Steve Plotnicki

Cabrales-Ghislaine Arabian's cooking was covered in my original post when I talked about dishes that are braised in beer. In fact, that is her whole schtick. Adam-When you don't have sushi that is loaded up with soy sauce and wasabi (two flavors that are deadly for wine,) wines with a floral chracteristic like Condrieu and Gewurztraminer actually go pretty well. The same is true for a certain style of Asian fusion cooking that relies on mild fruits to flavor the dishes. As for British/Irish mothers who were given stout to nurse with, I can't think of an example of society going more wrong than that. It's like the U.S. government stamping the seal of approval on an artificial product that has the sufficient nutritional value while causing cancer at the same time from the chemicals. Helloooo, it's a baby and we're talking about alcohol. Surely there were safer ways to get iron into a mothers system.

Yvonne-In 1977 a friend of mine and I spent 3 weeks in England. Two weeks in London at a B & B in Cartwright Gardens in Bloomsbury, sandwiched around a tour of Britain in a mini. Cambridge, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh (I have fond memories of Henderson's Salad Bar there,) Liverpool, Stratford, Bath. I was very much into food at the time, and was quite expert in ethnic cuisine. During the first week in London, we tried everything from Fish & Chips (greasy but it had its attraction) to Pub food, Chinese, Greek, Italian, Salt Beef, etc. Aside from the Chinese (and the place I ate in Canton is there to this day, and still is good in my book,) they to a style stunk both in terms of quality of ingredients and cooking ability compared to what I was used to in the States. Then when we arrived in Bath and foolishly thought we would be able to eat at A Hole in the Wall without a reservation, we ended up at a posh Indian in town and that was my first real experince with Indian food which was pretty much something we didn't have in the U.S. at the time. From that point on, we ate Indian at least one meal a day. And just to highlight how significant an impression the food had made on me, I had just come from 3 days in Italy and 4 days in France (this was my first trip to Europe) and where the quality of silly things like a crepe made by a sidewalk vendor was so so good that it made the food in Britain seem especially poor. And it pains me to say this but, when I was in Oxford three weeks ago, the taste of the food at Le Petite Blanc had the same bad taste that the food did on my trip in 1977. It was like they had transported me back in time. And it was even more disappointing because I had become used to the better quality that was now available throughout most of London. But all things have good parts to it and the music we saw on that trip was unsurpassed for its time. A highlight being The Stranglers, The Jam and Cherry Vanilla at The Roundhouse in Chalk Farm. A friend of ours from backhome was the guitarist in Cherry Vanilla's band and we hung backstage. The friend I was traveling with took photos and he recently told me that he has photos of Sting hanging around with us backstage before he was Sting. In the same two weeks we managed to see Derrick & The Dominoes at Hammersmith Odeon and The Eagles with a symphony orchestra at Wembley Pool, and I believe what was the original production of Jesus Christ Superstar. It made up for the food .

I have eaten quite a lot of pizzas in my day. Although it is a thing of the past due to the development of an intolerance to wheat gluten a dozen years ago. But at the time that happened, I was quite an accomplished eater of pizzas made in the Mediterranean style (which happens to be the original style since it seems to be a Neopolitan thing.) So when you say to me what goes best with pizza, it depends on whether we are talking about the flavors that you get in NYC at a John's type of place or what you get at Chez Black on the beach in Positano or La Pizza in Cannes. In NYC, beer is better. Don't ask me why because I never studied it closely. Maybe it is the type of acidity that American tomatoes have and maybe it is the types of toppings that are popular here like sausage etc. Maybe it is the crust/cheese/tomato ratio of an American pie. I'm not sure. But on the Mediterranean coast stretching from at least Marseille to Sicily, the predominant pizzas are Margharita (cheese, tomatoes and basil) or Napolitana (anchovies) which I always considered the "real" pizzas. And in my experience you drink rose with them, or an acidic white or light red wine. And although I have frequented those types of places a good 50 times in my life, and still do now ordering things like eggplant parmagian, I can't recall anyone ever ordering a beer except Northern Europeans. People from the States or from Southern European countries always seemed to order wine or Coca Cola or stuck with Badoit. But next time I'm there (which is next month) I will do a quick survey on the terrace of La Pizza. Thinking it through, a significant way Italian pies differ is they seem to have a higher proportion of olive oil drizzled on them than American pies. And they usually have a strong herbal component and sprinkled with things like Herbs de Provence or whatever the local equivelent might be. To me, oil + herbs = wine not beer.

Tony-We have our own brands of sweet wines that are kosher for passover. The two biggies being Maneschevitz and Mogen David. Wilfrid-I didn't see your response at first so I am editing this in. I do not know why you just simply say that I was right . What has come out of this discussion is a number of things. The most telling thing being Tony's post on General Board about British custom of considering beer as food. If that doesn't put the icing on the cake as to just how bad the food was and still often is, along with Tony's list of things that Ale tastes good with, and how awful those things are, you just can't be convinced. But I will simply rely on the evidence and let others decide. As for a plot or conspiracy, well I'm unclear as to why you say there wasn't a plot? "Enclosure" is a plot perpetrated on the masses by the landholders with the Government's approval. When they perpetrated their plot did they all sit in a big room and say "we are doing this to deprive the people of Britain of good food?" Of course not. But did they all realize what the effect on the masses would be? Of course they did. That's why they did it. They wanted to make more money from the land and they knew that with making things more efficient, quality would suffer. So indeed it was quite a large plot if you ask me. As for France and how their custom arose, let me just point to how they did not have an equivelent of enclosure. Furthermore, the French were encouraged to not only farm the land, but to develop and maintain the best parcels. Instead of forcing people into cities to work in factories with poor conditions, they developed an entire codification system for ever single piece of land in the country. But that in and of itself isn't sufficient evidence as to their intent. But what is sufficient is their making the information about the system not only available, but pretty much mandatory as something a French person needs to know. I don't know about you but if you ask me, that sounds like a pretty big plot by the French to maximize their agriculture in a way that is intended to benefit the populace. Do you think not? So can we now get past the argument of exactly just how good or bad British food is/was? The degree that it is/isn't isn't really relevent to my question. If it is indeed worse than France's, why is that? And that question is framed within the context of Steve Klc's comment that Mennel wrote that up until the 1700's the cuisines were pretty much the same as well as my point that it's better now. Why wasn't it better then? And I have heard all the answers about wars. But France and Italy suffered through wars too. So did the U.S. Britain has no exclusivity on war as a reason.

Tony-I'm not sneering at Scotch. All I have said is that it isn't a great contribution to food culture. Maybe it is to drinking and those two have some relation. But I don't consider the development of hard liquor as much of a contribution. Now what the hell is Palwins? Adam-You have raised an interesting point which is what effect does insularity have? When cultural traditions become pervasive to the point that they become stylized, does the demand put on artisans to deliver a final product that conforms to that style inherently force stagnation to the point becoming outdated? An example would be the stringent rules placed on establishments by Michelin and whether that has somehow contributed to what French chefs aspire to. Is that not somewhat similar to what the general thinking was in England at the time and did the encouragement to rely on known and internal custom hurt the development of what we would call British cuisine?

Steve-I didn't say that beer was food unfriendly, I said that apart from my list of types of food, I didn't know many French and Italian dishes that were beer friendly. And I agree with Stephen Beaumont who has pretty much said what I said which is that high acid foods need high acidity/low in residual sugar wines and that bitter beer offers the same qualities. Tony-That was a fantastic post but unfortuntely has brought up the following question. Beer as food? Why would anybody believe that? I'm sorry I keep coming back to that issue but it is the one that fascinates me. Here in the U.S., we grow up believing that everything we do is of our own choosing. Now while nobody believes the "everything" bit is literal, I think that in general if you asked most people they would agree with that. So I am fascinated to understand why anyone would believe the concept that beer is food? And then why nobody would figure it out that it isn't and instigate public opinion against it? I mean I understand how the public invests in cultural change that works against them. Like in the U.S., we were talked into abandoning a good rail system by the automobile companies and it was very much to our detriment. But that is a little more complex than food. Food seems easier to figure out (though I could be wrong about it.) But since you are our authority about British food and drinking custom, what answer might that be to that question?

The key to Gem Spa egg creams was the syrup. I think the name was "Red Heart" or something like that and it came from Hartford, Ct. Anyway, there are better egg creams at the newsstand/soda counter on Avenue A between 7th Street & St. Marks Place (I'm pretty sure they use that syrup,) two doors down from Leshko's. Still run by Ukrainians. I actually had one about a month ago after a big lunch at Katz's. It hit the spot. Get a large.

Steve - Italian white wines from the Friuli go best with tomato dishes. There is something about the acid in wines from that region that matches up well with tomatoes. If you want to have yourself a perfect match, go drink a Vintage Tunina from Jermann, or a Colio Pinot Bianco from Schiopetto with a seafood risotto and they will match up perfectly. Also as Bux said, Muscadet is the usual beverage with oysters. Go down to Chambers Street Wines and get yourself a Domaine Pepiere Muscadet and that will be a perfect match for oysters on the half shell. You see the thing about matching raw oysters with beverages is matching the acid in the wine with the brininess of the oysters. And the wine needs to be bone dry because if it has the slightest bit of residual sugar, or is overripe to any extent, the sugar will clash with the taste of the sea. That is why beer goes well. It is never sweet. As for crepes Florentine, well there are probably a whole host of dishes that wine doesn't go well with at all. How about asparagus? Beer is far better with boiled asparagus than wine is but not good either. As for rack of lamb and beer, sorry. Your basic $11 Domaine Remejeane Cote de Rhone, and a dozen other CdR I could buy for less than $15 are a much better combo, not to mention the dozen or so Gigondas and Rasteau I can get for around $20, or the number of great Chateauneufs I can buy for less than $30 (like Les Cailloux or Clos Mont Olivet.) They are way better than beer with a rack of lamb. Especially when you eat Alpilles lamb from Sisteron. And I'm not even going to mention Bandol and lamb. Steamed mussels are dependant on the type of seasoning, though most go well with beer. But Moules Provencal are better with a chilled rose (Tavel works well.) And mussels with a curry cream sauce (but not an emulsion) are great with Alsatian, Loire or German semi-sweet wines. In fact I think anything that has curry that is at all spicy goes perfectly with an Auslese.

LML-Gee we're getting desperate here. When we start getting down to things like Scotch being a contribution to the world's food supply we've hit the bottom. Can I claim Schnapps for the Jews?

Yvonne-It figures that the Brits would invent an "after dinner" drink. We couldn't expect them to have come up with something that tasted good with food could we? No incentive for a proper match

Robert-Nope. I know a Yiddishism when I hear one. The store that sold appetizers, i.e. things that were appetizing to eat, i.e., delicious, as well as things that created an appetite was called an "Appetizing" store. What else could you call it? It couldn't be any clearer to me.

LML-Claret? Since when did the British develop claret. Try these on The History of Bordeaux Or port? The History of Port But you are indeed right about Madeira History of Madeira But it appears not about Rum History of Rum And you're close about Gin History of Gin But not even close on tea History of Tea And continents and centuries away on Coffee History of Coffee Maybe you should have said Mead. But I checked that too and the origins were shared between Celts and Saxons. But I think you have helped me prove that the Brits were excellent at colonizing a place in order to bring back food and drink of value. I guess buying rum in the Caribbean laid the foundation for buying spam from the U.S.

Eisenberg Sandwich Shop on 5th between 22nd and 23rd still makes Cherry Lime Rickeys the old fashion way. What about that old luncheonette on the corner of Lex and, what is it, 84th Street?

Steve-Do you mean we need to find Yettie Weinberg who in 1898 was on her way to get some appetizers for dinner (lox and herring) when her neighbor Mrs. Goldstein, who was standing on the fire escape 3 stories up from the street looked down and saw Yettie and then yelled, "Yettie, vie geist der? And Yettie, who all of a sudden was at a loss to respond (and Yettie was otherwise not the type to ever be at a loss for words) thought about it for a second and yelled back, "Ich geist to the Appetizing Store." Do we really have to find the first version of that story or can we just reconcile ourselves to say that's how it must have happened? It makes sense to me. It was called the Appetizing store because the things they sold there were "appetizing" as in very appetizing.

I had had too many egg creams at Gem Spa to remember. And I ate many, many Matzoh Bries at B & H but not anywhere as many as the number of orders of the French Toast made from their one of a kind Challah with raisins. But other than going with somebody to get a challah about 3-4 years ago, I haven't eaten there in years. But they used to make some serious soups there, with potato and cabbage being my favorites.

Shaw-Well if you hadn't noticed, all of those Brasseries have raw bars outside the entrance so that would make it fall under the Alsatian theory. I mean they drink beer in Alsace, but not in Paris unless you are at a Brasserie or Alsatioan restaurant. What that leaves us with your spicy sausages which falls under the "too spicy for wine" theory. So aside from boiled foods, smoked foods, high in salt raw fish dishes or meat that is brined, spicy foods or foods where mustards play an important part, and I guess grilled foods (a beer at Peter Lugars might be better than wine,) give us a hard one.

LML-Those are all Upper Class drinks. The lower classes didn't drink claret nor port. None of those. Steve -I understood what you meant before you said the magic words "Mittel Europa." But why do you think it hasn't kept pace? Is post WWII communism the culprit? Did the creation of a classless society kill the goose? Obviously the people whom that cuisine appealed to were Mittel Europeans of a better class.

In the British food thread on the U.K. board, we ran across a tangential issue (gee what a surprise) which raised the subject of French and Italian dishes that go well with beer. Giving it some thought, the only ones I could think of were choucroute and Istrian pork and cabbage dishes, which are choucroutish in nature to begin with. Steve Shaw said he could name a bunch if I posted a new thread. So here it is. And aside from certain stews that come from Belgium which braise things in beer, I can't think of any other dishes outside of Alsace and Istria that are really beer friendly. Herring in oil with steamed potatoes? Charcuterie platter? Beef stew? It certainly isn't the drink of choice when eating a Steak Frittes with Bearnaise sauce or a Coq au Vin. Anybody?

Tony-I'm with you about German cuisine. It isn't very good, although if I had to say whose cuisine is more evolved, I would say Germany tops Britain. But neither cuisine is adequately evolved in my opinion. Lots of roast game and birds. Not much sophistication to the sauces which is where all the action is. But I have to say that even on the simple level of boiled meat, the Germans created a more sophisticated way of serving it than the Brits did through the various accompaniments. Is a British "Boiled Dinner" similar to an Irish one or the American version which is a "New England Boiled Dinner" that relies on brined meat (corned beef) to flavor the rest of the ingredients? A less sophisticated approach than to poach in beef stock, or even to create the equivelent of a beef broth with the fat skimmed off the top like a Pot au Feu.

Steve-Hmmm. I think that in instances when beer is paired with a modern day tasting menu it is because the spicing regimen of that cuisine doesn't doesn't have a tradition of being served with wine. Like we can pair grassy Sauvignon Blancs with Thai cuisine or semi-sweet wines with Indian, but because those cuisines are spicy they also pair well (better in many instances) with beer. But beer does not go well with any French food I can think of except Alsatian food and the Alsatians have at least a few toes in Germany, if not a whole foot. And is there an Italian dish that goes well with beer outside of the types of pork and sauerkraut dishes they serve in Istria? Tony-Are you not discussing the difference between alcohol dependancy and being drunk in public? Alcohol might be eating away at French livers, which might shorten their life expectancy. but I haven't seen many French people giving up their cookies outside of the local wine bar. In fact I've never ever seen that happen. But all you have to do is spend one night in Soho and you are bound to see person some keeled over Brit (including women) watering the daisys.

Steve- 270 pages. 188 pages of recipes and since each recipe is 2 pages, and with title pages that change the type of recipe from say appetizers to main courses, it appears to be about 90 recipe. There are 16 dessert recipes. The first dessert recipe is the "Chocolate Biscuit Coulant, Iced Doubdle Cream, Coffee and Milk Powder" which I believe is what we were discussing the other night. And I am glad to report that it is, sans farine blanch . Le biscuit compose par creme de riz et poudre d'almond. Formidable.

Steve-Your logic is off. The reason one drinks mature wine is to experince its complexities, something you can't do when drunk. So I doubt that is what you would do even if you had a cellar full of '45's and '47's. But I think you might be onto something else here from this point. Did the type of alcohol one could produce have any impact on the cuisine? In Northern European countries, a reason people drank hard liquor was to keep warm (even though it is a fallacy when looking at one's body heat, but it does give the feeling of warmth.) And does the fact that neither hard liquor nor beer are conducive to being paired with fine cuisine have any impact on food customs in Northern European countries?

Steve-That interpertation has to be right. It is rare for anyone to drink more than a 1/2 bottle of wine at a meal (which doesn't get you very drunk.) And in instances where I've seen greater consumption, like a bottle per person, it takes place over a long dinner like 5 hours and the wine gets consumed with an entire meal with multiple courses. Beer gets drunk all by itself. People are doing it to get pissed. I can't think of a single person who drinks wine to get drunk. The other thing that the statistics seem to show is that British beer consumption is similar to Germany. Is this something one can trace to Saxon dining traditions? Are those Germans the source of it all? Maybe when you cut through it, it really splits into Northern and Southern European dining traditions and ther British are just a variation of Northern.

Steve-Let's see. The price inside the front cover is $50 which is what I paid for it at Kitchen Arts & Letters. They had it in stock when I was there yesterday. Ici la Press owns the English translation rights but the copyright notice reads 2002 by Editions de Rouerge (France) So I guess my prior post about it being translated back into French was wrong. I was looking for a notice that said "reprinted" and there isn't any. But maybe the notices read this way because it hasn't been printed in France yet? I'm not sure. I haven't read every page of it but there is no immediate indication that this has been updated from a prior version. Unless, the Rouerge edition is an updated edition itself. And I can add that when I was in Paris two weeks ago, this book was not available at either Galigniani or the Virgin Megastore on the Champs-Elysee. As to the style of the book, each recipe seems to be an exhaustive description of how to prepare the dish. More exhaustive than what I am used to seeing. And the photography in the book is spectacular. Worth the price of admission because it does a good job of capturing the essence of each dish. And the photgrapher has angled each dish in order to create an appearance of depth and a sense of what the dish would look like laid out on a plate in front of you. One of the trickiest things about cookbook photgraphy in my opinion.

Tony-Sounds strange to me. In all of my life and travels, I don't think I've ever seen a drunk Frenchman or Italian for that matter. But I've seen lots of pissed Brits who have had more beers than seem humanly possible. Anyway, the point isn't how much they all drink, it was did the fact that British culture discouraged drinking at home have alot to do with how their food culture turned out?