MatthewB

The polls are still open.

Some "techie" is fooling around. Give it some time is my hunch. Edit: Something goofy is definitely going on. I tried http://www.springrestaurant.net/taste.html--I had the URL cached--and received a "File Not Found" message. Someone's overhauled the site. The question is: who did the overhauling?

tommy, you're absolutely right. Sam does need some slack. I don't think he had an ill intent. Nor am I willing to ascribe *any* intent to Sam. The issue here is that "intent" is very difficult--if not impossible to near impossible--to ascribe to someone's writing. Thus, we will always have a gap between our "words" & our "intent." My concern has been with Sam's *words,* not Sam's intent. In many (& most, if not all) ways, Sam's intent is irrelevant. What is relevant--in the context of a public discussion that utilizes the written form--are the words that Sam chooses to post here. Choose your words wisely for others can only read your words, not your intent. (And this isn't about the Midwest nor the Heartland. It's about words concerning an exclusive "we"--a "we" that seems especially troublesome to use in a public discussion--that dismissed the original poster. If anyone deserves an apology, it's FireIslanddish. I believe that eGullet can extend much better welcomes.)

I think we're finally getting at the issue. FWIW, I'm not--& wasn't--taking this personally. Rather I found it odd that you choose the examples that you did for the type of customers that may be causing Babbo to not be the experience that you desire it to be. I would have pursued the issue even if you had substituted "Sri Lankan" for "Midwestern." I'm cosmopolitian in that way, I guess. I'd prefer to term the "differences" as social rather than cultural. That's another issue, but if we need to pursue it, we can do so. I'll use social differences for now. For me, my charitable interpretation of what you're saying is this: "Tourists" are ruining Babbo because they don't understand the social etiquette of Babbo (i.e., the social etiquette of eating out at finer dining establishments.) If I'm misunderstanding you, please help me along. Now "tourist" still comes across as perhaps unnecessarily pejorative but I'm looking for some shorthand. Perhaps someone has a better term? I'll use "tourist" for now. The upshot of this is that I believe Babbo has encouraged the "tourists" to visit. Mario has been engaged in a lot of self-promotion & Babbo is the most often named of his eateries. I'd say that he's gotten what he's asked for--if "tourists" are really the problem. I'm all for--and quite familiar with--the forms of social etiquette that you've described, Sam. But I guess unless I'm in a private club, I don't expect that everyone will heed those unwritten rules. (And even in private clubs, unwritten social rules are either re-written or broken all the time.) I guess I feel that we have to cut the "tourists" (or perhaps, the "masses") some slack. If we don't, we infer that we're calling for public places that only allow entry by those deemed to fit into some form of new aristocracy. Perhaps we're back to that notion of inclusion that we touched on yesterday.

But you did state this in response to my direct question: You also said this: You still haven't explained what these "cultural differences" are. What is it that you, Sam, *do* in places like Babbo that I wouldn't do? What is it that I would do, that you wouldn't do? (Remember I've lived nearly all my life in the Midwest.) Share your secrets.

And some NY'rs can be characterized as snobs. Some? Surely. The majority? Nope. One dictionary's definition of snob: 1. One who tends to patronize, rebuff, or ignore people regarded as social inferiors and imitate, admire, or seek association with people regarded as social superiors. 2. One who affects an offensive air of self-satisfied superiority in matters of taste or intellect.

I like the concept of cosmopolitan. Its meaning has some interesting history concerning the proponents of the French Revolution. But let's not get sidetracked on that. For me, being cosmopolitan includes the virtue of graciousness. But I'm a simple Midwest boy. (As an aside, here's the definition of graciousness from www.dictionary.com: "marked by kindness, sympathy, and unaffected politeness: gracious to visitors; a cordial welcome; a genial guest; enjoyed a sociable chat.")

Interesting. Why would one use "Midwestern" when they could simply write "unmannered"?

How did "the" "Midwest" get into this thread in the first place? I still don't understand the following slkinsey comment . . .

My SO & I were in SF from Christmas to New Year's Day. We were shocked by how casual the locals dressed while eating out. The only exception to this was New Year's Eve dinner at Fifth Floor.

IMHO, just be yourself. Be courteous, dress appropriately for the restaurant, . . . I consider myself courteous & I aim to be ever-so-slightly overdressed for the occasion. But I'm still curious as to what Midwesterners should be doing while dining in NYC that we aren't doing here in the Heartland. In other words, I *can't* just be "myself."

Dress appropriately. You mean I should wear my church clothes?

I don't think it's ethnocentrism. It's just cultural differences. Get a feel for the place and try to fit in. Understand that things won't be the way they are for you at wherever you are from. It's no different, really, than the adjustments a New Yorker would have to make coming to your town. It's hard to put my finger on it. I was raised in a big East coast city by parents from the rural South (father) and all over the world (mother). I spend a lot of time far away from home growing up and have always traveled a lot, both within America and internationally. So, for whatever reason, I have always had a very easy time automatically fitting in to whatever the social norms are wherever I am -- to the extent that I often engage in what linguists call "code switching" and change my accent and mode of speech depending on where I am and who I am talking to without thinking about it. To me, it's all about understanding where people are coming from. Like, for example, some people have a difficult time understanding why Italians would never have a cappucino after dinner. It is because they consider cappucino a breakfast drink, and having one after dinner would be like following a fine meal with a glass of orange juice. So, when in Rome... well, I think we know how the rest of that one goes. Anyway, that's enough OT wandering for me today. That doesn't help me much. Let me try again . . . What is it that Midwesterners *do* when eating out in the Midwest that Midwesterners *shouldn't do* when eating out in NYC? And . . . What is it that Midwesterners *don't do* when eating out in the Midwest that Midwesterners *should do* when eating out in NYC?

Sam, Might you please spell out the ethnocentric social conventions for a NYC restaurant? I'm curious as we may be visiting NYC soon & I'd prefer not to offend anyone whilst dining out.

*May* sound horribly City-centric & elitist? You're being much too kind with yourself here. But what do us Midwest hicks know anyway?

Lest anyone miss the joke . . . What *not* to do with buffalo mozzarella

Ummm, pizza.

That's the place! As far as replacing that song, put the JB remix cd on.

Welcome to eGullet, Richard! Raffaela's by Pagano's puts out some good food. (Joe is a hidden treasure in these parts.) That would be a solid choice. What do others think? (Also, if we end up there, I'll coordinate with Dave Russo for wine pairings.) And, last but not least, I'd prefer the earlier date--also for weather reasons.

Definitely braise.

As Gideon has already posted--and I, for one, believe him--he's not Chodorow's nephew. Carry on.

That's--more-or-less--what Grimes said three weeks ago. Grimes hit the bullseye (to mix metaphors ) right out of the gate.

One should be able to right-click the image, choose "Properties" & get the URL. Just make sure you don't use a double jpg extension with Imagestation. (If you've double JPG extensions in the URL, just delete the last extension.) It's not that easy. You can't link to the viewing page. I do the way I originally described all the time. I guess I'm just a Jedi.

One should be able to right-click the image, choose "Properties" & get the URL. Just make sure you don't use a double jpg extension with Imagestation. (If you've double JPG extensions in the URL, just delete the last extension.)

Hmmmm, I'm thinking I may have to try both the beer-can & a butterfly at the same time for my own test. FWIW, I don't use beer-cans. I've a couple of ceramic pedestals that are the size of beer-cans but with a broader base. Much more difficult to tip over.