Steve Plotnicki

Fat Guy-I'm not sure. 400-500 maybe? I'll have to check. I used to have more but I got rid of a bunch of them for various reasons. I think the way to sell the story to a magazine/paper is a story about the undiscovered south. How people are familiar with N.O. cuisine and Florida Stone Crabs etc, but there's a long tradition of regional cooking in Natchez etc. Throw in a Civil War battlefield or two and maybe a Plantation where Rhett Butler lived and you're in business. You just want to write off your trip you mamser.

Tony-That's a current list. The dinner I was talking about happened nearly a dozen years ago. But I used to like The Quality Chop House very much. Is it still good? And The Ivy and J. Sheekey are fine too. But their main appeal is people watching more than food don't you think? Alfred's, any good? And Gary Rhodes is truly a Modern British chef. I've never eaten in his restaurants but from watching him on TV I would venture a guess that he would be the one to create an updated version of those old British standards.

I can report that my Tuesday lunch at P.L. falls into the category of fantastic. And that is even with my cheesburger being overcooked. Just the taste of that aged beef in the burger is enough to quiet the Jonses I get for that flavor every now and then. I mean the steaks there are great. But what really makes them unique is the taste from the aging process. Having the same flavor in a burger for $5.99 is sort of a crime. But we had sliced tomatoes, cheeseburgers with fries and one slice of bacon which I thought was excellent. I'm sorry we didn't order more. Fat Guy, what is it? Did you grow up ultra-orthodox and don't know your bacon? Me I grew up kosher but when I was a kid, I was anemic and the Doctor told my mother to feed me BLT sandwiches for the iron. This stopped of course when I started going to Yeshiva. But I never lost my taste for that bacon. We ended the meal with a rather large Hot Fudge Sunday. I can easily say that lunch was perfect. And the room there is somewhat nicer with the light coming in the windows.

Fatus-I have that Jeannie Voltz book, or maybe I had it and got rid of it. I have to check. She did a good BBQ and Ribs book a number of years back. But if you ask me, the Florida section of the Gulf Coast Cooking book is the worst chapter. The action is in Alabama and Texas. Those are the "in-between" regions where nobody has really investigated the local style of preparing seafood. Mobile appears to have an oyster culture that rivals the one in New Orkeans. The Stearn's wrote about Wintzel's in Roadfood but they tend to pick middle of the road places. I bet there's some authentic places on that shoreline.

EMSNY-Shall we open a restaurant named "Misto"? It will have, Bollito, Arrosto and of course Frito Mistos. I actually always wanted to open a restaurant where all the food was served from carts. This could be it. Then there would be a cart that only had condiments. You know like 3 dozen condiments for the various foods. And the appetizers would be on their own cart, and then a salad cart, and then you would get to choose one of the three entree carts. Then a cheese cart, and then a dessert cart. High end filling dim sum! Gee it would be loads of fun. And loads of food too!

Yvonne-How did you know I like my knickers twisting? It is kind of you to acknowledge what we have known all along. But save it to say, it wouldn't have mattered if we were in England. Although obviously there would have been more choice, on review the choices wouldn't have been so appealing to you. I actually once in my lifetime, in response to a Chairman of a major U.K. recording company who was wining and dining me to try and make a deal for one of my acts, answered his question of what I would like for dinner by saying "Let's go to an English restaurant." And I must say, that he had a hard time finding one he thought would be any good. And we ended up in some place on the Fulham Road that was decent but mediocre at best. A hair (or hare) over pub food in my estimation. It was a shame because I would actually like to have a proper English meal that is actually good. Maybe one day. I will have to take a meal at St. John on my next visit.

My oh my. I had to attend the funeral of the father-inlaw of one of my wife's partners where we had to venture into that other state that resides next to New York. What's its name again? It starts with the same word. So I haven't been online since 9:00 this morning since the location of the church was nearly half way to the state after. But I can see we have been acting like a bunch of children who should be sent to bed without their pie. Save for Wilfrid who is trying to redeem himself from prior gaffs. I applaud you for trying to straddle the line where you have taken a noble position which is, French food is better but English food is good too. Unfortunately an impossiblility according to the laws of physics. Then we have Signore Tutti-Frutti, a refreshing breath of air to a thread gone as stale as the crust of a 10 minute old.... Well you know, just fill in the blank. And then my two favorites, the teeth and all the other food items with pastry wrappers. And I'm sorry I can't give proper credit to the authors as they are before the last 10 posts and just not showing up on my screen. So whomever you are, bravo. Easy one first. All those other types of food with wrappers made from flour are simply better expressions of wrappers than the doughie, laden with shortening and stirred with water cement like mass you get in a pie. Second, haven't you all seen Austin Powers? Now I think whomever made that point was being polite. Because they didn't tie the two together when it is so obvious that there must be some corrolation between dental hygiene and those pies. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that dough doesn't eat away at the enamel on your teeth! If I could only invent a non-corrosive version of that pie crust I could really get rich. Just think about what the outside of the box would say, "Non-teeth eroding Pies" And I save the best for last, Yvonne. Yes I too am a fan, but I wonder where her palate went wrong? So I am issuing her a challenge to a food duel. She can pick the English restaurant of her choosing, devise a menu there with a number of choices for each course and we will set out a weeks time where it will be "English Restaurant Week." And as many eGulleters as possible will try and eat there that week. Also, we will assemble a group of 8 people (including the two of us) where a group of experts who have been hand chosen by Yvonne and myself (three each) will have dinner there. We will post everyone's reaction on eGullet (anonymously if you choose.) We will then do the same excercise at a French restaurant that I will choose on a different week. What say you Yvonne, brave enough? Or are you afraid the results will push you into the drink? In fact that might not be so bad because those pies need more than a little moistening.

Gee, You go to sleep and a thread careens out of control. Fat Guy has this argument sized up pretty good. And what I find amazing is that the more data I put up, the stronger the arguments against it seems to get, the louder the chorus and the lower it stoops as to comparisons. I mean comparing Game Pie to Foie Gras. Are you mad? I keep trying to frame this question in terms of concrete statistics and/or offerings of cultural examples to show if English cuisine has had any lasting impact on the restauarant level. And in return I keep getting back that pies taste good. No change that, English pies taste good. And aside from the fact that the last bit is an overwhelming obstacle for the Brits to overcome (good tasting that is,) a single item of worthiness (which I have not accepted as such,) is hardly a cause for celebrating. Unless the Brits like celebrating when they score 4 runs in a test match. So right now, offered to counter my arguments are the following pieces evidence, 1. A number of people like game pies and think the British versions taste good. I point out for sake of fairness that the only people who have adopted that position are British plus Adam who lives in Scotland and grew up in Australia 2. I do not like game, and I do not eat pastry 3. Game pies are made and sold at pies shops and street markets in France 3. Two English restaurants are within walking distance of where Yvonne lives. I might add that neither one is relevent enough to be listed in the 2002 Zagat. 4. Taillevent occassionaly offers game pie 5. I am obsessed with creating heirarchys and there is no such thing because all food is a matter of taste. I always find this one the most amusing because it discredits my ability to rank them and by attacking me for wanting to rank them. What does one have to do with the other? They aren't ranked because I want them ranked. Thay are ranked because there are food products and preparations that people find superior to others. 6. There are English products at the supermarket in NYC and the frozen food section especially is loaded with them. That makes me laugh as it is the first time I ever heard anyone invoke frozen foods as evidence of anything other than the worst crap in the world. Have I missed anything? Once again, I keep trying to frame this in terms of concrete examples and I keep trying to stay away from arguments of relativity. But what I get back are desperate attempts to prove me wrong through what can only be described as anecdotal evidence. Look, if there is a chef who is famous for his Game Pies name him. Steak & Kidneys or Haggis too. Any of those dishes. Is there anyone who makes traditional English food that has an international reputation? That's what I've been trying to get at. Not do people eat steak & kidney pie out of the frozen food section. It's agreed that they do. But the question is, why has it been relegated to the frozen food section and why is there not a premier version out there. And if there is, tell us who makes it? Again, I think the issue here is a simple one. The types of dishes you are all describing are relatively simple to make. From Tony's explanation, and Gavin's recipe, it doesn't take much skill to make a game pie. You don't need to be a real chef to make one. As Gavin showed last night, anyone can do it. So to me, the reason that people don't eat traditional British food is that the level of technique practiced in preparing the cuisine is less interesting, or less evolved than what is used in other cuisines. And where once upon a time people wanted their filet encased in pastry, now they are much more interested in the quality of the meat, how it is cooked and how refined the sauce it sits on tastes. And as Steve Klc so astutely pointed out, the French have not had this problem because their home styled dishes have made their way into fancy restaurants all over the world. And as good as your game pies are, just based on the ingredients alone it doesn't hold a candle to a cassoulet in terms of complexity as to both texture or taste. I mean look at Tony's recipe. How much flavor can you get out of a sauce that is created in such a short time? And then look at what goes into making a cassoulet and how complex the sauce you end up with is. I mean this is why the score is 246-4. And in the category of gross generalizations, people go to restaurants and are willing to pay money to experience technique that is generally too hard to practice at home. And people who buy food for take-away do it because they generally don't want to bother cooking. And I submit that pies in general fall into the latter category. And I know it will make Tony happy to hear this but, that puts them lower on the food chain. Finally (and I do hope this is the end because I can't fathom what defense you can all put up at this point ,) I'm most disappointed that nobody picked up on my insertion of Mrs. Lovett's Pies into the discussion. Maybe you have all been coy and have pretended not to notice? But for those of you who didn't get the reference, she's the woman who owned the pie shop in the Sondheim musical Sweeny Todd where they find that business picks up after they start including human meat in the pies after Sweeney blows a fuse. Most people think the show is social commentary on old England but I always thought it was commentary on the food there. And he got it spot on if you ask me.

Ruby-Here is a link to Mario Batali's recipe for Zuppa di Pesce. Aside from the use of carrots in Cioppino, and jalapenos instead of red pepper flakes, as well as using different fish (but you can fix that,) I am trying to figure out how it is different from the Zuppa? Am I missing something? Zuppa di Pesce

Yvonne-I am sorry I didn't see your post before adding my last response. I certainly would have framed the response in a manner that would be sufficent to quiet the storm you are trying to stir. But your last post has thrown down the gauntlet and I have to get the big guns out. Do you think that criticizing the critic will make the food taste any better? I mean if I haven't impressed upon you by now that I have sufficient knowldge to formulate a valid opinion about this topic, then you should stop reading my posts altogether. Because while you might not agree with my taste, I think it is bogus of you to say I haven't the facility to tell the difference between what tastes good, and what tastes bad. I mean has a single person that isn't British jumped into the fray and preached the gospel the way you see it? But please, if you don't want to take my word for it don't. But it only took me 5 seconds to realize that there is an easy way to show the facts. And in this instance, the proof is very much in the pudding. So I picked up the 2002 Zagat Guide and counted the number of French restaurants they list which is, France - 246 including brasseries which they list seperately And then I went to count the English section and I found, England - 3 But even I thought that was a little light so I skimmed through the section and found they listed Fish and Chips seperately. So I have revised my numbers, England - 4 My Lord, England hasn't done that poorly since the last India-England test match! Now as much as you try and avoid having to deal with this dismal showing, no attacks on my logic, or on my grammer, or anything else you might want to try and highlight in order to divert attention away from the facts, just won't escape the fact that A pasty tastes poor and that is why the score is 246 to 4. Word.

Okay. While you have all been having fun pointing out just how far and wide one can go with a pie, I must remind everyone that this thread was about the proliferation (or lack of) British restaurants outside of the U.K. And in that context someone astutely pointed out (Tony?) that not only aren't there any British restaurants outside of the U.K., even in the U.K. they hardly exist anymore. So even though you are pointing to savory pies as a major accomplishment of British cuisine, it doesn't detract from the point that the Brits haven't instigated much good restaurant cooking. Pies, whether sweet or savory, fall under the category of home cooking, or things you buy in a shop that you would serve at home. And even the highest expression of piety, the Quiche Lorraine, is either a bakery item or something made at home. I'm trying to think if I have ever seen one offered in a restaurant in France that wasn't a tea salon, or an adjunct to a Patisserie that served lunch? And it's not that you might not find a version at Daniel, but it would most likely be a small portion to be given away as an Amuse Geule than, something one builds a meal around. So let's save a conversation about the relative merits of British comfort food, compared to the comfort food that other cuisines have produced, for a different thread. Let's keep this one true to the topic and ask if there really are any restaurants that fit the bill, or if there aren't, why that is the case?

AIK72-Tell us more about those two places, Hot and Hot Fish Club and The Highland Bar and Grill. What do they serve there?

Tony-You raise a good point which is, is there such a thing as a "good" pie, whether it be your game pie or even a chicken pot pie that I'm used to eating here. And I hate to say this to you, and lots of people might disagree with me, but I think the answer is no. Meat pies are a mistake of history. They are something that came about because people couldn't afford fresh food so they did with little bits of meat in a gravy and crust. And the reason it doesn't really survive to this day is because it doesn't really taste good. Even fancy meat in a pastry crust (like Beef Wellington) hasn't survived. Meat in pastry is an old fashioned concept that doesn't need to be practiced anymore. And to the extent that it hasn't remained popular, it can only be a function of not enough people finding it good enough to ask for in the first place. In fact, speaking of it this way, it is probably correct to say that we stopped cooking with large amounts of flour at some point. Whether it be used as a thickener, or as a pastry crust, the entire concept of flour thickening a dish or creating bulk through a crust is very much a thing of the past. And maybe that has a lot to do with British cuisine not being in fashion. Wilfrid-Maybe I haven't been paying attention but I can think of no pastry enclosed pates in the traiteurs I frequent in France. Terrines yes. Of all different ingredients. But pastry? I will look next time but I don't think so. But you have bolstered my point in that in France the pastry is usually gone, and in England its still there. But that makes for an interesting question that actually has to do with differences in cooking techniques relied on by the Brits and French. At some point, the French abandoned the use of flour to thicken and/or to bolster (encrusting would be bolstering) and the English continued to use flour. That the French rejected flour was the lynchpin in their lightening and modernizing their cuisine. How come the Brits didn't do similar, and make wonderful game terrines that were pastryless?

Bux-Brasseries are places that serve Alsatian food. Bistros serve food from other reaches of France. And while they both might share a few dishes like grilled meats or a stew of beef/ lamb, they are completely different experiences both as to dining and decor. Brasseries are usually large places with high ceilings and they are loud, Bistros small, intimate and quiet. And while brasseries are busy serving large platters of raw shellfish, steaming platters of choucroute and other non-cooking intensive items like frissee salad and steak tartar, bistro cuisine usually revolves around roasted foods and simple "plats" that have been simmering in large pots all day. In fact, if I recall my food history, the word bistrot came about because that type of restaurant was frequented by Russian soldiers who needed to eat in a hurry. And since the food was simmering on the stove already, or a leg of lamb was already roasted and only had to be sliced, the Russian soldiers could yell "bistrot, bistrot" (quickly, quickly) and have a fully cooked meal in front of them in a matter of minutes. Baruch-The thing about getting the perfect brasserie is that so much of a brasserie depends on the local social scene that you obviously can't replicate the style and rhythm of a Parisian brasserie in NYC. When you go into La Coupole, the look and feel of it is as important as the food. Maybe even more important. And no matter how hard Keith McNally tries, he can never replicate the exact look and feel. I mean the people here look like New Yorkers and the tourists have their NY face on! As for Gopnik, it is only dismantled mentally for those who insist that time stand still. To me, it doesn't matter who the owner is or who the servers are as long as the food is good and I have the appropriate brassserie experience. Which I find is hard to do at this point because they have dumbed down the food at the Flo Group.

Ruby-Pray tell. What is the difference between a Cioppino and a Zuppa di Pesce which is available at both Neopolitan and Sicilian restaurants in all five boroughs? They even serve it in New Jersey! Occassionaly, you see a Tuscan restaurant serve a Cacciucco, a spicyish fish stew from Livorno. Campagna used to serve it (they might still do) and Coco Pazzo too. But Cioppino is something I've only runup against in Ca.

Bux-I read your explanations to Fat Guys questions (which were basically the same as mine) and I'm still confused. The reason that Balthazar and Pastis are stage sets, is because La Coupole and Le Dome are like stage sets too. Have you been to either of those places lately? If they blindfolded you and put you in Le Dome and told you it was a brand new McNally brasserie, you wouldn't know the difference. I was at Le Coupole last year and it was the biggest secene one could ever imagine. Even a bigger scene, and more theatrical than either of McNally's restaurants. And when you say this "Indeed. Exact replicas, while of course real brasseries are originals." Original whats? Original spaces? McNally went to France and brought back all original brasserie fixtures so why aren't those two places "real" brasseries. They serve all the same foods save for the addition of a thing like a hamburger for American tastes. And to be honest about it, since virtually all brasseries have been consolidated under the Group Flo banner the food has gotten pretty crappy there. I wouldn't be surprised that in a side by side test, Balthazar's food isn't better. When they first opened Balthazar I was inclined not to like it. A copycat brasserie in NYC, bound to be a gimmick and in addition, those places usually serve decent food for a minute, become trendy and then the quality goes into the crapper. But none of that happened because the place went beyond being a copycat into actually being the real thing. And if you transported it to Paris it would be just as busy being frequented by a Parisian crowd as a hip NY crowd. Baruch-Gopnik's chapters on the Blazar (where I must have eaten a dozen times) and brasseries in general are about their being consolidated under one owner, Group Flo. And with all the changes he describes that they go through, nowhere do I recall him saying that Group Flo dismantles the decor of any of the places. It's just the food and the waitstaff they screw up. In fact they buy the places in order to get their hands on the original decor, and the original spaces because they believe (and rightly so) that people want to eat in a place that feels like "old" Paris. And the example Gopnik uses I believe, is that when Bucher (Flo) buys the Balzar, he can serve X meals a day to bus tours who will be more than happy to have the lunch on their tour served to them at an "authentic? breasserie. Quatorze although it looks and feels like a bistro, actually serves the food served in a brasserie. As for your comments about Balthazar/Pastis, I can understand that criticism if they tried to be something they aren't. But I think they actually have reached the point they were reaching for. But if you don't think an authentic brasserie can exists in NYC and can only be in Paris, then I can understand the criticism. Wilfrid-I have never found L'Acajou to be as good as its reputation. But I'm not surprised to hear they didn't let you in. I understand they have read your posts on this board.

Adam-Sorry for the "esca" pade but the dictionary doesn;'t list eschatological either.

Steve-A few corrections. The brasseries in France owned by Group Flo are not recreations. They are the actual bistros which have been purchased by Group Flo. Aside from some cleaning and minor renovations, Group Flo hasn't touched any of them and they remain in their original state. Of course the exception to this is a place like Brasserie Flo in Nice which they converted from Restaurant Maximin into a brasserie. But what Group Flo has done is to homoginize brasserie cooking and at each place they basically serve the same thing (this wasn't true for Bofinger the last time I looked or some reason. Maybe because it was a more expensive brasserie than the others.) But dishes like the Curried Lamb Stew they serve at La Coupole are prepared in a common kitchen, trucked to La Coupole and finished there. But I think the main reason we don't have bistros that compete with the ones in Paris is that at the heart of bistro cuisine are ingredients that taste "French." It's the same reason that Bistecca Fiorentina tastes better in Tuscany. A Fiorentina really means Chianina beef which has a certain flavor. And if it isn't Chianina it is some other type of Tuscan beef that also taste indiginous. The French propensity for gourmet quality ingredients that express their terroir has a much bigger impact on flavor than people realize.

Adam-You chicken you. Since it won't be posted now, I feel compelled to give the answer here, in this thread. You said, "Do you know, having done a lot of reading on the subject of food in the 19th C. one of the things that stands out is that the big names in British cooking at the time (lets call it Victorian) were female, while the French big names were male. Do you have any theories about that Plotnicki?" And in reply I have to say that's an easy one. The reason is all the men were out hunting the game for those delicious pies! Thanks for the soft pitch down the middle of the plate that was headed directly at the fat part of the bat (all wonderful American baseball imagery.) And rest assured, that even though you tried to avoid being implicated in the answer, it is clear for all to see that your question was merely a "setup" for England getting kicked with the pointy end of the boot. And proper blame will be placed at your doorstep. Gavin-Prior to deciding which approach, it would be good if I understood what those big words you used mean. So I consulted my Oxford-American Dicationary (Heald Colleges Edition) and blimey me but they never heard of eschatorial either.

Adam-Too good a question to be wasted at the bottom of a thread. You should post it seperately as it would make for a good discussion.

Steve-Self aware and self concious are two different things. And so are self concious and pretentious. Maybe Bux was trying to say pretentious? I can't tell. But if your point about the nicotine stains is to say that he went too far, my response is that I don't pay attention to those types of details that closely. I mean once the place lived up to it's billing (an exact replication of a brasserie,) I didn't need to scour every inch of the place. And you know what, I never scoured every inch of La Coupole either. Jaybee-Here are a few more. All highly recommended by the Plotnickster A Souseyrac Chardenoux Chez Josephine (Chez Dumonet) La Chameleon Moulin a Vent (Chez Henri) Chez l'Ami Jean Cartet This is making me hungry

Adam-Alas, finally someone is on the right track. That's how I imagine all British cooks throughout the Victorian era acting. "What, take all that time to make it better? You must be joking." or "Did you say strain the soup? Doesn't it taste better with all those bits and bobs in it?" Or my favorite one, "If the French do it that way I'm going to do it this way." Now this is how culinary tradition is born . Simon-I have entitlement rights to say whack based on my being partially responsible for the popularization of the people who spoke that language in the first place. It's like George Martin's entitlement to still say the word "groovy." Tony-Well you have taken my ribbing about game pies a bit too seriously but as long as we are disecting food custom, Pate de Foie gras is a bastardized and poor man's version using foie gras scraps or a poor grade of foie gras. The real deal is made with entire lobes that are gently poached and then arranged into a terrine to shape it while it chills. Andouilette is sausage. And from a funky part of the animal I might add. No sausage making is a pretty sight. And Tete de Veau is just the meat off of the face of a calf that has been cooked with lots of parsley and spices, cut into cubes and formed into a rectangle for service with a sauce grebiche. But you have to give the French credit for being honest enough to call it what it really is. I mean they could have made up a name like "Top Cut" and you'd be eating calf face without knowing. But at least they are refined those French because if the Brits served a dish like that I am certain it wouldn't be anywhere as pretty. In fact, I can just here the waiter at The Dorchester Grill asking me, "Is that terrine Head On, or Head Off Sir?" As for your Game Pie recipe, it sounds just as I thought. Like Chicken Pot Pie but with game instead. Aside from the crust, which I am sure you guys make with white flour which gives it a "pasty" texture, what is the cooking fuel you use for the game stock? Just bits of game boiled in water? As for the taste of a game pie, I am sure it has its fans and if one is reared on those types of things, one has probably acquired a lifelong love of that type of homey and warming taste and texture. But in general, and I say this without any expertise or having done any real research, it seems to me that those types of savorys are pretty much a thing of the past. Sort of a poor man's meal in a single dish using bits of not the best quality meat in a stew setting which was made filling by the pastry. These days, when everyone has good access to fresh ingredients (there's a date to find Wilfrid,) there's not much of a need to eat that way. And whatever tradition remains is strictly cultural, like Jews continuing to eat deli, something they would never invent today if it hadn't already been invented. Gavin-You have brought up what I think is the real engine here because it isn't only British cuisine that isn't popular anymore, it is the cuisine from all the Northen European countries. Swedish, German, Polish, Russian, etc., those cuisines which were once somewhat popular on the global dining scene have all but faded away except for the occassional ethnic restaurant in places. But is it a Northen/Southern European thing? Is it a wine growing nation/beer consuming nation thing? Is it a Catholic/Protestant thing? I can tell you that among Jews, the split between Ashkenazy cuisine (Northern) and Sephardic cuisine (southern) is a gulf as wide as the entire European continent. And while I grew up in an Ashkenazy home, and would describe the cuisine as "delicious" providing it was prepared properly, an objective look makes me conclude that Sephardic cuisine is far more complex and interesting. So can you expound more on your theory?

Steve-I've gotten out of the domestic travel business so I haven't been on the road for a while. But a few years back I went out to Paso Robles for the Hospice de Rhone wine fair and can report that New York Texan knows his stuff about the region. I think a stop at The Hitching Post is in order. Santa Maria style BBQ is one of the stranger steak culture meals I've ever had. Just the way the places smell is unusual. Hitching Post house pinot is made for them by Hartley-Ostini. In fact, one of those two (Hartley or Ostini) own the Hitching Post or some variation on that theme. And if you are driving that way a place I never miss stopping at is La Superica in Santa Barbara, taco stand extraordinaire. I always wanted to explore the Gulf Coast between Georgia and Mexico. There is an entire oyster, crab and shrimp served with garlic and spicy schmutz culture down there that I want to get to know personally . Actually the cookbook "Gulf Coast Cuisine" does an excellent job of detailing the different cooking styles that you run into between Key West and the Mexican border, cuisines that are not well documented elsewhere. Might be worth a few days of your time if you're going that far south since there is very little that has been written about the food. There was that place that was famous for serving Cajun Bouillabaisse but I heard it burned down.

We made the Schneider recipe for dinner on Sunday night, using beef stock from Eli's as the poaching liquid. The dish was enjoyable, the meat extremely tender. But to be honest, I found the dish suffered from the same malady as most boiled beef dishes I've had in the past which is lack of intense flavor. In this instance, the condiments were crucial, especially the puckery cornichons. In fact my wife ate the leftovers tonight, and her response to my question about how was it was "plain." The Boeuf ala Ficelle I've had in Paris is the one served at D'Chez Eux. In fact, it is one of the recipes in Barbara Dannenberg's book about Parisian bistros. And I have to say, the version I ate there didn't have all that much more flavor than what we made on Sunday night. To me boiled meat is boiled meat and ultimately the action is in the broth. I would much prefer to eat a Pot au Feu than what I had on Sunday as the bouillion really gives the dish lots of flavor. And those condiments are a much better counterpoint to the broth produced by fatty shortribs that need hours of braising than what you get from a filet roast that has been poached for a short period of time. Though I am going to reread the Wechsberg and check out the variations of boiled beef. But I have to say, they always read better than they taste. Anyway I have never been but, isn't the famous Bollito Misto restaurant Fini in Modena? The same people who make the dried pasta. I was under the impression that they served it from a silver chariot like the Brits serve roast beef, along with something like 7-8 different condiments including the house mostarda.

Baruch-Hey what kind of a guy named Baruch eats lardons? You need to go to Lyon. The whole concept of bacon and vinegar in a salad has been perfected by the Lyonaisse in a way the Parisians will never be able to match. As for NYC bistros, an obvious one that is missing from the list is Quatorze. I've had a mixed relationship with that restaurant over the years but recent visits have been good. They also allow BYO which is always a help. Another obvious one is the D'Artagnan restaurant in the East 40's. For years, Park Bistro on Park Avenue South bet 28 & 29 street was by far the best bistro I knew of in NYC. The chef, Diot, could have been running a one star bistro in Paris. But he got fed up with the NYC lifestyle and moved out to La Jolla. I haven't been since he left. But over the years he cooked me some great meals. Bux-I'm confused. Balthazar and Pastis are too self conscious? They are exact replicas of French brasseries starting from the old tilted mirrors and ending with the food they serve which is exactly what a place in France would serve. Would they be self conscious if they were in France?