Craig Camp

Not a lecture just a daily observation of fact from someone who lives in Italy and has traveled and eaten there extensively for over 30 years. Your claim of wine prices increasing by 50% since the Euro was introduced is simply not true unless you isolate individual producers or wine lists. While there was an overall increase it is no where near 50%. Oh I probably forgot you are including the 20 to 30% increase in the strength of the Euro against the dollar - that would account for most of your huge increase. Hardly the fault of the producers or restaurants.

Charlie has a 'hot property' and you can always be sure to get many comments. You should know that the comments on this thread are more generally philosophical and certainly not meant as a critique of your post. We thank you for such a detailed post and for starting such a interesting thread.

I just don't agree that wines have increased in price here by 50%. If you insist on drinking outrageously overpriced wines like La Spinetta and Gaja then you are probably right - but then it is your own fault after all, not the Euro's. If you are obsessed with the Gambero Rosso top 16 and the top 10 wines of Parker and the Gambero Rosso then you are not only begging to get ripped off, but missing the experience of Italian cuisine. Just read Bills Klapp's review of Combal.0 and you will get clear picture of what is wrong with the Gambero Rosso and Michelin rating system. Combal.0 chooses wines based on what goes with their food - not based on the latest hot review and then get downgraded in the guides even though their food is clearly exceptional. I don't know where you are eating, but it must be based on the Michelin guide if you have had this experience. Italians cannot bear outrageous wine prices and do not frequent such places. Recently I enjoyed a 97 Chianti Classico Castello di Fonterutoli in Pisa at La Mescita for under Euro 50 not much more than the retail in the USA. Let the buyer beware.

Also agreed. However this account sounds more like an emotional response to the environment than the food itself. If you are uncomfortable in a certain type of environment it is hard to enjoy things. As far as the price goes: nothing could be simpler than anticipating your costs at Trotter's - 3 choices fixed pricing. The only variable was the wine which in this case they did not order.

I could not agree more Andy - except your mind and your palate have to be ready and open to finding those haunting flavors.

As nice as the food is at Tan Dinh -- the real reason to go there has always been the spectacular wine list. While every region is well represented their collection of Pomerol is unbelievable. Although it has been a few years since my last visit, I was always very pleased by the food and blown away by the wines we drank.

As a former Chicagoan I had had the pleasure to dine at Trotter's dozens of times over the years - including many times before it became the icon it has become. Never in all those times have I ever seen any hint of condescension to anyone from the staff. They are always consummate professionals. I am always amazed with the comment about not being full after eating at Trotter's. If you want to be stuffed there are plenty of other choices. Charlie wants people to experience the food - something hard to do if you are overstuffed. Every time I have eaten there I have had far more than my hunger satiated. I am reminded of a 'foodie' friend of mine who loved Trotter's. Anxious to find a reason to use his expense account to support his Trotter's habit he invited a client to dinner there. This client was a contractor who had never been to a fine dining restaurant in his life. His client hated the restaurant. The problem was not Trotter's, but my friend's error in fitting the restaurant to the person. There was nothing in his clients life to prepare him for such a dining experience. Your reference to Babbo (a restaurant that I have enjoyed in the past) is telling. The energetic whirl of people, noise and strongly flavored food is the opposite of a Trotter's experience. The environment of restaurants like Babbo is designed to give you the hard sell you before you even taste the food, while the environment of Trotter's is designed to focus all of your attention on the wine and food in front of you without distraction. Like grand old wine, restaurants like Trotter's are not to everyone's taste. Nuance, balance and elegance are often acquired tastes in a culinary world that pushes power and hype over substance and creativity.

I'm an inexperienced wine drinker, but I'm working on educating myself and my palate. Very basic question -- what is the difference between acid and tannin? Thanks Acid is the sharp citrus type bite you feel on the tongue. Tannin is the bitter, drying sensation that you get throughout the mouth when you taste strong, unsweetened tea. This is usually only a red wine issue.

Devote a lot of time to Milano and don't miss Bergamo and Brescia. True Lombard cooking is getting harder and harder to find as Lombardia is a true melting pot of Italians from throughout Italy. With a little work you can find the real stuff. Piemonte has nothing to fear from nebbiolo in Lombardia but here are some good producers from Valtellina: Nino Negri Mamete Prevostini Conti Sertoli Salis Good luck finding them in Toscana!

I take it you like Italy. Welcome both to Italy and the the eGullet Italian Forum. Just remember all the really good food is in Lombardia!

Andre - I think Prunotto is a nebbiolo house, both Antinori and the old owners. Stick with the wonderful nebbiolo wines they make. Chiarlo makes sound commercial wine, but nothing more. I too am a fan of Valpolicella, but find the flavor profiles quite different - especially these days when all the best Valpolicella wines seem to have a bit of ripasso. Give a few Barbera specialists a try. Also you will find much better deals from Asti than Alba.

Noyt getting the link here, Craig. It is working OK for me.

Tommy goes to Italy and now not only is he stylishly dressed but is...evocative. Is the world ready for an evocative Tommy? By the way, what that guy at Boccondivino was slicing off that leg was Prosciutto di Norcia - as you will see in the photo here and in the photo page link at the bottom of the Boccondivino page.

Raccolta: a weekly Italian wine harvested by Craig Camp 2001 Montaribaldi, Barbera d'Alba, Du Gir

The Wine Spectator has just announced it has upgraded its rating for the 2000 vintage in Piemonte to 100. That's right - 100 points of perfection. Is this an example of perfect weather conditions or perfect magazine marketing methods? Can Mother Nature really be perfect? Does not a 100 point vintage mean that any wine you buy should be exceptional?

Almost every serious winemaker I know has incorporated aspects of the biodynamic approach into their winemaking. They do this because they see a difference in the results. I agree that the complete teachings of Steiner are way out there and to me represent the worst kind of pseudo-science. However, this does not mean that individual aspects of this approach do not have merit. I agree with Mark and the proof is in the bottle. Yet we cannot ignore all the variables and say that the wines are better because they are biodynamic when the real reason is probably that winemakers that are willing to go through the extra work to practice biodynamic and/or organic agriculture are more dedicated than their neighbors and were to going to make better wines anyway. All of the producers that are using this method were making great wines before they changed.

I was not referring to an individual restaurant, but a common industry phenomenia. While I would agree that many large lists are a labor of love, like the Italian Village in Chicago or EP there are also many that are not. However as you note the experince at EP has changed much over the years. Now the prices do not reflect either a labor of love or an Italian concept of wine list pricing. Consider this and the dull food quality you have to really ask how they stay on this list?

Great insight - I absolutely agree with each and every point. The reason they construct such cellars is more commercial than artistic. If someone insists on drinking overrated and overpriced wines how can you resist selling them to them at a 300 or 400% mark-up. Few restaurants have the discipline and courage to offer a wine list as streamlined and focused as their menu.

I think from Joly's point of view the moon is just one aspect of the whole concept. That is just the defense he came up with for his website.

...from Randall

Oh? Is there any actual evidence that this is the case? I'm not asking this facetiously, I'm actually curious. Nicolas Joly thinks so...

There are dozens and dozens of producers quietly using biodyamic theories or parts there of - usually with little or no fanfare or mention in their promotional materials. However, few adhere to the mystical aspects of the practice, but many feel there is some logic - and perhaps scientific support - in many of the practices.

comments by Jancis Robinson from her Q and A

I agree, but they make their top 16 list based on total scores.

CraccoPeck - 85 pts. Don Carlos del Grand Hotel - 85 pts Joia - 84 pts. Amio e Nadia - 85 pts. ...but for better advice: here ...and here ...and here ...and more with the "search" tool