[HOW DETAILED SHOULD A RECIPE BE?]

Thanks, NLL: want to work with me on TDG piece?

Couldn't think of anything I'd like better! Lovely, lovely, Christmas present. I'll PM you later today.

[HOW DETAILED SHOULD A RECIPE BE?]

http://slate.msn.com/id/2075465/

"I know it is troublesome to write boring instructions about greasing pans or seasoning fish, but recipes are read very literally. Television isn't supposed to convey every last detail, and Lawson shines there. But recipes should be written for novices. Winkling and fizzling are not substitutes for a reminder to grease the pan." Sara Dickerman

This quote by Sara Dickerman is taken from the link above which disses Nigella Lawson's printed recipes. (Hope I'm not violating copyright rules on egullet!).)

So, I would like your input on the question of how detailed should a recipe be?

For instance, I would like to see the following included:

Information on whether the dish can be frozen successfully.

If not frozen, how long can it be kept and under what conditions.

Can it be prepared ahead of serving time and if so, how far ahead.

If special equipment (e.g. icecream maker) is needed, I'd like to see it shown very prominently at the beginning of the recipe.

I'd like something other then "golden brown" used to describe colour as this seems to have little real meaning.

Am I asking too much? What else should be included in a recipe that will make it more likely to succeed in the hands of an inexperienced cook?

Comments?

Thanks.

[Indian Pantry]

Thanks, that's quite a list!

Not sure on the deadline but certainly won't be able to make a trip to an Indian grocery store until at least the 27th.

[Indian Pantry]

Following on Suvir's request to Eddie regarding an essential Chinese Pantry, can we begin to pull together the essential ingredients for an Indian Pantry? A few brand names would be helpful, too.

Curry leaves and Chaat Masala are two things I can think of.

Thanks.

[Wok phobia]

Well my stir-fry tonight didn't turn out too bad but I should have read Ed's recipe a little more carefully as I left the beef cooking in the sauce a little too long and it sure did toughen it! Since I ate it as a steak the night before I knew it was tender beef so I'm sure that was the cause of the toughening. Of course, as Ed suggested, I skipped the marinade and I did not use more than a mere tablespoon of oil. I added the beef last just to warm it, really. But all in all, an improvement on previous stir fries. I still don't think I had the pan hot enough - practise, practise, practise. Stir-fries are still a great way to make use of leftover meats. There's only the two of us so we don't need much to make a meal. Thanks everyone.

[Wok phobia]

Of course it does have the problem, as Ed says, that it doesn't cool down quickly. So on the "low" flat-top, I keep a high-sided sauté pan, and transfer the cooked food into that.

Now why didn't I think of that? That's what I love about this board - the sharing of ideas. Also, thanks for the book recommendations as I had the same problem - rather bland food which I know it shouldn't be. I will look out for the books next time there's some spare cash or I win the lottery! Who knows, maybe Santa will bring me gift certificates to book stores.

Season's Greetings to all.

[Wok phobia]

The major difference between's Ed's post and almost every Chinese recipe I've seen for stir-fry, is that the recipes call for 3-4 tablespoons of oil, and Ed calls for 3 cups.

First, thanks to all for your input.

I too, did a double-take, on the amount of oil and rushed to my cookbook collection to see if I had mis-read any recipes. But no. All called for a minimal amount of oil and touted stir-frying as a healthy cooking process because of the small amount of oil used. But I trust Ed and will be more than willing to give his method a workout. But I have a question - naturally!

Often, I do a stir-fry to make use of leftovers. Right now I have some rib-eye steak cooked to blue-rare and was planning on using it in a quick stir-fry. How do you think this deep-frying method will work when the meat is already at least partially cooked? Thanks.

[English-style mustard]

I have a recipe that calls for "english style mustard".

My best guess (as an ex-pat Brit) is Coleman's mustard powder.

[Indian Cooking For Dummies]

Well I tried Suvir's recipe for Tandoori Cornish Game Hens again but decided instead to use skinless, boneless chicken breast and grill on kebabs as an appetizer. (Indoor cast iron grill). WOW! and that was my guest's response. The Dane also ate far too many for something that was supposed to be an appetizer.

Probably from the overconfidence of the utterly naive, I found this second attempt at the recipe to be a "walk in the park" First, of course, I already had all the ingredients at my finger tips and I quickly abandoned precise measurements believing that a scientific approach was simply out of keeping with the whole spirit of the process. Now that I had some familiarity with the both the process and the ingredients, I felt sure I couldn't muck it up too much. And I didn't. It was flavourful, moist and delicious.

What next, Suvir? Any suggestions for something that is not too, too spicy, not too, too vegetarian, and not too, too likely to send The Dane off on one of his "I hate Indian food" rants.

[A Tuscan Rhythm]

Day 1: Boiled white beans with sage, garlic and bay, drizzled with the oil. A couple of slices of the fesh bread on the side, lightly toasted, rubbed with garlic and also drizzled with the oil.

Day 2: The leftover beans, the cooking liquid, the vegetables, made in to a soup. Some of the soup pureed and stirred back in. A slice of toasted day old bread in the bottom of a heated bowl, ladle in the soup, drizzle generously with the oil.

Day 3: Ribollita. Half a dozen slices of two day old bread pressed into the leftover soup. Once these are soft, they are broken up with a spoon. The texture of baby food. More oil.

The flavors become more integrated each day. The oil livens the dish up each day. We enjoyed both delicious food as well as a feeling of connectedness with something familiar to us, yet distant. It was great eating and a great feeling.

I HATE beans - at least I think I do but this description of three meals makes me want to find out for sure. It just sounds so GOOOOD. Too many foods, too many recipes, too little time. Better stick to my experiments with Indian food for now but I'll come back to beans. I just know I will. Thank you for a delicious post.

[Wok phobia]

I'm watching this thread closely and hoping to learn. I, too, have a great fear of woks and further, with an electric range, they seem ill-fitted for the job they are supposed to do. I read recently and I wish I could remember where, that a large cast iron pan was more practical on an electric range and I did experiment. My resulting stir-fry was much better than any I had done before (mind you, I have never owned a wok!). I let the pan get very, very hot before I added any ingredients and I keep a flame tamer handy to slip under when things seem to be getting out of hand. However, it still takes a very long time for a cast iron pan to lose heat.

My bigger problem with stir fries is that they seem bland and have a sameness about them. Now, I also have to admit that I have a fear of chinese ingredients simply because they are so unfamiliar to me and even sound scary: blackbean sauce, oyster sauce, hoisin sauce.

Yet Chinese is one of my favourite cuisines ever since a friend introduced to me to a little-known restaurant in Toronto that was highly regarded by the Chinese community but little used by the general public. This was many, many years ago and I'm sorry but I can't remember the name. There was zero ambience - just long, bare wooden tables and benches. But the food - oh the food! I can't even remember what I ate only that I thought it was marvellous. Since then I've had a few meals in Chinese restaurants but only in one run by a friend have I found the food to be good. Still I persist in believing that one can make good Chinese food at home.

So I'll be watching and hoping as this thread develops.

[Thank you]

I also wanted to take this opportunity to announce the winners of the book. If you would like to PM me your address, I will send the book to you ASAP

WOW I am so thrilled! Thank you, Monica. And Thank You, Suvir for just being you.

[What keeps you away from it?]

Suvir, it took me over 2 hours to prepare your Tandoori

BettyK

It took me, too, at least that long but that was largely because I had no garam masala and had to make that first. Now, however, I have a stash of the garam masala and I am sure I could put together the marinade in a matter of minutes. Further, I also ground extra of the other spices because I knew I would soon repeat the recipe and they should not get too stale in a week. I think we newbies are handicapped because we simply don't have all the spices ready and one who cooks Indian frequently, probably does. The dish was so good and the learning experience so valuable that I now consider it "Continuing Ed." but in my own kitchen. I hope this sounds empathetic and is not in any way misconstrued as so many comments can be!

[Authentic vindaloo]

I love feedings groups of friends chapatis when I have small dinners for upto 10 people. Chapatis are a treat.

So how do you manage to serve them hot? Do you roll them out and stack them and then "fry" them a few at a time? Do they need to be covered by a damp cloth? In other words, can they be held, uncooked, for any period of time?

I was doing mine one at a time - rolling, "frying" and "puffing".

Thanks, Survir.

[Authentic vindaloo]

All the best with the chapatis. They are all about practice and patience and some attention in the begining. Once you get the flow, it will be second nature. Use more flour the first few times, as you get a knack for rolling them. Later on, use very little, for the lesser of flour you use, the less burnt flour you will have sticking to them.

Well here's my report on the Chapatis - I hope others who are interested in learning some Indian dishes find my reports of value - I don't want to bore anyone.

Having failed miserably to make a decent loaf of white bread in all my years, I approached Chapatis with an expectation that the first few attempts would be utter failures. Imagine my surprise (and forgive my wide-eyed wonder - I've never in my life made a flat bread) when these turned out to be not only edible but puffed and rather gorgeous looking!

I followed Suvir's advice and used 50% all-purpose and 50% whole-wheat since I don't yet have access to the Indian flour. I made just one slight change - I sifted together the flours and salt and tossed the bran that remained in the sieve - I expect that's a no-no from a health and fibre point-of-view.

I actually timed my kneading so that I did not think I had kneaded for 15 minutes when I'd really only done it for 5 or 10 - 15 minutes is an amazingly long time to knead dough. Only being able to knead with left hand (a gash on my right thumb aquired on the weekend!) was tiring but I relaxed into it and the 15 minutes went relatively quickly.

The dough rolled out superbly but it took many tries to get anything resembling a circle - my first few were definitely not very pretty! I used an ordinary ball-bearing rolling pin and a wooden board. I did not need to use a great amount of flour.

I heated a very heavy (anodized aluminum I think) pan on the stove to about medium high and watched as the dough turned opaque and then quickly turned each Chapati and cooked it very briefly on the other side.

I then picked up the dough, held it in some long tongs above a full heat electric burner. I was astounded to see it puff out like a balloon. Sorry to sound naive but I've never seen this before and I was duly thrilled.

I wish I had a digital camera to show the results and get a critique on this first attempt.

But, as always, I have questions:

Can they be prepared ahead so that they just need the brief time over the final high heat? If so, how would you store them?

If they can't be prepared this far ahead, can they be rolled out and stacked ready for the preliminary cooking? How far ahead of time could you do this?

I'm thinking how good they are hot and how one could cook enough for four people and still have them at their peak of perfection.

I urge anyone who doubts that they can make these, to give it a try - it really is not difficult.

Again, thanks for recipe and advice, Suvir.

[Authentic vindaloo]

Pork Vindaloo

This was given to me by a Parsi friend. This family has spent many years in Goa. It is a delicious version of the simple curry from Goa that has enough life in it to be eaten just by itself and still make quite an impact on any diner.

Well this recipe certainly made an impact on me! I am so much a DUMMY that I am completely unfamiliar with the names of Indian dishes. Who knew that Vindaloo would be so hot! OK, so I read "10 chilis" and what little of my brain still operates, flashed a warning sign. I chose to ignore it. I should have paid attention.

Even for one who thinks they like "hot and spicy" this was over the top.

This is not to criticize the recipe - far from it - but to show how much I still have to learn about Indian food!

Having made both Butter Chicken and Tandoori Cornish Game Hens, I found I had come a long way in terms of understanding how to toast spices and I thoroughly enjoyed the whole process of assembling and cooking the dish. Seems to me that trying Indian recipes will teach me a whole lot about cooking in general.

Like stir-frying, it requires much attention to "mise en place" and to thoroughly reading and trying to understand the recipe before starting.

I find Indian cooking slows me down in a good way - makes me pause and reflect and not just toss in this and that.

So, though the final dish was too, too hot for me, the learning experience was well worth the effort.

Which reminds me of why I enjoy certain cookbooks over others: They give me a brief description of the finished dish in terms of taste and texture so I can make a better judgement as to whether I am likely to enjoy the dish.

As an aside, my leftover Butter Chicken which I saved so virtuously for my lunch, was "stolen" by my daughter who raved on about it for ages and cleaned the dish so thoroughly it barely needed washing! I had to make do with her leftover roast beef! Who knew she liked Indian food!

But once again, thanks are due to Suvir as he works so hard to educate dummies like me.

Today, I will try my hand at Chapatis - had to make do with mini wholewheat pitas to accompany my suicidal Pork Vindaloo.

[Reference material on Indian cuisine]

Has anyone seen Meena Pathak's FLAVOURS OF INDIA ? Published 2002 by Whitecap ISBN 1-55285-374-8.

Would you care to comment on it?

It is the only cookbook on Indian food that I own though I fully intend to rectify that in the New Year. For now, I make Suvir's posted recipes and find them excellent.

Thank you.

[Indian Cooking For Dummies]

This is to keep a promise.

I have made both the Tandoori Cornish Game Hens and the Butter Chicken (Chicken Tikka Masala) both posted by Suvir Saran and I have a number of questions which may help others who are trying these dishes for the first time:

First - questions on the Tandoori dish:

Is there an easier way of getting the quantities right other than weighing them? With only a metric postal scale (my kitchen scale isn't precise enough for such small quantities) this was quite an undertaking - though I ended up having fun anyway.

Before I made the Tandoori dish, I had to roast the spices and then grind them to make the Garam Masala. From a recent post by Suvir I understand that I should have roasted each spice separately not all plopped together!

How do I know when each is roasted enough? What sort of pan would be best to use?

I used both green and black cardamom each in their pods and opened them as one would a clove of garlic - by smashing them beneath my cleaver - is there a better way - should I have roasted them in their pods? Should I have weighed them in their pods?

How does one get rid of the chaff - the bits and pieces inside the pod that are not seeds? Does it matter?

The recipe calls for paprika - I used hot Hungarian - was that right?

I tried processing the marinade ingredients in a blender but because there was not enough liquid (I cut the recipe in half) this was most unsuccessful - I made another marinade using a mini-processor and this worked much better.

By the way - the resulting dish, even with my errors, was DELICIOUS.

Now to the Butter Chicken and my questions:

The recipe calls for making a puree of onions, garlic and ginger and then browning this in oil for about 20 mins or until golden brown. This created real problems. The puree tended to stick to the pan and brown much too quickly. As noted in the recipe I kept water near by and put a little in the pan but in the end, after 20 minutes I can't say that anything except the stuff that stuck, had much colour. Was I using too big of a pan - mine was a 12 inch heavy stainless steel saute pan.

The tomatoes I was able to obtain were quite disgusting in terms of taste so I added a tablespoon or so of tomato paste, a cup or so of crushed, canned tomatoes and a mere hint of sugar just to perk up the flavour a little. (I had the canned tomatoes leftover from a pizza sauce and the tomato paste was on hand because I was about to make another concoction!) I'm betting that made in season with ripe, juicy tomatoes would send this dish right over the top in terms of flavour.

The recipe calls for covering the chicken with foil - mine didn't brown at all and I wasn't sure if it should - is it supposed to remain pristinely white? Did I cover it too tightly with foil so that it steamed instead of baked?

My cinnamon never did unfurl - could that be because it isn't really cinnamon but cassia - it is extremely thick and coiled both sides to the centre.

The recipe calls for cooking the tomato puree until the fat separates. This never happened for me. Perhaps I used too little oil?

Having said all of this and asked all these questions, the final dish was so good I had to force myself to refrigerate some else I would have continued eating until it was all gone! I can hardly wait for lunch tomorrow when I will be able to finish it up.

Thanks, Suvir for two recipes that worked for this DUMMY!

[Masalas]

Your experience, written by you, was certainly entertaining. I am sorry it was so hard. I should have told you to simply buy a small jar from an Indian grocer. But I am sure you have learned quite a lot from that garam masala making itself.

I hope you don't thing for one minute that I was complaining! Finding an Indian Grocer would have taken days never mind hours. I love the smell of the spices and I felt like a chemist weighing and measuring and mixing - it was a lovely experience.

I am sorry but I do not know how to use PMs or even what they are.

I am now attempting your "Butter Chicken" though I do not really know how it should taste. I will not feed it to The Dane as I won't risk overkill but I was anxious to try it. I redeemed myself somewhat on the messy side and managed to keep everything under control - well ALMOST - while pushing some tomato paste out of a can (nothing to do with your recipe!) I managed to drive the open end of the can into the tip of my thumb and spent some time removing the evidence and putting on six bandaids and the finger of a rubber glove so I could keep on working. Perhaps I should find another interest that is less detrimental to my health.

I know if I am to persuade The Dane to try any kind of Indian curry, it must not look at all like the disgusting stews of both our childhoods. He is not at the best of times a "stew" person though I love them. By stew I mean anything where the meat and vegetables are cooked together.

Next time I make Danish Frikadeller (meatballs) I will try to post a recipe for you so that this is more of a two-way street. I don't have a recipe as I wing it - perhaps though, being a vegetarian - it would not suit you. I'll have to try to come up with something else Danish that does not involve meat.

Thanks again for your interest and your concern. I will let you know how I find the Butter Chicken - The Dane is away until after lunch so I can indulge without imposing it on him.

[Masalas]

Let us know how it comes out.

Suvir - I wish I knew how to use the quote feature that includes name and date! But here goes on my report.

First, put an indulgent smile on your face as you read and understand that I am a newbie both to any serious cooking and certainly to Indian dishes! My husband henceforth known as The Dane, hates Indian food. Not that he's ever tasted any! What he considers Indian food is the awful "curries" served up by his mother in the 50s and 60s - basically stews into which she threw commercial curry powder. My Dad did the same so I know exactly what he is talking about - gluppy, spicy, awful coloured messes that had no taste other than stale curry powder. Consequently, the mere mention of Indian food and/or Indian restaurants meets with an immediate NO.

But The Dane can be nudged a little and that's what I am trying my best to do.

So, it seemed that your Tandoori Game Hens were a good start.

I had glanced through the recipe and determined that I had most of the ingredients on hand except "Garam Masala". However, I was very low on cumin seeds. Early in the morning I made a trip to the store to purchase these and thus began a saga that lasted most of the day.

I have only a postal scale (metric at that) to weigh ingredients and as I began to convert quantities from ounces to grams and to pour seeds and such into tiny paper cups to measure, I realized that this was an awful lot of garam masala to make so I halfed the quantities - this only made it that much more difficult to weigh accurately - I have never ever seen my tiny kitchen in such a mess Peppercorns jumped about, cumin seeds dropped randomly here and there and cinnamon flew about as I broke it up.

Then, of course, the spices needed to be dry-fried and again I think as many landed on the floor as in the pan! But I persevered wishing that you or someone who knew about dry-roasting were on hand to tell me when they were done.

On to grinding them - no big deal here but there seemed to be some pieces that did not get well ground so I sifted the end result not only to remove the unground bits but also to make sure the mace was well incorporated.

Now I had the one missing ingredient - the garam masala - so I began to assemble the ingredients for the marinade - since there are just two of us, I once again cut the recipe in half and used only one game hen and half the marinade. Further, I now read the recipe very carefully and almost fell over when I realized that the hours of work involved in preparing the garam and all I needed was "half a pinch"! I laughed so hard at myself I almost cried.

Cutting the recipe in half posed its own problem that an experienced cook would have foreseen - the blender does not like such small quantities! It balked at pureeing them. In fact, the ginger barely got scraped by the blades.

But onwards and upwards. I put the bird (a very, very scrawny specimen that seemed to shrink by a half once it had defrosted) into a plastic bag and bunged it in the fridge while I tackled a kitchen that now looked like a disaster zone.

An hour before dinner I pulled it out of the fridge and turned my oven on. This may sound a bit odd - turning the oven on an hour before I intend to use it - but I am at least experienced with this damned oven. Sure enough, it refused to heat past 325F! With a little help from The Dane and some tweaking of the dial, we eventually persuaded both elements to come on at the same time and an hour later it had reached close to 450F.

I put the bird in the oven and crossed my fingers.

Well, it turned out WONDERFUL. After the first taste The Dane

(He who hates Indian food) was making suggestions about what else could be cooked this way.

So, many THANKS for the recipe and the help - What do I do with a huge jar of Garam Masala? Hope you are still smiling at my antics.

[Masalas]

Thank you, Suvir. I am off to try to try to replicate your garam masala.

[Masalas]

Suvir: I am anxious to make your Basic Garam Masala but the "2 cinnamon sticks" threw me. I can buy cinnamon sticks ranging from 3 to 6 inches in length - (I suspect they are really cassia but the only thing I can find around here). So, when you say 2 sticks can you approximate the length? I would imagine there would be a big difference in the final product if I put in 2-6 inch sticks and you meant 2 inch sticks! Many thanks for all your helpfulness and kindness on this board - I love your posts.

[Authentic Fish & Chips]

Funny you should try that: actually, I got the recipe more than 20 years ago from Family Circle magazine, in a series The Best of The Best, this one on ... onion rings! Just goes to show that the simplest can indeed be the best.  

No, I shall go on and try others but I've been doing so many experiments to get certain things right that I am afraid by the time I perfect a recipe I will never want to eat it again! Right now, I don't think I could look at another onion bhaji for years!

But who knows - tomorrow I just might crave fish and chips.

Thanks for your input

[Authentic Fish & Chips]

OK so I couldn't wait until we were ready for another fish fry and since I was experimenting with onion bhajis, I decided to try onion rings instead of fish (for the batter!).

I thought simple was best to begin with so I used the simplest of the recipes offered - 12 ozs of beer and 1 1/2 cups flour - cover and leave for 3 hours - AMAZING! Crispy, light, bubbly and hours after I made them and left a couple still sitting on the paper towel where I drained them - STILL CRISPY!

If I get no further I will be happy but I know I won't be able to resist trying a couple of the other recipes (esp. the one with yeast).

I don't see why the batter will be any different on fish but the proof will be when I am ready to make another fish fry.

THANK YOU.

[Authentic Fish & Chips]

Thanks, everyone.

I was a bit suspicious about the egg whites but have made a number of Christine Cushing's recipes and have found them pretty good so I trusted her on this one.

I will try both with and without the yeast.

I do use a thermometer and am careful not to put more than two or three small pieces of fish in at any one time so that the temp doesn't plummet.

I promise to report back but I think we just might be "fished out" for now so it may be a week or two before I give it another try.

Once again, thanks to all who offered support and advice. I hope the original poster of this thread found this useful too.