docsconz

I have only just started the second full day.

Making Masa The next day began with a demonstartion of making masa that commenced at our base of operations. Yolanda Ramos, a local anthropolgist and cook, and her assistant Nati led us through the process of taking dried corn, soaking it with lime overnight, removing it from the liquid and grinding it at the nearby town molino (millhouse). They already had a batch soaking overnight. Rick and Yolanda with presoaked corn. Nati is in the background. She and another assistant, Consuela were invaluable during the time we spent in Tlaxcala as their background work enabled the rest of us to concentrate on the fun stuff. Pre-soaked field corn in the container. This had soaked in a lime solution to become nixtamal and then the nixtamal was soaked overnight in fresh water. Yolanda showing the caustic lime solution used to make nixtamal. Adding the lime solution to the dried field-corn in a watery bath. The leftover lime slurry is also used to season the clay comal. The now vibrant yellow nixtamal is taken from the water and rinsed. The nixtamal was brought to the nearby town mill for grinding into masa. I am amazed that this woman still had all of her fingers as she would push the nixtamal right down on top of the grinding mechanism. Do not try this at home. She is a trained professional. Masa from the mill. A photo op.

Thanks Caarina. Yes, finding the Munoz books is the hard part. Even he wasn't able to get any for us in our group! I am looking forward to the book he is writing with Marilyn Tausend in English.

Saturday night we were welcomed into the private home of a Tlaxcalan that would become our base for kitchen and cooking activities. That evening a lovely cena (dinner) was made fo us to enjoy. Upon entering the courtyard we were offered what may have been the tastiest Margarita I have ever had. It consisted of Cuervo blanco, a little bit of sweetener and lime juice with a salt rim. Maybe it was the lime juice, maybe it was the sweetener or maybe it was just the context, but it was delicious. We were started with taquitos de requezon con epazote and a litle salsa verde. Requeson is similar to ricotta cheese. Epazote is an herb that was shown in the post above. This was light and tasty. The soup was a dry fava bean "caldo" with little nopale cactus bits. This was hearty and delicious. The nopale gave it a nice citrus-like zing. A separate course was rice with epazote and strips of poblano chiles. The principle course was a michiote al vapor or steamedchicken in parchment. Although the course was similar to one we had had in the afternoon the flavors were substantially different to remain interesting. In addition we had a salad with a mustard vinaigrette. Also like in the afternoon the dessert was another bunuelo, this time without ice cream. The relatively light cena hit the spot after a day of heavy eating. By the end of dinner we were all pretty exhausted. The next day was going to be an interesting one.

What are recados?

You can copy all day long and say you owe everything to the people you copy - and that is acceptable. If you copy and don't pay homage then..... In this world, especially in Art - there are many readily identifiable individual styles - you might even go as far as to call them "identities". If you go to Art School, take a painting class and hand in work that looks like Salvador Dali, your teacher is gonna be like, "This is technically well executed - but it looks just like Salvador Dali". How many artists have been dismissed in history for having a style or "identity" that is too close to another known individual? ← Nathan, I believe we have reached agreement.

I would think if it was being sold as the Arpege egg it could be a problem, but if it was sold as so-and-so's version of the Arpege egg it would less likely be so. If I try to emulate someone but fall short it is not the fault of the person I tried to emulate. Ferran Adria should not be held in any less regard for someone else's poor rendition of a "foam".

I managed to try a few Yucatecan dishes during my ttrip, but it wasn't in the Yucatan. I enjoyed tamales wrapped in banana leaves and the scrambled eggs with black beans. That was enough to whet my curiosity for Yucatecan food. Besides, I really enjoy saying the word "yucatecan". I will be very curious to read of your experiences after your trip.

You raise an interesting point, Nathan, but I think you really are comparing apples and oranges. If any of the chefs or non-chefs such as myself have blatantly copied someone else's work without any substantive changes or alterations and attempted to pass it off as his or her work i.e. "creation" that would be extremely hypocritical. Where there is a very wide spectrum, however, is the role of learning and influence. Techniques can be taken but used in such away that the resultant product is different than the one the technique was originally designed for or techniques can be applied to different or novel ingredients. That is a very different situation than what is being discussed here, yet that is the kind of situation I feel that you keep trying to press. The situation I described is the essence of creativity - stretching and changing bounderies. Taking someone else's words or artistic expression and recreating them verbatim may show excellent technical skill in the form of a culinary or artistic product, but little in the way of creativity, unless the actual production of the product was completely different or in the case of a culinary product it looked exactly the same as another creation but tasted completely different. In the latter case, it would indeed be a new product and not a plagiarized copy. The point I was trying to make with Jamie was that attributed copies of say 17 disparate styles at one seating, while not necessarily creative, would demonstrate a level of technical skill and beinteresting solely on that basis if for no other reason. Nor do I think that it would be ethically flawed.

Great pics as always, Jeff. I was awed watching you work at SK. We could barely eat the next day. After a nice breakfast at our B&B, we hoofed it to the Italian market on 9th St. (Hey, I grew up on 9th St. in Brooklyn!), where we shopped a little, bought some great fresh Italian bread and sampled on some nibbles and then went over to RTM to sample pretzels right out of the oven (awesome) and an Italian pulled pork with greens from D'nik's. Unfortunately, we then had to hightail it for our train to NYC. It was a great weekend.

Time for a little more... Once we arrived at The Hotel san Francisco in Tlaxcala and settled in it was time to go over our spoils from El Merced. Each group displayed its trophies and then Rick got up and described the attributes of each item that he had us buy. In this we we got a good broad overview of Mexican produce. The timing was ideal as we were just starting the trip. We also got to taste or smell many of the items in their uncooked states when appropriate. I will go through some of the presentations with photos: Rick describing a chayote, a squash-like vegetable. A chicozapote. Rick peeling a Platano Dominico, a very small sweet banana variety. Dark piloncillo, a version of the minimally refined mexican sugar used in so many wonderful ways. The dark piloncillo has a higher molasses content than the lighter piloncillo. Zapote negro or black sapote (no relation to mamey sapote so far as I can tell). I did not get to try this the one opportunity we had. Avocado Criollo or native avocado. This avocado is small with a fairly large pit. Though the yield is meager, it makes a mean and tasty guacamole (which literally means "avocado sauce"). Huazontle greens. These were used at Las Cazuelas to make tortas with cheese in the middle that were served bathed in a red sauce. Guanabana or soursop. This fruit is often used in desserts and drinks. Epazote, a commonly used herb in Mexican cooking. Despite this I am not aware of ever having had it before this trip, although I am sure I have if nowhere other than Topolobampo. This herb was one that a lot of people on the trip weren't crazy about, especially in its raw form. It has a certain medicinal quality to it. There were other items including all the individual chiles and various mango varieties amongst other things, but I didn't have decent pictures of them (not that these were the photographic highlights of the trip - at least I hope not). Edited to correctly identify chicozapote. Thanks to ASM for pointing out my error.

I'm not sure that this necessarily follows the rest of your statement. I would think that if a chef was able to copy 17 or so different styles, do them well and accurately attribute them in a homage fashion, that in itself might be quite an original and worthwhile feat. ← Had that been the point, John, I'd give it a strong perhaps. Greatest Hits menus are becoming as commonplace as ubiquity itself - but they are easy to dance to. ← The intriguing thing would be the ability to copy well 17 disparate styles at the same time

I'm not sure that this necessarily follows the rest of your statement. I would think that if a chef was able to copy 17 or so different styles, do them well and accurately attribute them in a homage fashion, that in itself might be quite an original and worthwhile feat.

I have no idea what Shola charges to cater a dinner, but Jeff L nailed the Studio Kitchen tab in post 466. That cost is the net cost of the dinner inclusive of tax and service. Wine, transportation and lodging are obviously additional.

(emphasis added) ← Very interesting, Steven, particularly .

Shola may or may not make any money on these dinners. I certainly hope he does, but whether or not he does or how much he does, there can be no question in my mind now that I have experienced it but that he is doing these dinners "purely for the love of the food".

I think to most folks familiar with the academic literature on plagiarism, this will seem an open and shut case. The only possible open issue I can find here revolves around the specific standards -- if any -- used in the culinary world. A given discipline or art does have some ability to set standards for itself. But while it is important to examine those standards, no set of standards can cover for an outright misrepresentation of another person's ideas as one's own. I think failing to take this incident seriously would be a failure to take the culinary arts seriously. The culinary inferiority complex needs to end. The relevant practitioners need to acknowledge that cuisine can be art -- that it can represent the height of the human spirit and intellect -- before there can be serious talk of standards. ← I fully agree with this statement. It is important to remember that in this case the question is not a legal one, but one of ethics and respect and yes respect not just for the specific chefs involved (although that is an issue as well) but for the culinary arts in general.

I don't think anyone is defending plagiarism. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm personally asking where does plagiarism begin? And if you are guilty of plaigiarism at any level, at any line - do you have any place being upset if you are plagiarized. That is also what I took from the last line of Pedro's post. The whole, "he who is without sin cast the first stone" deal. And for damn sure - make sure you don't "live in a glass house". ← I would say that the whole stagiere tradition is one that not only tolerates passing on of ideas and style but downright encourages it. It does not encourage theft. If one takes a technique from someone and uses it in an original way achieving a novel result that is not plagiarism IMO. That is creativity. If one takes the same thing, delivers it and calls it one's own that is plagiarism.

Victor, I was previously unfamiliar with Goizeko Wellington, although based on your description it sounds marvellous. My experience with Goizeko Kabi in Bilbao is that it is a restaurant centered on traditional cooking. Your point is that the issue is really one of good food (traditional or creative) vs. "fad" or "fashion victim food" is a good one and doesn't contradict mine. Good food is good food regardless of the style or even whether it is part of a fad following the influence of others. Not all fads or fashions are bad and if done well such as how you describe the use of the "spheric" can still be transcendant. The problem with "fashion victim" food is when it gets distorted from its original context and becomes a cliche of itself. Some fashions become tradition because they truly work. Ultimately, I do not believe we are in disagreement, but saying similar things in different ways.

This is very instructive, Pedro, but Guerin and Pardos did the right thing in acknowledging their sources and influences. They gave credit where it was due. That the French chefs responded the way they did was only appropropriate as they received what they really wanted - the recognition. Is anyone here really defending the practice that jumpstarted this discussion? It would be one thing if the copieed dishes at least bore acknowledgements of the fact that they were copies of very specific dishes. Degree of influence is a gray area. Direct copying with attribution and permission is clearly ok, direct copying but without permission is gray zone that probably wouldn't win a chef accolades, but would probably fall in the morally acceptable range, but direct copying in a plagiaristic fashion? Where can there be an argument here? I would have been thrown out of College if I did that.

Interesting observation, Victor. Thanks for sharing them. I love today's innovations food and I love the bastions of tradition. I do not see that as being mutually exclusive. I would deplore life without either. I daresay that it is easier for a fan of innovation to enjoy and appreciate tradition than a stalwart tradionalist appreciate innovation, but why? Great food IMO should be all that matters. It is too bad if Michelin or other guides don't see it that way in France, Spain or wherever.

This little interlude to Philly and NYC has set me off my timetable for recounting my Mexico trip. One of these days maybe I will learn to do one thing at a time Wow, you philly EGers are a lucky bunch! -Mike ← Indeed they are. They have had something truly special in their midst. I am very fortunate to so far have been able to experience this once. I will make it a priority to return to this or whatever variation Shola offers up in the future after his sabbatical. One of the many nice things about this Philly eG crowd is that they are well aware of what they have and seriously appreciate it.

By the way, welcome to eGullet, pen_h!

Great thread topic. I will attempt to answer Sizzleteeth's questions as well. Influence is ubiquitous. Everyone is influenced by others both positively and negatively. It is certainly courteous to recognize conscious influences, but impossible to recognize all subconscious influences. While courteous, it shouldn't be necessary. The whole world of the stagiere is built upon being influenced. The chef of a restaurant using staiges counts on the staige being influenced and disseminating ideas. The chef gains in stature by subsequent emulation with their proteges utilizing techniques and styles. However, if that protege was to blatantly copy a recipe and claim it for him or herself that is clearly a different story. Copy it and offer it as homage to the originator? Sure, that is where imitation is flattery. As for photographs of food on the internet - it cuts both ways. I see it as protection for the truly creative chef. While another chef may get ideas, the presentation at least should be protected. Where they gray area starts coming into play is when chefs start doing riffs on original creations. At what point does the new creation belong to the chef? Is it a change of one ingredient? A slight change in plating? Obviously, the closer a recipe and presentation is to the original the clearer the infraction is. I agree though, that ultimately it is a question of ethics. If a dish is clearly a take on a previous dish identifiable as a creation it should be credited as such. If it is a dish that is a variation on a dish within a cultural domain or widely known, "credit" is not only not necessary, it would be difficult to attribute.

I had to run for a few minutes Another view of a great dish. This slow cooked, but not sous vide cooked dish was literally perfectly cooked. I love the sous vide cooking technique because "perfection" or other interesting effects are relatively easy to achieve on a consistent basis. This dish demonstrates what can still be achieved by the skillful cook with older techniques. These two went side by side with the pork. It was an interesting mix as they highlighted different aspects of the dish. Both were successful. Some preferred the Madiran, while others preferred the Pauillac. I was happy to have the opportunity to drink both with that incredible dish. It is funny. To me this was the least special dish of the evening, but that is like considering what is the least beautiful aspect of Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel ceiling. It was a delicious dessert but compared to the other dishes of the evening it was lacking in pyrotechnics and surprise. Nevertheless, the flavors were clean, the presentation beautiful and it was a fine food finish to a truly fabulous dinner. No, this is not another photo of the jerusalem artichoke soup with grapefruit foam. It is a photo, Katie, of the "Moscato Float"!