Steve Plotnicki

Ruby-Look, as I have said on this board and many other boards in the past, and I have heard many a moderator say the same thing, if you have nothing to add to a thread, move on. Point number 2. LML is a bright guy. He knows very well the discussion wasn't about the words that describe the three cuisines, but about the actual differences in the cuisines. To shift the pea the way he did isn't intended to make the discussion digress down another path, it is intended to make the discussion fall off a cliff. As for the human misery and horror in the world, I'm sorry to tell you that I didn't find the humor in question sufficient to make me forget about it.

Ruby-Gee I don't think I asked anyone to censor this thread. But please respect my decision not to participate in a thread (retroactively if need be) where people are in my opinion acting in a way that diminishes the level of discourse on the board. I'm sorry if you don't like this answer but, my ability to be critical of whomever, in the manner I choose to voice that criticism, should be afforded the same free speech protection you are seeking for the people who might be being disruptive. Would you feel differently about it if you knew there were people who were interested in joining in the discussion who were put off by the responses? Not that I'm saying that it absolutely applies in this instance, but it easily could apply if this strain of the conversation got out of hand.

Gee, one would think that people would be polite enough to not get involved in a thread if they don't have anything to contribute to it. But to jump in in a way that ends up discouraging the conversation prior to the debate being joined isn't fair to those who want to participate in earnest. Some of the best points made on this board come through long and detailed discussion. Quite often the point isn't made until well into the thread but you have both done your best to make sure that isn't going to happen. I guess the British have more than just bad food, it runs to bad manners too with certain people. I am going to delete this thread and start over. Please do not join in unless you want to dicusss the topic, not your egos. Wilfrid-If you can just paste your replies in I will try and put together a response to your questions of yesterday.

Wilfrid-Well I didn't say it was going to be easy. In fact, in some ways it's harder to pick apart Modern British from French than American from French. Obviously when we are discussing dishes that are derivitive of traditional British cuisine it's easy. But something I've noticed about MB cuisine is that it incorporates Mittleeuropa cooking styles and technique to a greater extent than French cuisine does. But don't ask me for any examples as I can't think of any offhand. Macrosan-You are too aged to be acting is this disruptive a manner. I will have to straighten you out at dinner next week. But just for the record, nobody asked anyone to create a hierarchy as to the three cuisines in question. Just to point out what makes them different from each other. But as to that issue, I am almost finished reading Paul Richardson's book, "Cornucopia, A gastronomic tour of Britain" and I will post a review of it. Wait until I start that thread. Then there will be ample space to pillage the cuisine of your homeland. In the meanwhile, hold onto your bangers.

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Wilfrid-Fire and Ice was the name of the Tuna Tartar dish Rodriguez used to serve at Patria. Are you sure Norman's was named that? What year Insignia did you drink? I personally like the '94 the best out of the big trio of '94, '95 and '97.

Jaybee-Back in the days when the last generation of 3 star chefs meant something, guys like Verge, Blanc, etc. the Nice-Paris Autoroute trip was by far the best I took. Actually my trip started in Positano and worked our way up via Florence. But I think when you get down to it, it was the Cote D'Azur part of the trip that was the part that was mindboggling. Back in the 80's, just in that 25 mile region alone you could eat at Verge, Outhier. Rostaing and Maximin plus all the local places like Bacon, Tetou, La Cololmbe D'Or, etc. You had good beaches, good markets, nice drives to take, good shopping and good museums. And fantastic people watching too. The singular best vacation experience around in my book.

Robert-Your description of what was in the Cocida has left me hungry. But I also know that any of the boiled meat dishes, regardless of country of origin can be bland. It's the same problem here when you go to one of the noodle houses in Chinatown like New York Noodle Town or my favorite, Win Hop. On some days the chicken broth is bland, and on some days it smokes. It's like my father the butcher used to say when we would complain that meat he brought home wasn't up to par, "you can't creep into the meat." But your description still had my mouth watering, and knowing the feeling of needing a nap after a big lunch like that. As for your comparison of Barcelona to Madrid/Rome to Milan, I can understand that completely. You can never get a true comparison because Barcelona is a port town and has a funky aspect to it which in some ways makes it a lot like Naples and Marseille. But it's artsy where Madrid is regal. And that Barcelona lacks a great art museum probably has to do more with there not being real wealth there. I don't mean there aren't any rich people. I mean institutional wealth, like a monarchy or a religion has. Is there a great art museum in Milan? I don't think so. And that's because there isn't real institutional wealth. Just private businessmen.

Beachfan-It's on a case by case basis. For example, if I go to a place and find it ordinary, but others are raving about it, I will give the favorable opinion the benefit of the doubt and try it again. What I'm really after is the reason why the opinions are so disparate? It can be anything from an off night, to different types of palates, to people who just don't know. I would say that the last of the three reasons probably occurs 50% of the time. Sometimes I have just ordered poorly and need to get with the program. But sometimes a place is so bad that I just won't have it. As for Valentino and Patina, I haven't been to either in years but, neither of those places were either fantastic or offensive. With Valentino, if your palate likes a pretty plain rack of lamb cooked in the Italian style, it's fine. But I would probably find that boring, unless the quality of the lamb was superior. As for Patina, it's not interesting enough for what it purports to be.

For a number of years I have been taking my kids down to South Florida for spring break. During that time, we ate at every possible place imagineable. And every year the first thing I would do is to check for openings of new, serious restaurants which we would try. There would always be at least one or two. And more often than not, one was always being heralded as now being the best in South Florida. But despite the non-stop barrage of competition, one place always stayed at the top of the pile fending off the competition. That was Norman's in Coral Gables. And over the years I had some wonderful meals there. Norman's cuisine which is a hybrid of French, Floridian and Caribbean influences. His menu is both well thought out, and substantial enough in scope so you can actually structure a proper tasting menu. That is a rarity for the casual South Florida dining scene. And not only was his the menu always deep in food choices, the wine list was superb too. Stocked with choices from every country and every region, and in all price ranges too. Everything from a $40 bottle of Gruner Veltliner to a $550 bottle of Coche-Dury Corton Charlemagne. But even though I always enjoyed eating there, if I didn't say that I thought that Norman's had seemed to have slipped a bit over the last few years I would be lying. Maybe it was that the spark went out of the food. Or maybe the flavor profile was getting a bit redundent. In fact in my opinion, redundency was a problem that many of the South Florida restaurants seemed to have come upon. Or maybe we just hit it on bad days. But the truth is I'm used to having the best place in town turn for the worse, even if slightly so. And at my last two meals there Norman's seemed to be between 85 and 90 percent of intensity. Whatever it was, this year in planning our trip, I had thought of skipping it. We were only going for 3 days and if I could find something more interesting, maybe we'd try it instead and I would take this year off. But the problem came when trying to think of an appropriate replacement. The only other place in town we hadn't been to was Azul, and we were booked there on Monday night. So I booked a table for dinner last Tuesday, and crossed my fingers that Mr. Van Aiken had figured out a way to revitalize his restaurant It usually only takes me a few seconds to tell. Once they give me the menu, it either has interesting dishes or not. Especially the appetizers which have far more possibilities for interesting combinations than the entrees. Here they were just popping off the page, many of them brand new combinations I had never seen there before. But a few of the old standards were there too. Like Norman's Caribbean French Toast with Foie Gras. I started with the Trio of Tuna Sandwiches. It was six triangular slices of tuna loin that were seared to about 1/8 from the edge. They were made into three little sandwiches, each with a different filling. There was braised and shredded oxtail, finely chopped shitake mushrooms and a filling of crab salad. My wife had the Blue Crab Crabcakes with a Cilantro, Onion and Jalapeno in a Mojo Verde. Both appetizers delicious. We drank a 1998 Coche-Dury Meursault Perrieres, abiding by my rule that whenever a Coche Perrieres is on a wine list you have to buy it. The Coche was its usual intense Perrieres self, maybe a little less intense than the '97 bottling. For my main dish I had a good sized chunk of Chilean Sea Bass that was marinated, seared and then finished off by being roasted, served atop a Boniato (white sweet potato) and Conch Hash that was shaped into a small cake. Then three small egg shaped mounds of a dry Romesco Salsa surrounded the fish and hash which were sitting in a Mojo Sabayon. The sea bass which was lightly flavored with cumin played off the subtle sweetness of the hash. And the texture of the fish, firm yet flaky made a great contrast to the starch of the boniato but everyonce in a while a nice chewy strip of the conch would emerge to give it all some counterpoint. While I was yumming away, I gave my wife a taste and told her it reminded me of a Floridian version of the way people serve cod and mashed. She had the Mignonettes of Tuna and Beef. Two small filets, the tuna with a sauce Aigrelette and the beef with a Bernaise were surrounded by a sauce Bordelaise that ringed the plate. And betwen the mignons was a gratin of Potato and thinly sliced tomato which was crusted by manchego cheese. Both dishes were superb and plates were absolutely cleaned. And if I had any complaint, it was that my Banana Mousse and Milk Chocolate Timbale was too heavily weighed in favor of the chocolate. The reinvigorated Norman's left us both quite happy. My long history of fine dining is that the direction that places usually go in is down. It could be anything from the chef getting some national fame to his getting tired of mixing the mojo. Well at least here is an example of where a chef intervened and stopped it from happening. And in the process of reiventing itself, managed to alter the style of the place while staying true to the principals it was based on. Just my kind of place.

Tommy-It's the results that count. If we leftover food because it was overcooked it would be an issue. But we ate through it like we were on our way to visit a country that is having a famine. So it wasn't much of an issue.

Beachfan-One of the best meals in NYC. Weekends are okay if you go before 9:00am. After that you will have about a 15 minute wait until about 10:00am when the wait will become an entire turn of the restaurant which is about 45 minutes. As reported earlier, the Lox, Eggs and Onions are the house specialty. It's the way they pre-saute the eggs that does it. But the smoked fish sandwiches and platters and about as good as it gets. In fact, not much bad there. I personally prefer to eat there rather than take out. When I take out, I go to Murray's.

Jaybee-I was going to but my wife just crashed from her day and we never made it. Pitter-I've gotten it rare on occassion. It depends if your waiter is on the ball about it. But I have the same problem at The Palm trying to get it as rare as I would like. Sometimes I think that restaurants spend so much time having steaks sent back for more time under the fire that they intentionally cook it past rare. Nina-Now where do you want me to start? There are so many things that I feel like I'm trying to break into a circle.

Tom-Having eaten the lamb shank when it first appeared on the menu at Allison on Dominick, and then following you to Cascabel to eat more of them, I'm wondering how many lamb shanks have you served in your day? If you haven't kept count, well just tell us how many you sell a day and we'll do the math. But all kidding aside, there aren't many chefs I can think of who are single handedly responsible for the success of a cut of meat the way you are with lamb shank. Before it appeared at Allison, I had never seen it served anywhere. Going from nowhere to making it a staple of the New York restaurant scene is a pretty big accomplishment.

Answers to all questions. Steve Shaw Nina Wugmeister Peter Cuce Alan Rudnick Lana of Moldavia Me Overcooking seems to be de riguer there. It's the type of place where if you want your steak blue, you better tell the waiter that you are going to send it back if it comes any other way. The most overcooked thing was the prime rib. I had toyed with the idea of sending it back but the waiter said that was the rarest he had. Wilfrid if you are interested in attending a beefsteak, Beacon on W56th Street is having one on May 21. I went last year and it was lots of fun. But this year I will be in France. Fat Guy you make a good point about Porterhouse being sliced. And in instances when it has come intact, we had to slice it up ourself. Nina Wug-Yes you all had the same "wrong" view. As for libations, I drank soda. They do not allow BYO and I wasn't in the mood for having wine with lunch. I think that the butter sauce on the steak, and the onions on the chop steak makes Luger's a better beer place anyway.

Bux-Actually wineries in Bordeaux are set up to cater to tourists like Napa. But wineries in the Rhone, Burgundy, Alsace, the Loire and the Languedoc are set up for what they would call "amateurs des vin." Of the wineries I visited last month, I either faxed them ahead of time or called a few days ahead for an appointment. In every instance the person on the phone wanted to know if I was a proffesional or a "particuliere," if I understood the word correctly. Maybe someone with good knowledge of French wine lingo will correct my spelling. But I assume it means, "special customer," one who tastes before they purchase. But not only are their special bottlings to ferret out of winemakers, but the pricing is usually great. For instance, we ferreted out of one of those producers I mentioned a case of specially engraved magnums for 31 euros a mag. Where the wine costs $22-24 a 750 in the states. Another good thing about spending a day or two tasting in a region, is that when you get to an important restaurant, you have an easy way to strike up a conversation with the sommelier, and sometimes the chef. It is amazing how different some places treat you as soon as it becomes obvious to them that you know your way around a wine list.

Ellen-You obviously haven't been wine tasting in France with me :). I assure you I get poured no dreck at all. Not only that, my unique schmoozing abilities (in French that's called "le schmuz") usually get the winemakers to sell me hard to get, unusual bottlings that they are holding back for the second coming of the messiah (their religion not mine, we're still waiting :D .) But on the trip I took to the Rhone last month, we visited Domaine Cayron, Domaine Soumade Andre Romero, Domaine Aphillanthes, Beaucastel, Pegau, Clos Mont Olivet and Pierre Usseglio and I assure you not only did they pour us their best juice (and we were between 3-6 people,) except for Beaucastel which doesn't sell wine to visitors but where they spent 90 minutes with us tasting through the component parts of the 2001 vintage as well as finished bottlings of recent vintages including the Hommage Jacque Perrin which sells for $250 a bottle, they all sold us their top wines in magnums. And some of them don't even make magnums but took special orders from us for wines still in barrel. So next time you and that Fat Guy are going to the Rhone, let me know and I will hook you up. Bux-Shoulder season travel depends on where you are going. It can be better than high season, or it can be a deprssing experience. I remember one year my wife and I planned a trip to France in September that included two weekend nights in Normandy. One in Honfleur and one one in Deauville and they were ghost towns. And this was like the second weekend in September. When they say the season ends September 1, they really mean it. As for Bras being in full swing, it's going to be a function of how full his restaurant gets this time of year. If people are clammoring to eat there, it will be in gear. But if the dining room is only half full, they could be holding back. At Regis Macon, his big thing is mushrooms. That makes it sound like the optimum time to visit is fall. But I'm hoping that both places are in top form for yoir sake.

You see how I feel about green vegetables? Maybe it's just because I had string beans served to me last night at a local Italian in the Bronx.

Six dedicated members of the eGullet community, well maybe just people who are often hungry, found their way to Peter Luger's last Friday for a much awaited lunch. And what with the board being down last week, and it being a little more difficult to communicate than it normally would have been, you have to give the six attendees credit for not letting a little thing like the Internet get in their way of a meal. Actually, two people who originally said they were coming didn't show. Probably because they didn't realize that, there ain't no mountain high enough to keep us away from food. We sat in the room to the right of cashier and hostesses, at a large round table right near the window. An optimal table for a lunchtime visit to Luger's since it has the best light in the room. The Luger's lunchtime menu is pretty much the same as the dinner menu, save for the addition of a few items. We ordered the following, Tomatoes and Tomatoes and Onions Steak for three Prime Rib for two Three Chopsteaks Creamed Spinach Bacon (Four large thick rashers) The steak for three was actually two Porterhouse. Something that Luger's often does when the larger steaks for three are unavailable. If we had ordered steak for four, we could have gotten the same size portion, maybe steaks a hair larger. And the Prime Rib and Chopsteaks came with side dishes. Sauteed onions, mashed potatoes, string beans and french fries. But per person we each had a half a steak, half a chop steak and a third of a prime rib. In otherwords, six people ate for eight (burp.) Now despite the food being overcooked across the board (meat that is,) it was all astoundingly moist and delicious. We scoffed it all down (were there a few string beans left at the end?) in typical Luger's fashion which is, continue to take small portions of what is remaining on the table well after the limit you have set has come and gone. Do people eat more steak when it is small slices rather than a big hunk of meat? I wonder if the Luger's style of slicing the steak into small pieces is intended to achieve that result. Or is it the fact that when it is sliced, more of the steak is exposed to the sauce and more of the meat is moistened that way? Whatever, they have come up with the carnivorous version of potato chips. And I have to give the chop steak special mention. It is the piece de resisitance of Blue Plate Specials the nation over. Tasting of the same aging process as the steak, but accompanied by sauteed onions and mashed potatoes that are worthy of having been served in the Fifties. And topping the delicious food off is a German steakhouse environment that is a great backdrop for rolling up your sleeves and digging into the food, as well as rolling them up for some boisterous conversation. And we were so consumed in our discussions about the politics of food, as well as discussing the the politics of politics (I straightened all those right-wingers out,) that when we finally looked up we had eaten almost everything in sight. We topped it all off with a few Hot Fudge Sundays (vanilla) that were split amongst the table. A good way of reconciling after people voiced such disparate opinions about food and life. But regardless of what side of the poltical spectrum(s) you were on, I think to a person everyone would agree that a great meal, and a great time was had by all. In fact, I can hardly think of a better lunch revolving around meat in this town. I can't wait to do it again.

Bux-Have a good trip. I'm waiting to hear your report on Bras as I have reservations for mid-May. Since you are going to be in the heart of Cote Rotie/Hermitage country, any plans to do some wine tasting?

"Club Gascon and Daniel Boulud's three restaurants could be cited to explain the need for French chefs to go abroad to find willing diners, or they could be cited to show how French chefs have both the backbone and adaptability to please foreign audiences." Well now we're getting somewhere. The difference between how they are cited has to do with whether the person citing them thinks they did a good job of integrating foreign influences into the cuisine or not. Now in this example, Peter thinks Pacaud didn't integrate it well. What's wrong with that? And when I ask that, to me, whether you agree with him isn't relevent to Gopnik's use of the quote. And I must remind you, we are having this dialogue not because yuou disagreed. But because Gopnik relied on the quots. you asked why Gopnik relied on the quote a number of different times. Hoffman is a successful chef. And while you might disagree with that, being obejective that is a proper characterization of him. I mean the guy has run a successful restuarnt that has pretty good critical acclaim for what, 15 years? So what you have here, is a successful chef who feels a certain way about it. What's wrong with that?

Cabrales-I wonder when old Meg and Liv chowed down on a good old Game Pie? Okay quick quiz. Name some high end restaurants that serve pie for dessert? I've been trying to think of some but all I come up with are places like the Oyster Bar at Grabd Central. Anything else?

"Why is it that Daniel Boulud has three restaurants and the best two aren't Daniel?" Shaw-That's an easy one. The style of food they serve at Daniel isn't conducive to feeding 300 people a night. On some nights it works great. On others not as well. I'm not sure why that is. But the scope of what they are trying to accomplish at Cafe Boulud and DB is less of a burden for a kitchen, and they also feed less people each day.

Ruby and LML-I plain disagree. According to Suvir, a discussion about how the sophistication of cooking techniques vary from culture to culture should not be had because it neccesarily describes certain cultures as inferior. And if Suvir wants to feel that way about it he is entitled to do so. But it is plain rude for him to come onto this thread and lecture me and anyone else who is participating as if we are doing something wrong. There are people who happen to believe that some cultures have evolved to a greater extent than other cultures when speaking of specific ways that development has been applied. Haute cuisine vs peasant cuisine is but one example. And if Suvir wants to make a poltical statement in that regard, let him go find a political board to do so. Or let him raise the issue in the context of the topic we are discussing. But this conversation was about the superiority of certain cuisines, and I intend to have it whether he likes it or not. And if it didn't happen to be the topic of countless books and endless discussion everywhere from universitys to this board, I might look at it differently. But it is the topic of endless conversation and endless speculation. And to act like it isn't and that he doesn't know it is a lie. Bux-Now I understand. You just disagree with Hoffman about whether the curry was an appropriate use. The rest is just superfluous to the fact that you disagree with him. The rest of your response it is intended to undermine the weight of his opinion. You do that by saying he hadn't studied the use of curry in French cooking for the past 700 years or however long you said. That's where you lose me. Why isn't it enough to disagree with Hoffman based on the flavor of the dish? Why the need to go to the next step which is, Gopnik shouldn't have relied on him? I mean I know Peter for a long time and I have respect for his knowledge of French cuisine. I'm sure Gopnik is the same as me. And you haven't offered any evidence that the guy isn't knowledgable. Yet you draw the inference from his statament that he hadn't studied the use of curry in French cuisine. I mean I don't see how you got there, nor why you are trying so hard to(emphasis) get there.

John Whiting-Sorry I forgot my response to you. Your story about the Swiss train conducter assumes that the reason he has equality is because of moral reasons and isn't based in economics. Why isn't (and I'm just speculating,) his equality derived from Switzerland's economic superiority? Couldn't it be that it as a matter of a GNP that is abundant for the size of the populace, the wealth has been shared in a way to pay a train conducter a fare wage? And now society views him as earning a respectable wage, i.e. differently than he would be viewed in other societies where he is paid an inferior wage. This might be a cart and horse issue but, if we looked at history, I bet you we would find that conditions improve concomitantly with there being a surpluss in wealth.