs have either directly or indirectly recorded their work here on eGullet already. Some who come to mind as being particularly well documented here and/or elsewhere include Grant Achatz of Alinea, Shola Olunloyo of Studio Kitchen and Alex Talbot and Aki Kamozawa of Keyah Grande with their ideasinfood blog.. Indeed this is a good way for some people to get on the radar with their work.

Rick's Last Session The next morning we awoke to another beautiful day. This would be our last day in Tlaxcala and it would start with Rick's last cooking demonstration. He made Chilequiles, Pork Tinga and simple red chile enchiladas. Enchiladas Rojas - Red Chile Enchiladas, Street Style. These are simple enchiladas with just the tortilla soaked in the chile sauce. The term "enchilada" simply means smothered with a red chile sauce. If the sauce was a tomato sauce it would be called an "entomatada". If a mole, an "enmolada" and so as I understand it. This was covered with some salad, crumbled cheese and a little chicken. Chilaquiles Verdes Horneados - Baked Tomatillo - Green Chilaquiles or "Tortilla Casserole". This is a great make-ahead breakfast dish and a great way to use left-over tortillas. The tortillas are fried that are softened in a broth then baked. This particular version was loaded with tomatillos, chiles, crema, cooked ham and Chihauhua cheese. Tinga Poblana, a classic pork stew with smoky tomato sauce, potatoes and avocados. Cheese with epazote and jalapeno. This cheese was passed around for everyone to try. These dishes made a marvellous almuerzo, after which we were treated to one final demonstration by the lovely Yolanda Ramos. She showed us how to make a michiote of lamb barbacoa. while she demonstrated the use of the outer membrane of the maguey leaf, the michiotes were made with parchment. Ms Ramos in action. The results will come later As we finished our Tlaxcalan education we gathered in the courtyard of our headquarters for a group photo. The rest of the day was spent at a Pulque Party. That is next.

Nathan does bring up many good points to ponder upon. My question is what would be the restaurant equivalent of publishing a dish. ← Having photos and a description posted on eGullet? Why not?

Cena de Todos The day visiting Puebla was a lot of fun, but the only time w had to rest was on the bus on the way back and that wasn't long. We had dinner to prepare! As I mentioned upthread we were divided into groups of four with each group having at least one culinary professional. Rick, Richard and Marilyn were available to oversee the process, offer advice and assist when needed. They had divided us the night before and assigned each group a class of dishes to prepare (e.g. soup, antojito, salad, main course, dessert, etc.), given us recipes from the assigned class and cash to spend at the market. Each group then decided in consultation with Rick which recipe(s) it would prepare. He warned us not to go overboard and bite off more than we could chew in the time alloted to preparation. He suggested that we consider that when choosing amongst the recipes. My group was assigned to prepare a soup. After going through the recipes we concluded that a Cilantro Soup recipe from Marilyn Tausend looked good and do-able. We also decided that we would put a little touch of our own on it with squash blossoms. Rick agreed. We had no difficulty finding what we needed at the market in Puebla. What a treat that was! In addition, we would have certain pantry items available to us. Team Cilantro Soup! (Everyone else is standing on a step or two ) Cleaning the squash blossoms. The cleaned blossoms Cleaned and cut cilantro. All of the fresh produce was washed in iodine solution unless it wass going to be thoroughly cooked. TCS sharing the kitchen. Mixing in the crema. OTHER DISHES IN PREPARATION: Making albondigas (meatballs) Roasted jitomates (tomatoes) Richard helping out with the pipian rojo. Making guacomole with tiny avocados criollos. More work on the pipian. With the food prep essentially done it was time for a Tequila Tasting. We were each given three glasses to taste representative examples of blanco, reposado and anejo tequilas. The blanco was Oro Azul, the reposado (aged in oak between two months and one year) was from Herradura and the anejo (aged for more than a year) was from a producer whose name I unfortunately don't remember and can't make out from my photo . They were all good, but I favored the blanco and reposado because they tasted more like tequila to me. The anejo was smooth and delicious, but I felt if I was going to choose something like that to drink I would generally prefer a cognac or single-malt scotch. The price for a good anejo is in that league as well so that wouldn't really be a consideration. As such, when i bought tequilas to bring home I did not buy any anejo. THE COMPLETED COURSES Guacomole with Crabmeat and Octopus - served with sliced Jicama Albondigas en Chipotle Quemado Meatballs in "Burnt" Chipotle Sauce. Sopa de Cilantro con Flores de Calabaza Cilantro Soup with Squash Blossoms. The queso fresco and totopitos - tortilla chips fried in lard were crumbled and sprinkled on top. Ensalada de berros y Cilantro Watercress and Cilantro Salad. The watercress was very spicy. There were also serrano chiles. The dressing was lime juice and salt. Arroz Verde Green Rice with Parsley, Cilantro, Lettuce and Chiles. Pollo en Pipian Rojo Chicken in Red Sesame Seed Sauce. Bread Pudding Two kinds were made. One had Mexican chocolate and bananas, while I unfortunately don't remember the other. Both were excellent, although I really liked the one with the chocolate. It was amazing how well all the dishes came out. Needless to say, this was a great evening! Next up...Chilequiles and then...Pulque and barbacoa!

Thanks, YT and others for the compliments. I do want to reiterate that while my interest in and knowledge of mexican cuisine grew during this trip, i am still very much a novice and welcome discussion and correction if warranted on any of the topics mentioned in this thread.

I think this istatement is a more interesting one. Would he actually dare to turn someone away based on this?

I will concur. At dinner last week we were well served with several half-bottles throughout. In certain situations 9e.g. foie gras) we were served a an additional glass matched with that particular course.

I and some others have found that the further away from noon the less perfect the pizza is likely to be. My understanding is that the oven begins to cool. While still hot it is not quite as hot as it is at noon. Also if the pizza is left standing for any length of time it begions to regain moisture and wilt. Nevertheless, your pizza does look remarkably underdone for Grimaldi's. Perhaps you got the pizza that ws supposed to go to the kids that sent theirs back!

Yeah, well things don't always go as one hopes... Although, the way things turned out, I'm glad I saved my wallet the grief... u.e. ← I'm sorry that you had such a negative experience, but what precisely did you have? I would be curious to know your specific reactions to specific dishes. It seems as with Alinea either your experiences at the restaurants or your preferences with food are vastly different than mine.

Sweet Puebla After our tour of Uriarte we had some free time to explore Puebla and explore we did. We visited a few glorious churches and also (surprise) managed to find our way to the street of sweets. It did not hurt that we were given some direction there. Amongst many other things Puebla is known for its sweets. Although much of what I tasted was in fact too sweet for my palate, it was interesting and quite beautiful in its own way. Camotes are sweets made from a sweet potato base with various fruit flavorings. These were ubiquitous from shop to shop. They came in many sizes and guises. The shops were colorful and had many different delights. These I believe are candied fruits, but would welcome a more authoritative explanation. My favorite dulce was one I didn't have a photo of. It was the coconut stuffed candied lemons. Actually they are visible in the lower left corner three photos up.

Molto E but not I just had to compare the WBBR in Napa to the one in Ferry Plaza Market earlier in the day just one hour before TFL He nevertheless did a yeoman's job stowing away the fine fare offered us

Uriarte Talavera Talavera pottery was a style and technique brought over from Spain early in their involvement with Mexico that took root in Puebla. Today it is the most famous and most generally highly regarded pottery in Mexico. After our lunch of cemitas we were given a tour of the factory by Francisco Uriarte himself, the 80-something owner of the factory. See here for a discussion of the history of Talavera in Mexico. Sr. Uriarte starting our tour. Mixing clay. New shapes from fresh clay. A cup drying out. The finishing process begins by cleaning up small impurities and flaws. Signing the plates. Hand painting the pottery. The paints. Unfinished pieces. Finished pieces. On the way out I ran into a group of students from my College Alma mater who are in Puebla for a term studying Spanish. They happened to be doing a tour after us. Next up are some Publan sweets before our group made dinner.

Chiles Rellenos Ricardo started his demonstration by showing us how to peel poblano chiles and clean jalapenos He then proceeded to make a fw different kinds of chiles rellenos includng: Poblanos Rellenos de Verduras. The vegetables included squash blossoms, corn kernels, onions, carrots and zucchini. This was covered with grated queso fresco and fresh crema. Chiles jalapenos Rellenos de Minilla a filling of canned tuna with raisins, capers, tomato, parsley and chopped green onions. This dish was very mediterranean tasting. and Chiles en Nogada Contemporaneos. Since the fresh walnuts necessary for the traditional version of this dish are only available in July, August or September, Ricardo made these with almonds. This can be made either sweet or savory. With the use of sherry these were a little on the sweet side. Serving the chiles rellenos. Each of them was delicious, although my clear favorite were the chiles en nogada. Unfortunately after this demo we were to bid hasta la vista to Ricardo. He is a remarkable man and chef. it was a pleasure to meet him, however briefly. Next...back to Puebla!

For a photo demonstration of making alegria see this post.

Tacos and Alegria made me happy! Somehow in my haste I skipped over a very important and fun part of the trip. The day prior to our visit to Puebla and after our pipian lunch we drove out to the ancient pyramidal ruins of Cacaxtla for a tour. This area was an still is prime amaranth country. After our tour we stopped by the home of a local family who are makers of alegria, the sweet made from amaranth. There we were treated to a cena of beef tacos with nopales as well as a demonstration of the art of making alegria.. Mural from Cacaxtla showing the growing of corn. The ears are represented by human heads s it was felt that corn was part of the creation of humans. A view of a pyramid from Cacxtla in the right background. An active volcano resides in the left background. Making fresh tortillas from masa for the tacos. Trying my hand at making the tortillas. It was not nearly as easy as it looked. With a little additional preactice I got better, however, anyone with a job making tortillas remains safe from me. Grilling beef, onions and nopales for our tacos. The taco. The family turkey or "guajolote". Pouring amaranth seeds and spreading them until they pop but before they burn. The white seeds are the ones that have popped. They are then swept ... ...into a basket My turn...once again easier said than done for a novice. Mixing aguamiel in with the popped seeds. Taking the sticky mass and punding it into molds. The mass hardens quickly. Raw amaranth seeds in the bucket and large plastic bag, finished alegria stacked in bags in the rear and chewy peanut bars in the front. More. On the left are large bars of alegria with raisins and nuts. these were my favorite. For anyone interested in making alegria at home, a good source of raw amaranth seeds is eGullet's own Rancho Gordo. When we returned to Tlaxcala it was time to freshen up before a demo on chiles rellenos by Ricardo Munoz.

Puebla Market We took a day trip to Puebla. What a fabulous city!. Our foray commenced with a trip to the ex-Convent of Santa Rosa, where legend has it the first mole was created. Unfortunately they did not allow photos of this extraordinarily beautiful old kitchen lined with Talavera tiles. Although beautiful, the kitchen must have been a nightmare to work in as the fires were lit inside without a chimney. Apparently most of the nuns were severely limited in what they were allowed to eat. Their existance as described to us was incredibly spartan. Here is a link to some images of the ex-convent and part of the kitchen. The previous evening we were once again divided into our groups with assignments to produce specific parts of a cena. Each group was given a number of recipes from which to choose. We were then to buy all the necessary ingredients at the market and were given money with which to do so. My group got off pretty easy and had to prepare a soup. We chose a recipe for Cilantro soup from our pile and added squash blossoms to augment the recipe. Here are some photos from the market. I took many more but decided not to add those that were substantially similar to those already posted from El Merced. Seafood shop sign on the way to the market. Beans on the street. Notice the sacks have the "Michigan" label. Given the variety here, I think only the sacks are from Michigan. Nevertheless US beans from Michigan have been flooding the market and under pricing the native beans. The same is true for corn. Heads up! I have no idea as to how this gets used. Trotters anyone? "Hey what's that down there?" We bought fantastic Crema from this man. Crema is a Mexican version of creme fraiche. This chile salesman asked me to take his photo. I hope he's reading. Dried husked favas. I bought some favas and spices from this man. Dried skunk is supposedly good for acne. This was from the pharmaceutical area of the market. Red-sugar coated bread. Tomates (tomatillos) While not directly food related, these two overdosed on the skunk. Live chickens awaiting their fate. Jamaica (hibiscus flowers) used primarily for teas and beverages. Another vendor who wanted his picture taken. More Puebla to come in a few days! In the meantime here are some photos from lunch that day. The Cemita Milanesa was one of the best sandwiches I have ever had.

I have a recipe I can PM to you, it's not very complicated. The challenge, however, lies in finding some "lima". I have had a very difficult time finding lima outside Mexico. It's not lemon or lime, it's sometimes known as "sweet lime", and it's very fragrant and much milder in taste than lemon or lime. You can do the recipe as well with lime, but the taste is not the same. Let me know ← ← I don't believe they are the same thing. I have had Palestine Sweet Lime and Bergamot from Rising C Ranch. I too found the lime to be less than fully compelling. What makes it plausible in the dish though is the fact that it comes from the Middle East. There is a strong influence of middle eastern (especially Lebanese) cooking in Mexican cuisine due to some heavy immigration in the past. Tacos al pastor is a classic example of this and are essentially the Mexican Gyro. It is not unreasonable to think that the same lebanese immigrants (or others ) brought "their" lime with them to Mexico and that it would have found its way into this fusion cuisine. That being said, bergamot might make for an interesting substitution, although the dish would likely be markedly different if the Palestine sweet lime was in fact the "authentic" ingredient.

Dinner tonight, though not perfect, confirms The French Laundry's place IMO amongst the best restaurants in the U.S. Details including pics will eventually follow.

Thanks for the interest expressed publicly and privately as well as clarifications and in some cases corrections. I have been having some trouble getting on eGullet for any length of time for the past few days and possibly for the near future due to some technical issues. I have a fair amount more to post on this and will continue when I get my technical problems ironed out.

So no more hounding my man - if what I have to say is not a welcome vantage point - if the people that brought this entire issue to light are allowed to defend themselves but we are not allowed to contradict them - then you will hear not another peep from me. ← I haven't been able to follow this thread for a few days until now. Nathan, I certainly do not mean to imply that you do not have "allowance" to discuss any of your thoughts. My statement was simply to say that the gyst of this specific issue has been continually distorted throughout this thread. I realize that you are saying that this is simply a matter of degree. To a great extent I agree with you and others who feel this way and that there is a lot of overlap and gray zone worthy of he discussion you have undertaken. This particular example is not gray and for anyone to imply otherwise surprise me. As for the blooming onion situation, it is no less deplorable for plagiarism there or any other situation. It is simply harder to pin down.

John, my understanding of basic Mexican white rice from Kennedy is that the rice it quite literally fried in a good amount of oil until golden colored, then drained of the excess oil, and then simmered in good chicken broth. Was the method you learned different? On that note, for purposes of comparison I would appreciate as many details as you can provide of the exact cooking methods you were taught in Mexico. Thanks. -Joe ← Joe, the rice is fried along with the onion and garlic in much the same way that risotto rice is before the liquid is added. Rick's recipe for the above rice did not call for as much oil as you mention. - certainly not so much that it needed to be poured off. In addition the rice wasn't fried that long to color it. The chicken broth was added after the initial frying, but then after an initial stir was essentially covereed and left to simmer. That is where it veered from risotto. There are other Mexican rice cooking methods that may be more similar to the one you are describing. Rick gave another one for rice cooked "the Mexican way" for a red rice that takes a markedly different approach than this one because it uses a very different rice. I don't have his handout with me, but I will try to cjeck it and return to this when I can.

Actually, I believe it is. From the mid-nineteenth century on, Mexican cuisine reeived a lot of influence from the French, so while it is certainly not a pre-Columbian tradition and is relatively recent, it still falls within the bounds of Mexican cuisine. It is interesting to see other influences on Mexican cuisine. For instance, I was astonished to learn that tacos al pastor are really a product of Lebanese influence. I will be posting some other sweets down the road.

Day Four: Almuerzo: Rick's Green Pipian After breakfast at the hotel (wonderful huevos rancheros with an excellent red chile sauce), we re-convened at our Studio Kitchen ( ) for another demonstration by Rick. This one featured a slow-simmered fava bean soup with mint and pasilla chile, Roasted mexican vegetables in Green-Sesame Pipian (Pipian verde de verduras) and Rustic Guava-Cajeta Tartlettes with Berry "Salsa" I did not take many photos of the preparation as many of the techniques had been used in prior dishes. Rick dripping "cajeta" or Mexican dulce de Leche on the tartlette. This particular cajeta was made with a combination of goat's and cow's milk that Rick particularly likes. i was not one to argue. The Fava soup. This was creamy and delicious. The favas used are dried and readily available in Mexican markets. I saw them in Philadelphia last weekend. The cheese was Mexican queso anejo, but according to Rick dry feta or parmesan are reasonable substitutes. The Pipian. This was extraordinary. Who says there aren't many vegetables used in Mexican cuisine? This dish included nopales, zucchini, chayote, verdolagas (purslane) and potatos as the roasted vegetable component with numerous others constituting the sauce. Special herbs included epazote and hoja santa. The tartlette. I fell in love with guava on this trip. The Cajeta was indeed marvellous and the berry salsa a fantastic counterpoint. Rick was a pastry chef before he went to the savory side. His experience and skill was amply demonstrated here. It wasn't particularly complicated, but it was delicious. Richard, Rick and Ricardo - The 3 "R" Amigos, serving the soup. After this delight we took some time to go explorer the archaelogical site of Cacaxtla and then visited a private home for beef tacos and a demonstration of the making of Alegria.

You make some good points Mike. In doing so you also bring up something I've yet to touch on - and this is in no way a jab at anyone, I really want to know and I think it's relevent. As to me it seems that plating has been one of the major issues here. How is this particular subject going to be affected now that the Alinea service pieces in question are commercially available from Crucial Detail? How many ways are there to plate on a squid and a bow or an antenna? If you buy these things and use them are you automatically limited to the ingredients you can use? Or are you simply copying by using one in the first place? Or does that notion disappear because you bought it and the chef made it available for sale? Edit: Also if things like the pictured Crate and Barrel candle holder (correct me if I'm wrong) are used by someone - does that make it off limits to others - or do they simply have to use different ingredients? ← Nathan, I think this has been hounded to death. It seems pretty clear to me that the issue that has generally been found to be a problem is the direct copying of a dish including ingredients, serving pieces and plating style without attribution. I think all people are asking is a good faith effort to make a dish either one's own or to give reasonable credit if that is not possible. I don't believe anyone here has been disallowing the notion of influence on a cuisine, a recipe or a style. I say a good faith effort because simply putting a sprig of parsley on a different part of a plate that is essentially otherwise the same probably would not qualify as such. If a chef is going to use an unusual serving piece and does something to put his or her own stamp on it - great.