Wendy DeBord

"but we can't all be elite", I can't sell what the top guys can. Yes I want to learn about what the best of the best are doing. But the trickle down effect isn't trickling as fast as some of the East coast e-gulleteers think or push. Foam is something mid-westerners laugh at. There's like 4 restaurants in the mid-west that can sell foams. Savory into desserts....NOT READY YET. I think step 1. is educating head chefs on desserts. Make them care, make them have a reason to care. Dealing with the average neighborhood hot shot chef- he doesn't know what panna cotta is, what's a tuile, etc... They know cake and ice cream. I struggle to educate them but it's an extremely slow process. Move too fast and you offend them or make them uncomfortable. They have their set ideals of what dessert is and you (the pc) have to fit into that, like it or not. The huge portions I thought started at a steak place by the owner (not a chef- yet alone a pc). Are you telling me a pc started that? WHO? Even when these guys try to sell desserts they struggle. They can't figure it out. I worked with one place that was trying. They set out one slice of each of their desserts on a silver tray then garnished it with purple kale leafs with a strawberry on it and told the waitstaff to walk it around. Yeah I'm going to talk that place into less sweet desserts that blend with their menu......... I come in and make desserts after the head chefs been selling his scarie gross attempts at dessert. They don't realize the damage that's been done takes along time to correct. Maybe the place puts a little money into hiring me, but then they don't follow thru. I have to work with this chef who comes over and tells me how he doesn't need to follow recipes and proceeds to teach me his techniques. "Elite" meaning there's only so many top places. Only so many jobs where this conversation about reviews can happen. I love coming here and reading but in general many of the monitors are in the 'elite' working situations. Only so many chefs and non chefs visiting here that can relate to this level of conversation. I have e-gulleteers privately messaging me questions their too embarrassed to post. I still run into basic problems and questions, I'm sure not past the Silvertons, Gands and Luchetti's. And from what I read here I don't see too many others that are either. Doing excellent pastry work is alot harder then it appears (Fat Guy). There's so many aspects- it's overwhelming at times. There's only so many pc's brilliant enough to hold expertise in alot of areas of pastry.

And so I keep going too. I'm obviously not working for the job stablity (I have none)........I just want a decent job as a pastry chef. There's so few, and there's less and less everyday. Right now I'm only working part-time, the opportunities aren't there. I left a great paying (could have opened some real doors for me) job a couple years ago. I learned to leave screwed up positions since then and I'm totally happy being part time working for a terrific young chef even though it's a limited and handicaped job. (Thank-god I have a spouse who brings home a decent pay check.) It's hard on the ego to step back, I still long for more intensity in my work-but I keep on looking. Trust me, they never see me sweat and I push like you wouldn't believe and kiss butt more that I'd like to admit. I'm a chubby, lost my looks, middle aged female in a young male dominated profession. I've fought many a fight and I keep on. I understand the ropes. But damn it, I hate being beaten down by my own. There are reasons why things are the way they are. YES I whole heartedly aspire to make things better and help others along too. But we can't all be elite and I still have to knock on doors daily. Fat guy "work around them".....I'm talking more basic then that. First they have to be open to hiring a pastry chef. I'm a freelance pastry chef. I'm first hoping to get them to think about "why" they should hire me (have a pastry chef if only as a temp.). They're all happy buying pies for 3 bucks each, they think they gone "upscale" by buying in some gelato. Yes I do my best to do good work under constraints. I challenge myself everyday to do something new in any way I can sneak it in (often working off the clock and buying in ingredients and equipment with my own money). Sometimes the constraints are so great that I can barely do the work (total truth). If I complain, they don't need me- they'll to back to buying in. That's why I can pat myself on the back and don't need a critic to tell me I'm o.k., I survive- I'm open to a good conversation and I don't wish to offend or shut down the lines of comunication. But I'm screaming lets talk to each other and not down to each other. The kitchen is divided enough-lets not break ourselves into good pastry chefs and bad.

I'd like not to post this but I'm going to anyway. I'm good at biting the hand that feeds me too "How many pastry chefs really attempt to make themselves and their work an intregel part of the meal?" Do you have any idea how few chefs there are that ALLOW us to even speak up and offer to "add" something to "their" menu!? VERY DAMN FEW! Wake up, where there's an ego there's trouble working with it. I'd love to participate! I HATE having to see and tasting items that are below pare and not be able to voice up my assistance! BUT that's the reality of how the kitchen works. "Mind your own business" is survival. Rule no.4 don't offer what isn't asked of you, cause it ain't your business. Yes in your defensive you mention those pastry chefs are the ones who will define the future of this profession at the highest levels. "Small opportunities" start and end with the head chef........well actually the owners. Cause it's all about the dollars.......and that's a subject of it's own, but the real bottom line as to why things aren't better. It's not that there isn't potential but you can't get your foot in the door to get anyone to listen to you.

Sorry, I'm back (i have some more rant left in me). First, this business (pastry) isn't big enough and healthy enough for us to nock each others work. I understand the monitors here are in the top etchalone (which I can't even spell) of this career but for many reasons some of us can't devote our entire lives to our career or may realize that there's more to life and want to experience some of it before we die. "positioning themselves in the marketplace" equals self- employment or unemployment for the newbies. "poorly trained and underpayed in the postition of pastry chef".........If I had balls I'd consider myself kicked in them! My god, some of you all think we have alot of choices.......I'd love to de-getto myself but I can't get a second spatula or god forbid a second bowl to my half broken mixer. I have two choices take it or leave it. The more of us who leave it just make things that much worse. Try thinking about what it's like in "the norm" restaurant, have you forgotten? It's lovely to talk about el bulli and the laundry....I aspire and work my ass off just like everyone else to do the best I can and constantly learn........but lifes road hasn't blessed me that opportunity (yet) and I have to slum to make a living so I can keep on growing.

Go to http://www.chipsbooks.com/ If you like books on decorated cakes get Beryls catalog, they've got more decorating books then any place I've ever seen. (sorry I'm not finding the address in my favorites, a quick search should have it).

I have to take it down a notch-cause I'm not doing fine dinning(not by choice). I deal with the guys that are only above average in their own little neighborhood. This topic is so huge and so entangled I hardly know which points I want to make. But I'll stab at a few. I get tired of fighting daily ON the job and trying to provide an excellent product. When you do good work, the guy left to plate it f-s it up at every turn. NO ONE wants to plate pastries- it is the truely "shit job" in the kitchen. But as far as making desserts- I see them run scared every time I ask for assistance, not as you'll all described as "not wanting to". I can't tell you how many places where the head chef cuts the wedding cakes cause no one else has any experience with a cake. There's no basic understanding of baked goods in average kitchens. I constantly see breakfast pastries stored in the refridgerator for weeks-then served. No one understands why the client isn't eating it........it's crap. Same with cakes and tortes, they don't get covered, their held too long, etc... But kitchen after kitchen no one cares to do it right. They sweat over their nightly specials and only see the entree as important. It's a big revolving situation. Which came first the crappy dessert or the customer who wouldn't buy a crappy dessert. But no chef ever looks in the mirror and wonders why they have no dessert sales. They don't even think about the money they could have made. Over all in most kitchens dessert is just a huge hassle. A large majority of places (taking all restaurants into account here)are very happy doing ice cream on all events. And they even f---- that up! They scoop it the day or two before and let it sit uncovered in their busy freezers. It's all depressing (at this moment in my head). There AREN'T pastry jobs!!! NO one wants us on their staff. When you do well and recieve accolades.......your punished by the hot side who now are jealous instead of congradulatory (were always the enemy with-in). Am I jealous about not getting reviewed? I'm relieved........that just buys me more time to work there before the chef gets pissed off that I'm getting to much notice and taking some of his kisses that blow in the air. Knowing that your doing good work comes with-in. I don't care how good it taste or looks, I know when I've slam dunked something and when I stuggled and when to kick myself and when to praise myself. Attention is nice but the minute you place value in it, you've lost. I can't blame people for not buying desserts out. I don't. At least with a package of oreos you get a good value and know what your getting. Pastry chefs---------it's a lost cause, we've lost the battle....and I don't see things getting better in the future.

I'd normally be a ditto with everyone elses posts but I hurt my foot a month ago (bad enough to seek medical attention) and got a lecture from the foot doctor. Personal info: I have a pinched nerve that took me down like I was shot. I was working in the yard (wearing clogs). I'd swear I broke something-but I didn't. Had to see a doctor! I've lived in clogs my whole life when they weren't fashionable and weren't seen in american kitchens........but the doc. gave me a big lecture on them. Because you use your toes to grip them as you walk they stress your feet. She's very neg. on clogs, thinks birkenstocks are really bad of all of the clog brands. I had bought inserts for my birks (thought that would please her), but there's something about the foot bed that's wrong in them (according to her). Bottom line to all the lectures. If your feet hurt it's your shoes! Either they don't fit correctly (which most don't) or they aren't good shoes. She insists I wear a good pair of gym shoes as work shoes (plus I need custom foot beds for my arches). Those hugely ugly nerdie shoes that old people wear are my other choice (I'll pass)....I'll wear running shoes instead. Take the foot bed out of your shoe and study it. If you don't see clear impressions for each one of your toes, your shoes are too narrow. I have wide feet and everyone one of my shoe beds have my big toe and my pinky only leaving 1/2 a toes worth of impression. So I'm suposed to take my foot bed from an older shoe with me when I buy new shoes. If the old bed doesn't fit into the new shoe loosely I'm not even trying them on my feet. HTH but if your like me, you'll still wear your clogs (I can't part with mine), but I don't wear them for long periods any more.

Oven temp was fine.....the dough was shot (had to be in their freezer for a couple years). But I wouldn't hesitate to buy this in the future.

They bought it through European Imports if anyone's interested. It didn't bake off correctly- NO Puff! I've never seen a puff pastry that didn't puff. How dissapointing-the taste was good supprisingly.

Kiwi won't set in mousse, might not work as a jam either.

I have Finest Desserts and The Roux Brothers On Patisserie, but I wasn't aware of a earilier book. Would someone please mention the title of it? I've been sitting on the fence with Claudia's book. Part of me wants to buy it, but as of yet I haven't. I don't work on either coast nor do I work in a high end restaurant. I don't question her influence, simplicity is always stylish (and it doesn't hurt being physically beautiful either to further your career in a concrete jungle). But I can't sell her work. I think it's rather heavy on frozen items and short on baking (which is harder to do, I think her book fails there and is lazy). I don't know it seemed to me that you were pretty good at fitting chefs into boxes Steve . I'm guilty too. I think there's only a couple books we all could agree on as having excellent content and inspirational value, but they'd never be consider a beginers books. I find as much value in Deslauniers, Braker, Medrich, Silverton, RLB even Mrs. Fields books as I do in all the others that have been mentioned (and not yet mentioned). I own some Betty Crocker too. Inspiration comes from with-in, how your thinking- as you view even the ordinary. I have my days were nothing inspires me and days when good old Pillsbury turns on my light bulb. That's why I collect a wide range of books and you can see how chefs build upon others work. Some of my older books from the 30's to the 50's have some really good teaching sections for beginners. They're the first contemporary american writing on baking and I can think of many books that haven't improved on this (like the Regan Daily Book). This leads me to start threads asking peoples opinions on specific books and specific recipes with-in....because no one book has it all. I've made recipes out of the Roux brothers book that I thought fell short and ones out of Deslauniers that were pretty darn good.

I don't have to open Herme's book-I know which one your mentioning mjc....it looks de-lish-well like which one doesn't... Thanks nightscotsman I think you hit it- making vol au vents would be the way to go. I'll spray them with sugar while baking to coat and then coat the inside with melted chocolate then they should handle being stored in the freezer. Thanks that gives me lots of ideas!!

Wow, I'm in aue of all the great successes of the people that visit and moderate this site. All of you published people-my hat's off!

I inherited this on the job. Chef wants me to use it up in my mini pastry's this week-BUT I only make pastries they keep in their freezer 'ready to eat'. I can do palmiers and spreading a ganche between two. But I really should get more creative....unforunately my mind isn't co-operating with me. Any creative ideas for using up chocolate puff pastry dough in a ready to eat stored in the freezer mini pastry? Also any baking tips using this....same temp and handling as reg. puff pastry?

If you find a copy will you pm me, I'd love the help? I really want it-but 140. is too much. Tell me about Lesley's book????????????? P.S. Remember the original poster was looking for a beginning book. Are you still picking Luchetti's books for a beginner (not that they are difficult, just a little more sophisticated in MO)?

Ditto on Four Star Desserts, it's a fab. book. I don't own the first, but I'm currently looking for it. I'm not familar with Lesley C's book, would someone please expound on it?

I'm not that thrilled with Gale Gands recipes. I find her to have a similarity with Martha. When they first started neithers work seemed tested and could be hit or miss. But since those earily days Martha has definately gotten her act together (and is often publishing other well known chef's recipes that are fab.) and I think the same is happening with Gand. She seems to be coming into her own and producing better work. I've made a couple items from her off foodtv that were decent. BUT Gand has MANY recipes that are clear knock-offs from other published recipes.........with-out making any significant changes. I have the "flour, butter, suger..." cookbook and I look at it so rarely I can't remember it's title. I still stand by Glisslens book as being the best starting point over all the books mentioned! P.S. I looked at Nick M's book yesterday at the store. Who ever did his food styling should have been fired. Most of the cakes have a huge crumb and look horribly dry........with the exception of a poppyseed cake that looks almost raw. If photo's speak louder then words-I'd run from that book.

Do you know what you want to learn? Sorry but I can't agree with the votes for Nick M.'s books-any of them. Every recipe of his I've ever done was purely average at best. Also came across a couple that didn't work and were way off. I'm just not a fan of his work. Rose Levy B.'s books can be hit and miss too. I find them too wordie and although she's published several great recipes most of them are average (she covers too much ground, more isn't always better), I think she's more of a scientist then a baker. I do reccomend Baking With Julia, there are many fine recipes in the book (from wonderful PC's). But you'll be left to understand technique and the science of baking on your own. But if you could buy just one book and it also had to seriously teach you about baking, I'd reccomend Glissen's book, "Professional Baking". I know you asked for a beginning level book but I think this delivers a beginning to intermediate level. Most of the recipes are NOT complicated, very easy to follow, work well and taste pretty good. It covers a wide range of baked goods and non-baked items. You could work from this for a long time with-out out growing it. Another beginner level book that will also provide some education (or at least a dozen or more great keeper recipes)is "The Bakers Dozen". There are many really good recipes, plus some explaination of technique.

Any idea who's making that caesar dressing Panera uses?

At the risk of you all thinking I'm lazy, let me beat you to the punch and tell you I am. Making salad dressing in my house isn't going to happen we have different tastes. Worse, I like the dressings at several chain restaurants. I like the caesar dressing at Panera. Used to think it was their own recipe until I got the same exact flavor caesar dressing at another chain. So who's brand is it and where can I buy it? Also I swear I've had salads with ranch dressing that had a kick to it (I love it). OutBack's ranch does. Are they buying it 'as is' or adding pepper to a hidden valley packet stuff? I'm also interested in good brands at the grocery store. I have very bad luck randomly buying them. Their usually too thinned down or I don't like the intensity of their herb selection. To aid in any saught out advice: I prefer red wine vinager to balsamic and creamie thick- not too sweet dressings. Heavy garlic is just fine by me too. I can't bear to throw out any more dressings, I'd love to know your opinions about which brands are good.

Definately use pistoles, buy them from the same place your buying your blocks. It's rare that a wholesale co. doesn't have them. I hate chopping up blocks! I always use pistoles and I've never had an instance where the chocolate pistoles behaved any differently then block chocolate. Also if I do have to use block choc. I break on the side of my table into smaller blocks, then very coarsely chop, then cusinart it to a working size.

Yes it's equal weight.

I'm starting to understand what your doing Elyse and I have to say it sounds like your really thinking things thru and are off to a better start then many who enter the professional baking business. I'm excited for you! O.k. worse comes to worse and you can't afford a bigger mixer, we can definately help you with what items will work best with less equipment or a smaller mixer. I think that the real answer is-working smart with what you have....which you already seem to be doing. I guess I come back to asking you what your real exact intentions are for your new mixer? (I hope I didn't miss reading that in an earilier post) I'm guessing it won't increase your batch size (with a KA) only your speed?

I couldn't live with-out a 20qt and make a go of it. I find that a huge handicap. Becoming profitable with baked goods depends upon volume. Even more so if your selling out doors with-out coolers. If you can turn this into a nice little business you'll imediately need to up size your mixer. To my way of thinking I'd rather not buy something now that I'll need to replace shortly. If you don't have a larger mixer and a freezer to hold product, that means you have to do more last minute baking. It makes it that much harder on yourself to be successful. If I was just desperate and I couldn't get a 20qt I'd have to have two kitchen aids......less then that, I'm a brat I couldn't do it. Skip the pro-line model it's way too much (imo) I'd get 2- 5 or 6 qt reg. kitchen aids for the price. AND a 20qt doesn't require 20qt.s of ingredients in it, you can still mix a small batch in that, but you can't mix a bigger batch in a smaller mixer.

It's a hard topic. I think Rachel makes a great point. I've had the same experience-people pressing me to make items that didn't contain an ingredient they couldn't eat or low fat desserts. But then when I'd jump thru their hoop and make items for them, and they didn't buy them or they buy 1 item once and not any more then that. In general (although there are exceptions) people on special diets don't eat out as often as average and aren't used to the price of speciality goods because they make them themselves. They can be really hard people to sell to. Your doing this to make money. Yes, there's a huge market for speciality baked goods BUT all those people aren't going to show up at you market weekly and buy. I think you have to do what's best for your pocket and make what's the best selling and most profitable items you can. Please forgive me if anyone here is offended by my generalizations........but I believe them to be true.