Dave the Cook

What does this mean?

Yea... I didn't make that up. I have actually heard people whose expertise I respect say it. I think that the mechanism by which fat is rendered out of meat is stronger than the mechanism by which fat is absorbed back into meat. And, if you cook somehing in a liquid bath for several hours, you are going to render out pretty much all the fat in whatever it is you're cooking. I would actually be interested to see data on just how much fat is absorbed into a piece of meat cooked submerged in fat. My guess is that it's not very much, especially when compared to vegetables (and especially starches). I don't think there's any net gain of fat. I would doubt that there's ever a net weight gain at all. There's too much stuff -- fat, collagen, water -- that gets loosened up and starts moving during long periods over heat. Once the cells give this stuff up, it's very difficult to get it back in, because cellular structures and muscle networks have been transformed, too. At best, you might get some re-uptake of liquids as the meat cools and the muscle fibers relax. As you point out, a starch molecule behaves very differently when it's heated. (Made it up? I figured either you had done it, seen it done, or were conducting a thought experiment, which is somehow more noble than just making stuff up.)

Your first example isn't analogous. But have you actually tried the second? I'm as certain as I can be, without having done it myself, that you're right about what happens. I suppose the cellular structure allows fat out, but then locks up in the heat before fat can flow back in?

I would have said that a confitted (if I may indeed say that) duck leg was no fattier than its raw counterpart, but I would not have claimed less fatty. Admittedly, I haven't done any sort of analysis. How does your explanation stack up against the principle of diffusion?

Can there be any question? It's Artichokes Poached in Olive Oil and Butter. Now... that might not sell as many portions as Confit of Artichokes. Exactly.

Chad: I'm not willing to guess what Gray Kunz is thinking. I too find the elasticity employed when applying classical terms to new dishes confusing sometimes. But I can easily see how it happens: I have this thing I do with frozen artichoke hearts, where I simmer them over very low heat for about 45 minutes in a mixture of butter and EVOO. I actually got the idea from an article in the LA Times by Keller and Ruhlman (apparently no longer on line) about barigoule. Normally you would start with fresh artichokes, but I don't always have time to do the prep work. Anyway, what I do is a way to make a mediocre product a good bit more palatable. One of the kids asked what I called this dish. I don't remember how I replied. So you tell me. Is it: "Artichokes Poached in Olive Oil and Butter"? "Revisionist Barigoule"? Or "Confit of Artichokes"?

But Ringo is the only minor Beatle left!

No added fat? That is revisionist. But is it confit? I'm not sure, Archie. She does, however ,give instructions on how to store the rendered fat, so you'll have it around next time you make real confit. (She has a recipe for "homemade margerine" that sounds pretty good. Sorry...back to confit.) I retrieved this definition from the Food TV Encyclopedia (sorry, Lily, I left my Larousse at home): So I think Schneider's recipe, like the one Helenas used in the thread she linked, is baked duck legs. Does Schneider claim that the legs can be stored as if they were non-revisionist confit?

No added fat? That is revisionist. But is it confit?

Oh? Is there any actual evidence that this is the case? I'm not asking this facetiously, I'm actually curious. It wouldn't surprise me too much if moon phases and such turned out have an effect on plant propagation, in a chaotic/sensitive-dependence-on-initial-conditions way. But if that's the case, you will find it nearly impossible to prove.

Do you have any examples, Craig - not which producers, but which practices?

I'm completely new to this stuff, but if you take away the cow's horns and stag bladders, aren't you just talking about plain old organic farming?

Well, here's what's at my local farmer's market: asparagus cabbage yellow squash green beans red leaf lettuce greens: lettuce, arugula, Swiss chard, mizuna and baby collards bell peppers yellow beans I keep coming back to asparagus -- $2 a pound

How 'bout this one, from Ikea?

Me, too.

First, you may have some interest in Dave's brining course That said... in re to duck, it strikes me that duck is fatty enough that brining is usually not required for the meat to stay moist, so there is likely very little to gain. If you are searing the breasts and serving them rare, they will be moist no matter what. If you are making confit with the legs, a lot of the liquid will cook out of them no matter what. Even slow roasted, falling-off-the-bone whole duck has been plenty moist for my taste. I don't see how brining would effect the rendered fat for further use, so no worries there. I have to disagree with Sam on one point. I think duck can benefit from brining, as most of its fat is subcutaneous, rather than intramuscular. If you skin a duck and trim the extraneous fat, even a domestic bird is pretty lean, and wild ducks are exceptionally so. I've brined ducks a couple of times, and I recommend it as an alternative approach for relatively slow methods, e.g. smoking and roasting. Obviously, this is a is a matter of taste. I would not brine for confit, for the reason Sam stated, and I agree that a sear-and-slice technique with the breasts makes brining moot. But if you're roasting or grilling, it's worth a try to see if you like the results. I also support the contention that brining will have no deleterious effect on rendered duck fat. It might be a little salty, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing, either from a taste or a preservation standpoint.

Good idea. I never thought of doing this with the breast alone. Do you use the water trick when you're rendering the rest of the skin for fat? I agree it makes for a very clean result, since the temperature is well controlled.

Fair enough. I've never turned it back up after it's in the oven. I'll try it. I was really only underscoring cheftoad's implication that the skin takes longer than one might think to reach a state of perfection, especially if your reference point is a chicken breast. To come completely clean, I do both sides on the stove top -- skin down, then up -- then put it skin down for the last stretch. The thing is, there's still fat being rendered, so the skin is very well lubricated, and immersion frying is a dry-heat method.

I agree. It takes a surprisingly long time for the breast skin to get really brown and crisp. This method lets you keep heat on the skin while cooking the second side. But I'm confused by the "warm up" after resting. Doesn't that just set the juices off again?

I think I counted 300 books in the cooking stacks at my house. But this thread has exposed innumerable flaws in my collection. Chad: if it helps, be happy that your library has even heard of Jacques Torres. Mine is far more acquainted with the culinary talents of Suzanne Somers, Al Roker (not too awful, actually) and Dom DeLuise.

Sounds easy, right? Edited to add grin, in case anyone thought I might be serious. Oh hell, I did this just last night. Except I used a castrated male duck instead of a female.

I was going by Chad's remark:

To recap, we are cooking more or less the same meal at more or less the same time to: 1) encourage each other that we need more cookbooks 2) encourage each other to buy additional kitchen tools. Did I miss anything? No, that's about it.

Thanks for the wine tip, Chad, and welcome. As long as were here, I'm going to expose my wine ignorance. As I understand it: - Pinot noir is characteristic of Burgundy. - Grenache, syrah, mouvedre and cisnault are characteristic of Cote du Rhone wines. But both are Burgundies, right? Jacques is pretty insistent on a pinot noir for cooking (but then suggests a Cab for drinking). For a braised dish, and in the absence of the sort of specificity that Jacques provides, I would normally use a blend of some sort, and I'd tend towards a fruity version of it, if that's the right way to refer to the grenache-syrah blends from Australia, South America and Spain. Comments? Should I stick to Pinot Noir?

Really??!! Twelve dollars? I was going to say there's no way I'm buying a torch, but for twelve bucks.... Flame on!