docsconz

I've not been to any of them - but somehow, they already give me this same feeling. Perhaps it's because the two Panisses are in one building where as Bouchon and TFL are separated (is that right?)... ← I think it is more than physical proximity. I think it is a question of style. The French Laundry is true haute cuisine while Bouchon Bistro appears to be much more of a true bistro style. While the different Chez Panisse restaurants may be somewhat different, I have seen no indication in their current iteration of a substantial difference in the style of food, although downstairs may be a bit fancier than the Cafe. Whatever the case, the Cafe is marvelous and I would expect the restaurant to be as well.

I am sorry to see that it appears that Del Posto hasn't changed appreciably since my limited visit in December. This is a restaurant I very much wanted to like, but so many of the criticisms of it I am still reading remain consistent with my own experience back then. From Brenner's article: Not all evolution is positive. Not all mutations improve survival of the species. They are subject to natural selection. It would be a shame if Batali's "evolution" were of that nature. Then again, despite all the restaurant's apparent flaws, it appears to be busy. It reminds me of something P.T. Barnum once said.

if I remember correctly Wil told me they do. The way to know for sure is to call.

Yes, they are entirely different restaurants (not just different rooms). I mentioned some of this upthread, sorry if it wasn't clear. One of them is a full high-end kitchen, the other is build around a wood-fired oven. Thos. Keller opened French Laundry, a high-end restaurant; then later expanded to Bouchon, a more casual brasserie. A situation paralleling the Panisse case, though the establishments are further apart and differently named. If the more casual of the two were atop the original and called "French Laundry Café" then maybe people would confuse them. (Keller may have learned from the Panisse case ...) ← Thanks. It isn't readily apparent from the menus they have posted. For example tomorrow night's menu: While it may be different in fact, it does not read significantly different from the style or kind of ingredients available in the Cafe.

Room4Dessert Wil Goldfarb's dessert restaurant in NYC sells alginate on a retail basis. He also sells other unique products. The address and phone number are on the website, although as yet there is not much more information. You can get that here though.

I'm not sure any of us are really in disagreement here. Can the dishes one eats in Spain be replicated in the US or elsewhere? With few exceptions, clearly not. Can they be approximated? I would have to think and say that many more dishes can be approximated at an acceptable level. Can inspiration from Spanish dishes be used to create related ones in the US or elsewhere at a very high level? Here, I think the answer has to be yes. When I eat "Spanish" food in the US I am not necessarily looking to duplicate what I have had in Spain. I am looking for good quality ingredients and cooking that give me the feel of Spain the same as I would for Italian or French food. I would add the same for Asian cuisines, but not yet having been to any Asian countries (a failing I hope to rectify in the not too distant future) the best I can hope for is that I find the cuisine enjoyable and when I do have a chance to experience those cuisines natively, I can have some experiential reference point with which to appreciate them all the more. To finish this point, I am actually quite happy that at this point in time, the globalization of the world's food supply has not yet reached the point that all the world's cuisines are easily duplicable anywhere in the world. I hope that there will always be dishes from Spain or wherever, that I can only hope to truly experience in their original locations and that the homogenization of our food supply never reaches the point that local variations, uniquenesses and specialties are a thing of the past.

That's the issue lately when food enthusiasts visit from afar, and is the reason behind my previous posting here. I've visited the Café more than the restaurant (as an old regular of both). There is also the larger history, little mentioned so far on eG, of "spin-off" restaurants involving former CP (restaurant) personnel -- Fourth Street Grill, Jeremiah Tower's activities, etc. -- or closely associated with it, like Café Fanny elsewhere in town, and the wine bar César nearby that's relatively new. To some longtimers the upstairs Café is of a part, so to speak, with those other spin-offs, though it is co-located over the original restaurant. Certainly you should seek all of these places if you are interested in CP. (I'm just going to César shortly, in fact.) Again for orientation of anyone who doesn't know both, the restaurant is a more formal, fixed-menu, dinner venue. (If a place more or less in the format of a good French country inn can be called formal). Another (minor and semi-funny) issue associated with big-city visitors to the restaurant is when they hear all about it but find its country-inn style anticlimactic. I first encountered this reaction in early 1980s, others have written on it at length. Finally if a journalist does visit just the Café but then writes up something about "Chez Panisse" -- this started happening in the late 1980s after the restaurant was about 15 years old -- it is something of a shibboleth to regulars, or people who know the history well. It may sound reasonable, and even indignantly defensible, to the writer, just as "Avenue of the Americas" sounds reasonable to visitors to Manhattan (it's on the sign, isn't it?) Or "William-ette," sounds fine to Oregon visitors. Or the idea that San Francisco is nicknamed "Frisco," a foreign whim that locals never shared. Maybe not as strong as those, but you get the idea. Just a word to the wise. ← Are there stylistic differences in the food between the two rooms or are the differences simply within the approach to service and the specific dishes offered?

So after all your research, Doc, where did you end up going... and what would you recommend to fellow travelers headed to the Bay area in June? How did they compare to your wonderful best of 2005 list? Any of them a lock for your 2006 list? ← I got together with Molto e. Our specific reports so far can be found at these links: Chez Panisse, Jade Villa in Oakland, Manresa, The French Laundry, The Slanted Door, Bouchon Bakery, Mijita Zuni Cafe, Incanto and Ame. We still have yet to report on Koi Palace, Hog Island Oysters and Taylor's Automatic Refresher. I hope they will be forthcoming in the near future. We ate extremely well while in the Bay Area. As for comparisons that would be extremely difficult. My number one meal of the year so far remains Studio Kitchen in Philadelphia. None of the meals on this trip to California would crack my Top Ten for 2005, but that is not because these meals were slouches. 2005 was a particularly exceptional dining year for me - in fact my most exceptional ever. Each restaurant meal on my list was truly excellent in a variety of respects and all nearly perfect. In addition to having outstanding food, a number of those meals had personal associations that in my mind elevated them to exalted levels. As for 2006, it is early yet, but at least four meals are contenders for my top ten including Chez Panisse, The French Laundry, Manresa and Ame. I intend to try to provide them with some pretty good competition.

I've only been for lunch. Both times have had wonderful meals! My friends from the Bay area all claim the Cafe to be favored over downstairs (maybe as a factor of cost and / or reservation availability.) Preferences? thoughts? ← One factor may be that dinner upstairs is always a set menu, which may not always be universally appealing. I do not think I would have any problem with that though if the cooking were to be as consistently wonderful as I have experienced in the Cafe.

Alex Talbot aka twodogs has posted a must read article on WD-50 in his and his wife's blog ideas in food.. The article discusses what makes Wylie's and Sam's cuisine great, but also why the experience can be uneven at times. I have been fortunate that WD-50 has been consistently excellent whenever I have dined there. As these boards will attest, although vastly positive, the occassional story of disatisfaction does pop up now and again. The direct interaction between Wylie, Sam and their food is one of the things I truly love about WD-50. Perhaps the kitchen might run smoother and a little more consistently if Wylie were simply the overseer, but it might also lose some of the personality that makes it so special to me. I love the fact that Wylie and Sam are directly involved in cooking my meal. That I have not had a less than wonderful experience there may color my perception on this topic.

The Cafe most definitely takes reservations. I have now been to the Cafe twice, both for lunch. I have yet to dine in the restaurant for dinner due entirely to inconvenient logistics. The first time I went, I was unaware of the difference between the two. This time, logistics allowed for lunch at the Cafe as our best bet. The Cafe is so good though, it may be tough for me to do anything else I will need to mke a point of having dinner there when I return next to the Bay Area.

Victor, I am not sure that we are really disagreeing here. I am not saying that dishes especially specific ones can be absolutely replicated in the US or vice versa. That goes back to the argument about "authenticity". Can any ethnic cuisine really be "authentically" replicated in another venue? What I am saying is that the availability of authentic Spanish ingredients from Spain in the US is better than ever and continuing to improve with companies like tienda.com that will be importing jamones ibericos and othe Spanish meat products. Even with these products dishes will not be quite the same. What I am saying and what I think Jose Andres was saying is that some pretty good facsimiles can be and are made. In some cases to some people the end result may even surpass the original inspiration. I will give a specific example from Italian cuisine - spaghetti con vongole - spaghetti (or linguine) with white clam sauce. In Italy they use the little vongole clams that are like manila clams. The dish is good, but when made in the US with littleneck or even better IMO, cherrystone clams the dish becomes IMO sublime. These are different versions of the same dish. That doesn't mean that I have any less of a desire to go to Naples and enjoy spaghetti con vongole. That also doesn't mean that this example is the norm. I guess if one is wedded to the tastes of very specific recipes with very specific ingredients, variation from that tends to be less acceptable. What I believe you are saying, Victor and please correct me if I am misinterpreting your remarks, is that while similar dishes can be made and they may even be good, they could not be the same as the original because specific ingredients for those dishes simply are not available in the US. I agree with this. Where I think we diverge a bit is the significance of this. I love the fact that I can get calcots in Catalunya in the spring and can never quite replicate them anywhere else. I also love the fact that I or someone else can come up with some pretty good variations that while not the same can be pretty satisfying in their own right. If they make me think of and pine for the original so much the better. As someone who feels strongly about the importance of biodiversity within the Slow Food movement I revere and respect the ultimate locality of ingredients. I may enjoy my faux calcots, but they won't make me enjoy the originals any less.

Sounds like fun. I still suggest you at least try the tuna or swordfish depending on what is in season and fresh.

I always thought the string beans had literally been dried as in desiccated One learns something new every day.

From the postings I read, it seems that you live in the San Francisco Bay Area. If so, there are plenty of Asian grocery stores that carry Sichuan vegetable (such as 99 Ranch). You can find them in the section that lays out preserved vegetables. I found my packages in the refrigerated section. ← There is a lot to be said for living in the Bay Area, but I live in upstate New York. There is a lot to be said for that as well, but ready access to a wide variety of ethnic foods is unfortunately not one of them. I recently had the pleasure of a very food involved trip out there and have been posting a fair amount about it, which is why you got that impression. I do try to range a bit out of my home turf. In any case, I have loved this dish since the early 1980's when I was first introduced to it in New York City's Chinatown. I still order it any time I see it on the menu unless I know the restaurant doesn't do a particularly good job with it.

Thanks for doing this dish Ah Leung. This is one of my all-time favorites. I will have to try to find the Szechuan vegetable. When I do I will make this dish. Jo-mel's alternate method sounds good too.

One problem with offshoot threads is that it can be easy, especially when going from the specific to the general, to find misunderstandings. Nevertheless, what I was questioning was not your previous posts in reference to fabada or other specific dishes but your post that responded to mine after the topics had already been split. The inference that I took from your post was that Spanish produce was globally and necessarily better than that in the US. While I will admit that much routine Spanish produce is better than the average and even above average American produce and that perhaps the best Spanish produce is in many cases superior to the same in the US, the best American produce is competetive with anywhere in the world from meat to seafood to garden products. Mind you I did say competetive, not necessarily superior. Dishes produced with top quality American ingredients in the Spanish style may not be quite the same as the traditional ones in Spain, but if done with skill and care will still likely be delicious. It is Andres' general comment that I am agreeing with. using substitutions will almost guarantee that the dish will not be the same, but if the substitution is of good quality the dish should still be good, albeit different. In some cases it may even be better. I apologize if I was wrong to read your comments the way I did. I appreciate your clarification, even if I still disagree with your conclusion.

Victor, I wasn't referring to your posts when discussing "absloute superiority" I had quoted Butterfly's post and was addressing comments therein. But to address your issues: of course there are dishes that are nearly impossible to replicate such as lechizado. Even that though is not necessarily impossible depending upon one's sources. Iberico may very well be the best pork in the world. I am not stating otherwise, but the blanket statement made (not by you) was IMO over-the top and unfair. The availability of top quality Spanish ingredients in the US may not yet be as good as from some other countries, but it has improved markedly in recent years and is in fact relatively reasonable. One can now make a wide array of Spanish recipes in the US without losing too much (if anything in I would argue most cases). All this is not to say that the situation could not be better yet. I very much hope it continues to improve. Yes, I do want my Iberico here! Jaleo is as much a "Spanish" restaurant in the US as any broadly ethnic restaurant can be in another country to which it is not native.

In 1600 piquillo peppers or pimenton would not have come across as being particularly Spanish either.

While I will in no way disparage the quality of Spanish ingredients as many are truly special, I will not suffer the total disparagement of non-Spanish ingredients either. Unless one has had all the various breeds of pork or lamb available in the US, I do not see how one can claim absolute superiority over them in any culinary situation. Indeed use of different ingredients will make a dish different, but I posit not necessarily inferior. Even if the new ingredient is superior, it is conceivable that someone may prefer the native ingredient for a particular dish, which is fine. To think otherwise in terms of absolute superiority is simply a matter of cultural chauvinism. As for romanticism, I do believe that has a lot to do with it in many but not all cases. I also think that is ok. Of course, there are particular ingredients available only for certain times of the year in minute quantities in limited locations. I enjoy seeking those things out as much as the next person and they cannot be replicated elsewhere. Those things, however special, remain a very small part of a national cuisine. I believe Andres' point remains perfectly valid. His point was not an absolute.

I agree with the statement above from Jose - the ingredients barrier is overrated. That is not to say that Spanish recipes of Spanish dishes traditional or otherwise made in the US will be the same as those in Spain, but they will still usually be quite good. The biggest issues are not with cooked items, but items eaten raw such as really top flight jamones, that are nearly imposssible to come by in the US. Certainly there are other dishes or ingredients that are impossible or nearly so to replicate, but that phenomenon is not limited to Spanish produce. Italian food in the US is not quite the same as it is in Italy either. It really doesn't matter to me how well food can be replicated in one part of the world from another. The replicated dish can be exactly the same, but if I could I would rather have it from the source if for no other reason than the romance of it. That I can get good Spanish or Italian food in the US, and I can, therefore in no way diminishes my desire to visit those countries and experience their cuisines there. Short of being able to do that, I am very pleased to be able to get excellent Spanish food in the US in places like Chef Andres' Jaleo for example.

I think that is "Shrimp and Chive Dumpling". It looks like they have chopped chive and minced shrimp inside wrapped inside a dough that is made with powder from glutinous rice. First steamed, then slightly fried. Cantonese name is "Siu Jing Bao" (Crystal bread). ← Thank you, Ah Leung, that is indeed what it was!

We did order ala carte, although there was a fixed menu. This was the fixed menu for lunch the day we were there. Dinner downstairs is, I believe, entirely by fixed menu. I don't know about dinner in the Cafe.

It would have to be one of the hairs from the crown of my head! I really couldn't find fault with anything. I even enjoyed my iced citron green tea!

I had dim sum at Jade Villa this past March and thought it was pretty good and actually comparable in quality if not variety to Koi Palace in Daly City. Unfortunately I wasn't able to sample much as I was with my friend and his young twin sons. What I did have though was very tasty Shrimp stuffed crab claws. I get this any chance I can. While I have had better renditions of this, these weren't bad at all. Pork stuffed dumplings. Good. Chicken feet. These were very tasty indeed. Sticky rice in lotus leaf. Delicious. I don't remember the name of this dish, only that it was good. It was a dish that my friend wanted. I tried that and ate most of everything else Softshell crab with garlic sauce. I am a sucker for softshell crab but I had my doubts about this dish when I selected it because this is not really soft shell crab season and I have had some very poor examples of this at even some very highly regarded dim sum palaces (e.g. Silver Pond in Englewood, N.J.). It was a test of sorts for me and it passed with flying colors. The flavors were strong and true and the texture was perfectly crisp and not in the least greasy. Jade Villa may or may not be the best dim sum place in oakland or the Bay Area, but everything I tried was at least very good. I would be very happy to have this near where I live.