
Steve Plotnicki
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What do you think "artisanal" means?
Steve Plotnicki replied to a topic in Food Traditions & Culture
Peter - Sorry I didn't mean to imply that the average Joe can do it, I mean it to say that people who care about the difference will usually be able to tell. In fact I am amazed sometimes at my wine friends and their ability when tasting a wine that they are able to tell if the slightest bit of the process was commercialized. -
Awbrig honey, how is it that Ballast-Regime and I managed to have amazingly similar experiences with bad dorade and you have only been served perfect meals? I am just a mere pup at Trotter's, but Ballast-Regime seems pretty expert to me. And he says that the place is erratic. In fact he says that it occassionaly turns out "crap" dishes. What do you think accounts for the differences in opinion here?
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Ballast Regime - I thank you wholeheartedly for that report and I point to it as a perfect example of the information on eGullet being better information then what you can get from traditional media sources. What I find frustrating about a place like Trotter's, is that part of the reason they continue to be erratic is that the level of restaurant reporting in this country, and as such diner expectations, are at a lower level then the standard I would like to see reviewers apply. Considering how many rave reviews you see about CT's, my meal and your descriptions of meals do not jibe with those raves. I wish the standard applied was more discriminating. We would all eat better for it.
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I don't understand Cabby's comments about J-G vs Trotter's as I find that J-G has the most inspired cuisine in NYC when they are on their game. In fact they are one of the few places in town where they even have a defined cuisine. Most of the places just serve French food without a whole lot of personality to it. Now Trotter's I don't see as inspired at all. But like I said, it seems to revolve around a cooking philosophy that I haven't yet put my finger on. That will make do in lieu of a strong cuisine.
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But I would find it refreshing if a pastry chef would recalibrate a banana split to incorporate something savoury. Like making it with Kulfi and a sauce that was spiked with something savoury. After eating 10 dessert courses in Chicago I went to Boston the following Monday night. And overall I enjoyed the kulfi and banana cinammon ice cream I had at Vanessa's in Cambridge more then my fancier desserts in Chicago.
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Jim - If you have thre time and the inclination to do so, can you tell us the difference between a country goy and a city goy?
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Personally I like desserts with savoury spices. I'm the one who loved those curry dusted truffles at Vosges in Chicago. And I love that cardamon iced coffee they serve at Hampton Chutney. But it's this obession with mint and clove that is killing me. It makes everything taste like Listerine. Some of the things they give you today are really on the edge. I'm an old fashioned guy. I'm happy with a nice banana split.
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Glyn is an especially hard scorer isn't he. I would say that my two meals at Blue Hill where I chose my own menu (one with Dan & Alex and one with Dan & Mike) the meals rated 5 and 7 respectively. But I would say that since I have been letting them do the driving the average meal is between 7 and 8 with certain dishes meriting as much as 8 1/2 to 9. But there have been some stinker dishes too which were down around 6. But this isn't to say that if I ordered off the menu my meal wouldn't be terrific. I just haven't done it for awile. I think the issue you raised about different preferences is a more complicated issue. Sometimes I feel that lack of experience and preference are confused. Often when I say that, people mistake it for a statement that says I am better then you. And while that might ultimately be the case , it really isn't a competitive statement. That's because in my experience, and this is particular to Blue Hill, in order to enjoy a meal there the way I enjoy it, it helps to have to have eaten and enjoyed your meal in a certain type of restaurant in France. But if you haven't done that, your assessment of the meal is somewhat impaired. Of course this doesn't discount people who just won't like that style no matter what. But as I said in my previous post, my kishkes tell me that more people on the whole don't get it for the reasons I outlined above then there are people who wouldn't like it if they had a better understanding of the context they cook in. But once again, the best way to overcome this is to put yourself in the chef's hands. I should also add that the tasting menu at certain restaurants is a worse situation then just eating off the regular menu. This can be the case at Union Pacific. The food there is so packed with flavor that a tasting menu can be a wearing experience. So I don't think there is a set rule. But in general I still think that your best bet is the chef's tasting menu. I can't prove it but, my kishkes tell me that retaurants view people who order them with higher regard then people who walk in and order your basic three courses. Robert40 - I think it is a bad thing to try and quash discourse because an owner of a restaurant might not like the criticism he gets on eGullet. If anything we are fair here. And if many of the people here are having a problem with ordering off the menu at BH then they should be able to say so without being concerned about it. In fact I am sure Dan & Mike would want to hear it because if anything, they would want to improve that aspect of their business. Isn't that why we are here? For some silly reason, I hope chefs the world over read what I write and take it seriously and improve their restaurants as a result.
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Baruch - No the point is that Clos Mont Olivet makes better CNdP then Guigal not in 1999, not in 1998 and not in 2000. It's every single year and it's been that way since the year gimel. Guigal in fact as others have said, makes a particularly lousy CNdP. And if you don't know that already, you haven't had a lot of experience with CNdP. Because I am certain if you had extensive tasting experience with Guigal and the other CNdP's you would be in agreement with us. As for the Chevaliers du Tastevin, I was just invited to a Tastevin dinner for next monday. In fact I have a close friend who wants to nominate me as a member but I have so far resisited because I hate wearing a tuxedo. Hollywood - You have asked one of the hardest questions to answer. The truth is that nobody knows for sure. All we can do is guess. But you have to remember that wine history is hundreds of years old and people assess ageability based on a wine having similar attributes to older vintages that have aged well. But the key issue is the balance between the fruit and the acid. Problem is, the fruit is surpressed quite often and it's hard to tell. Sometimes I have found that ageable wines have a roundness to them on the tongue and I have found that with time that roundness converts into ripe tasting fruit. But it takes tons of practice to do this and nobody is 100% perfect. This problem rears it's head not only with young bottles of wine but with ones that have been cellared for years. About 6 months ago I brought a bottle of 1961 Conterno Monfortino to Eleven Madison Park and on opening we announced it dead on arrival. But one of us (there were four) poured himself a small amount, smelled it and then tasted it, and told the sommelier to just leave the bottle settle on a side table. When the cheese course came he had them pour him some wine and it was just fabulous. Who knew? The three of us would have dumped it down the drain. So it really comes down to some people with special tasting ability who can smell and taste a glass of wine and pronounce it will age and improve for 50 years and be right about it. Sort of like picking hit records.
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I find that there is a lot of either/or in this thread and not many shades of grey. And I think that most meals that you get in restaurants fall into the shades of grey category. But Tommy keeps holding on to words like "markedly" when there isn't even an agreement on what markedly means. I also think that Charles is onto something when he says that there are certain among us who want to be "wowed" by the cuisine. It's just that some of us are sometimes wowed by small and unsual flourishes. I might have told this story in the past but, I have a friend named Sasha who is the best wine taster I know. He always tells the story of how tasting 1947 Cheval Blanc changed the way he looked at $10 bottles of wine(1947 CB is arguably the greatest bottle of wine of the 20th centuey.) From the day he understood what made '47 Cheval great, other wines that shared an attribute, or were reminiscent of it in any way, evn if they cost $10 a bottle, raised their standing in his eyes. And in many ways Blue Hill is like a bottle of wine that displays the attributes of greater restaurants. Of course to know that one has to have expertise in that area. Not just the ability to tell the difference, but the experience to connect the dots to other experiences in order to calibrate the expeerience. If you read my review of Trio, that is written without a whole hell of a lot of dining experience on my part in those types of restaurants. But if I spent two weeks in Spain getting a primer in that style of cooking, I am sure I would take a somewhat different view of the place because I would see the cooking in a different context. I suspect that a large part of the problem for some people is learning the proper context in which to assess the restaurant. All of this gets to the nub of this issue which is what a restaurant expresses when you have dinner there. And if you want to eat somewhere that makes a strong statement about food, I don't think Blue Hill will be your favorite. You would probably like Union Pacific or Anissa more then BH. They serve food with bright and bold flavors. But if you are the type of person who wants to be surprised by the chef serving you farm raised pork loin along with carrots and chestnuts that come from black dirt, so they are as sweet as candy, and to prepare them in a way that expresses their natural flavor, you can eat really well at Blue Hill. In fact, when they hit it right, better than any other place in the city I can think of that serves food in that style. I think there is another aspect to allowing the chef to choose your meal which is that it allows them to teach you about their cuisine. Food is such an awkward way of communicating. We are so much better off when the chef appears and tells you why the food you ate is special. How would I know about the black dirt carrots if Dan and Mike didn't appear at the table after the meal? Or if Chef Nao Sugiyama didn't explain the special Japanese mushrooms while I'm sitting at the kaiseki bar? Or why the "Special Eel" at Sushi Yasuda tastes so special? There is no way better to learn about these things then a chefs menu. But a prerequisite is that you have to want to learn. And in order to do that you often have to dispense with preconceived notions and cede control of the meal to those who have the more knowledge then you.
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Your love affair with Chinese cuisine:
Steve Plotnicki replied to a topic in eGullet Q&A with Ed Schoenfeld
Gee I'm interested in a top quality banquet. Maybe a way to keep different groups of people happy is to organize a different level of banquet for varuous tables all at the same time? -
This is just one more extraneous inference from my original point. I don't think anyone has suggested this. However I must repeat what I did say which was; I've found that my meals are better when I let the chefs choose We can all speculate as to the reasons why that might be the case. But it has happened to me enough times that I can rely on that being good advice. And I am saying that as a general statement, not just about BH.
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Near a Thousand Tables by Felipe Fernandez-Armesto
Steve Plotnicki replied to a topic in Food Media & Arts
This is a good point but doesn't it hinge on how people discovered they could control fire? And wouldn't the most obvious reason to organize a society be for the purpose of using the energy from a fire? For example, wouldn't ensuring that a fire didn't go out, or that people had a fair chance to use it for warmth or cooking necessitate things like a code of conduct when one was around it? I'm not sure there is an answer to this question bhut, wouldn't most societal rules stem from a funny mix of shared and private property? -
Actually I suggested something more than that. I suggested that people say they have read about the chef's menu meals on eGullet (meaning ones written about by people like you, me, Cabby etc.) and ask the restaurant if they would be kind enough to prepare them a meal in the same manner. That advice given on my part resulted in a tirade about special treatment, accusations of arrogance, criticism that I am imagining the meals are better then they really are, and half a dozen other remarks that have nothing to do with my suggestion. Me on the other hand, I should only wish that when I am going to a new place, or a place where I've had less then the best experience in the past, someone who knows the ropes gives me good advice about what to do. Sometimes the nincompoopery around here astounds me.
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Cabby - What happened with the wine at Arzak?
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Snoop - In your desire to be critical, you are accusing me of doing something that I don't ever do nor have I recommended anyone else do which is order a special meal. All I have said that I do, and have recommended for others to do as well, is to let the kitchen choose the meal. As Tommy said, they might choose something off the printed menu. But they might choose something which isn't listed on the menu. But maybe you are just not paying attention. I guess you're not a very good Snoop are you?
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Marcus - When I was putting the review together I used the Trotter's website as a way to refresh my recollection. And one of the things that became apparant was how much and extensive the changes were. Turns out, it was a mix of some ingredients that must have been fresh that day, mixed and matched with ingredients and preparations from the chef's tasting menu. But it wasn't a radical departure from the norm. I think other places serve tasting menus that are a greater departure then what they served us at Trotter's.
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What's the difference between pork stomach, pork belly and tripe?
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Your love affair with Chinese cuisine:
Steve Plotnicki replied to a topic in eGullet Q&A with Ed Schoenfeld
Okay let's get Suvir involved in this. Is there a limit to how many people can attend? Or can you throw it open to everyone on the board? And if it makes a difference to the quality of the food, say so. -
Gee and I thought I was going easy on you .
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Baruch - We all get the point but we disagree with your main premise. Marvin & Co are not at all interested in recommending good quality, well priced wines to their readers. They are interested in recommending commercial junk to their readers where in many instances it appears to be advertising driven. If you want a good list of well priced wines that are of the highest quality, do yourself a favor and send MartyL or Charles Smith a PM and ask them. I assure you their lists will be 100 times better then the garbage that the WS prints.
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Macrosan - The fact is you are a middle aged businesman from the U.K. so I do not see what is ad hominem about that? It's the truth. Where is the attack there? But if you are wondering what the point of that is, it's to say, as opposed to someone who is a discerning diner. When I patronize a restaurant I prefer that they think of me as someone who understands food, rather then Steve the upper middle class guy from the UES of Manhattan throwing money around. Or the businessman on a trip who has to eat somewhere. I end up eating better. You keep making this an issue of elitism but it is really an issue of expertise and knowledge. To insist that people with more expertise then you and with more knowledge then you have are "elite" is the bane of both the world of chat rooms and in general has done more to debase the quality of food then anything else. That argument is the personification of dumbing down restaurant dining. Everybody wants to eat well. But that means something different to people of different knowledge and expertise. Whether you believe there are people out there with more expertise then you have, and whether you think I am one of them, is totally up to you. But if you were a clever fellow, you would realize you would eat better if you took my advice, or the advice that some of the others gave which is exactly the same as mine. But it appears you would rather be right then well fed. Well go ahead and be my guest because it is no skin off of my back. And those people who can benefit from my recommendations will. As for what I have claimed, I will repeat it for the umpteenth time; I have found that I eat better when I let the chef choose my meal Otherwise please stop misquoting me on what I said. I haven't said you can't eat well off the menu and I haven't said that Blue Hill is mediocre when you order your own meal there. All I have said is that if you let them choose it's usually better then if you choose yourself. How much better is on a case by case basis. Now as to your argument in general, it's bullshit on it's face. How can you reach the conclusions you have reached without getting chef's menus when you go out? Let's break it down. You don't order chef's menus, do not believe there is a difference yet you say; Well how did you reach that conclusion if you don't practice the art of chef's menu dining?
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The clutter comes from threee things. Too many course, too many flavors on a single plate during some courses, and the disparity in quality between courses. That's why my recommendation is to reduce the size of the meal and focus on the best courses. But I don't think it matters how many people are at the table.
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Yeah if I had to do it again, I would try and cut some type of deal with them and BYO the chardonnay and red wine. But their white wines like trebbiano and sake etc. were fine accompaniments to the food. But considering how exquisite my beef course was, the Zenato was a step down in quality. That dish needed a dal Forno or something of that magnitude.
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Your love affair with Chinese cuisine:
Steve Plotnicki replied to a topic in eGullet Q&A with Ed Schoenfeld
Ed - I have to say that your answers are riveting. Not only are they informative, missing pieces about the NYC restaurant scene over the last 30 years are buried within. Maybe Suvir will be inspired to convince you to organize a Chinese banquet for the eGullet crew at Ping's one day. Which you will attend of course.