dmreed

thanks...at $.13 + shipping, "Terrific Pacific Cookbook" looks interesting so I just ordered it. fast approaching 800 Asian cookbooks in my collection!

Not that I've ever seen in my 15 years in China, but if you like it that way, go for it. many thanks for your personal observations, they are greatly appreciated. And I do serve it over noodles at home and I have even ordered it that way at several restaurants. I was just thinking that, to the north-east of Sichuan, mapo dofu might be served over noodles because of the prevalence of noodles versus rice...just a thought.

how close is the sauce of Zha Jiang Mian to Mapo Dofu? the reason I ask is because I prefer mapo dofu over soft noodles rather than over rice. is mapo dofu ever served over noodles in China?

I am still trying out liquid smoke to see if it can approximate wok hay. tonight I added a little more and the smoky taste was just a bit too much. Somewhere between my two attempts of too little and too much (both done by eye-balling) may be the key...I will start measuring. I am sure that liquid smoke will never replace genuine wok hay but, for those with inadequate heat to achieve wok hay, liquid smoke may be a reasonable/interesting approximation! If you want to try this approximation, I would recommend a generic non-wood-specific (not hickory nor mesquite, etc) variety of liquid smoke if at all possible.

I think I have the same impression of wok hei as Ben. Meat/veg/etc. might not be charred in anyway, especially some dishes with lighter meats (no obvious charring). What I think wok hei is: because we can get such high temperatures with the wok, the oil can seal meat (etc) so that the oil does not seep into the food and make it oily.High temperature is a must to carry the food from wok to table. Dry fried beef ho fun (gon chow nagu hor) is a signature dish for wok hei (IMO). I realize that taste is a very subject experience. BTW have you tasted/smelled wok hay in oil heated in a wok with no other ingredients? I have not tasted plain oil heated in a wok but, when the oil smokes, I do not smell wok hay. I think I would prefer a less divisive than "charring"/"char" might be useful...how about "DHFC" dry heat food changes (deep frying is considered dry heat cooking according to Wikipedia) which includes, at least, the Maillard reaction and caramelization both of which are complex chemical processes (Beb Hong's "hot oil doing its stuff"). I would definitely extend that definition to include high heat wok cooking and definitely grilling over direct flame/heat. Even light colored ingredients including meats experience DHFC. Personally, I experience DHFC taste/smell from the wok as a slightly charred smell/taste...others may have different experiences. I am definitely interested in finding a scientific explanation for the subjective experience of wok hay. So please continue to provide explanations and experiences for this wonder experience!

OK with "spatial evenness"! agreed regarding Asian buffets...the best one can hope for at a buffet is relative freshness by catching a dish as it arrives from the kitchen!

I would suggest that some of the carbon bits are indeed bits of charred food. I thought I specified "a slight charred taste"...nothing like the taste of a charred steak! Many of the cookbooks describe briefly cooking the meat and then removing it before cooking other ingredients...I am sure you would find tiny bits of the meat still in the wok. Because I am not Chinese and not an expert, I was glad to find the following which I excerpted from a much larger discussion...the bolding is mine: Wok hay from chowhound http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/344167#2035653 I agree with you up to a point. I'm a native Cantonese speaker, by the way, so I grew up using this term instinctively. "the effect of very high heat used properly" - exactly. It's the difference between pushing pieces of chicken around a nonstick sautee pan over a crappy electric stove, vs. the same pieces of chicken being rapidly tossed in a red hot wok over a huge flame. If you've ever seen footage of a good Chinese kitchen you'll notice that practically everything is set alight at some stage - the oil almost always bursts into flame for a brief time and it's not because there is alcohol present in the dish. That intense searing means (I believe) that flavour is not given the time to seep out of the ingredients - it's flash-fried and sealed in. I marginally, marginally agree with you re: pizza, as there are obviously very different ways of imparting heat to a pizza, but your fresh-out-of-the-oven osso buco, however delicious, cannot really be said to have wok hay... clearly long-cooking in an oven is going to give a more even heat than microwave heating, but wok hay doesn't simply refer to even heating throughout. The searing is important, that slightly charred, caramelised flavour is important, and the brevity of cooking time is paramount. I sincerely appreciate this discussion! -------------------------------------------- Earlier umami was compared to wok hay, the following link might shed some light: http://www.ajiusafood.com/_docs/IIhotasianconcept.pdf Of course, a google search on umami yields a vast amount of information.

actually the slight charring I was referring to are just very tiny charred specks...virtually all dishes with wok hay that I have eaten in restaurants or have cooked at home have had those very tiny specks...they are so small that they may easily be hidden even by a thin sauce. I definitely am not suggesting that large black charred spots are on the food. it may be possible that very tiny bits of the food have charred in the oil and not appeared on the food itself. beef or pork cooked in a very hot wok with oil will definitely have at least tiny charred bits...I suggest that it would be impossible not to get the tiny charring! for me, wok hay definitely has that slight charred smell and taste!

the steam or even the simple spattering of oil droplets will allow flaming. I agree about the "taste" of flaming but I do think part of wok hay is the slightly charred food caused by the extremely hot oil/wok. the oil laden vapor contains the taste/smell of wok hay...in my experience, oil vapor by itself does not smell like wok hay unless, perhaps, it is the pre-heated/seasoned oil I mentioned earlier. I surely enjoy these discussions and clarifications and I try to apply all the new techniques or information as soon as possible...which is usually pretty soon because I cook Asian food 3-5 times a week. BTW last night, following my own earlier question, I tried a couple of drops of liquid smoke in some stir fried Asian vegetables to see if the taste/smell would approximate wok hay...the results were inconclusive...no smell or taste of the smoke so I will try again with a few more drops.

The liquid that you spoke of is Chinese cooking wine, I believe. Alcohol. Oil droplets + alcohol + high heat = flame. You don't really need to use a lighter to deliberately "light the wok on fire". The oil/alcohol fume over high heat, just tilting the wok slightly it will "catch" the flame. even water or soy sauce can and will cause sufficient spattering to cause/allow flaming. that is why I asked the original poster if the chef used a lighter of some kind or simply tipped the wok and if the tipping was to cause flaming or if it was just part of shaking the wok.

a definite tilt or a shaking of the ingredients? before or after adding some liquid? just curious, this is very interesting to me.

did the chef actually use some device to ignite the oil or did he/she tilt the wok to allow ignition? what I have observed with Chinese chefs is a brief flair up when the wok is shaken after some liquid is first added...the liquid caused the hot oil to spatter and then the oil ignites briefly. I am under the impression that the extremely hot wok/oil (basically impossible on an ordinary stove top) slightly chars the ingredients which produces the wok hay...at least, that is what I taste and smell. I agree with the previous post stating that slight carmelization probably occurs but I doubt it is enough to taste/smell. IMHO trying to ignite the oil inside at home would be very dangerous unless the stove hood and cooking area are designed for such a practice. the flash point of oils vary but if vaporized oil accumulates in the cooking area, the room could actually explode! properly equipped professional kitchens have powerful venting systems to prevent such occurances. even outside could be dangerous, remember all the warnings regarding deep frying a turkey outside and the possibility of spattering oil causing a fire!

"wok hay" essentially means "breath of the wok"! I have never seen a Chinese chef light the oil on fire...I suspect that the chef you saw did not intentionally light the oil fumes on fire but that the fumes and spatter from the extremely hot wok simply drifted down and ignited...this even sometimes happens when cooking a steak in a skillet!

I have read in multiple places that "tsap sui" (Toishanese), "tsa sui" (Mandarin), "shap sui" (Toishanese/Cantonese) all mean "bits and pieces". In "The Chinese Kitchen - A Traditional Approach to Eating" by Yong Yap Cotterell (c. 1986) on page 9, she writes: "Poorer people found solace in humbler eating houses, and the very poor made do with boiled left-overs from restaurants, zacui - anglicized as 'chop-suey'. Until quite recently this was the diet of beggars and rickshaw pullers." In "The True History of Chop Suey" by Andrew Coe, for About.com http://chinesefood.about.com/od/foodamerica/a/chop-suey-history.htm?nl=1: "What is chop suey? In Chinese, the two characters for chop suey are pronounced "tsa sui" in Mandarin or in Cantonese "shap sui," meaning "mixed small bits" or "odds and ends." As a culinary term, shap sui refers to a kind of stew made of many different ingredients mixed together. Shap sui probably first came to the United States with the waves of Chinese immigrants drawn to the California gold fields. Most came from the South China coasts Pearl River Delta and particularly the town of Toishan. In the 1870s, the Chinese were pushed from the American West by racial violence, migrating to cities like Philadelphia, Boston, and New York. There Americans first noticed a dish called "chow-chop-suey. "However, rumors spread that chop suey wasn't really Chinese at all. Tales circulated that it was concocted by a San Francisco Chinese boardinghouse cook using scraps retrieved from the garbage. The "experts" who recounted these stories were usually Chinese diplomats or students for whom this Toishanese peasant food didn't seem "Chinese" at all. "But if you go down to Chinatown (referring to USA), find a Toishanese chef, and convince him that you want Chinese-style shap sui, you will discover that it can be a toothsome stew." In "The Step-By-Step Chinese Cookbook" by Georges Spunt, Thomas Crowell, Publishers, 1973: "CHOP SUEY "Sub Gum "Every writer of Chinese cookbooks lays claim to a story about this particular dish. Most are agreed that Chop Suey, as we know it, is an American adaption of an old Cantonese standby called Sub Gum." --------------------------- Although many Chinese have said that there is no, or rather was no, "chop suey" in China and that it cannot be found in Chinese restaurants in China. I am under the impression that today in major Chinese cities some restaurants do serve "chop sui" for international travelers especially the gwei loh who expect/desire the dish. All the above references suggest to me that "chop suey", and especially its Anglisized name, is indeed a dish which originated in China. When reviewing various supposedly "authentic" Chinese "sub gum" recipes, the only difference from "chop suey" recipes is that "chop suey" usually/frequently includes bean sprouts. BTW I am definitely aware that it is foolish to accept the claims of many authors/authorities as absolute truth regarding Chinese cuisine and ingredients, e.g., I have read several places claims that there is no "Chinese fish sauce" and that "fish sauce" is not used in Chinese cooking...by "fish sauce" they are referring to fermented fish sauce as used in Thai and Vietnamese cooking. I have read a lot of Chinese and Asian cookbooks and my ever-growing collection can be found at http://dmreed.com/food-cooking-asian-cookbooks.html . I have scanned every one of the 700+ books and read many recipes especially "chop suey" and "sub gum" recipes in detail.

thanks, much appreciated. BTW can you please explain to me what "tsap sui" means, I think it is a Toysanese dish.

again, much thanks

The pronounciations you posted sound like Cantonese but not pure. My guess is perhaps Cantonese with Toisanese accent? They are not Mandarin for sure. Regardless of the dialect, the Chinese characters are the same. HOM like salt: 鹹 FOO from very slightly bitter to very bitter: 苦 TOM like rice or the "baked" flavor of bread: Not sure what taste you were referring to LOT like in mustard or chili peppers: 辣 GUM cool, acrid-sweet like citrus peel: 甘

Chinese characters: TEEM for SWEET: 甜 SEEN for SOUR: 酸 HEONG for pan-flavor: 香 (I think this is what you were referring to) WOK HAY: 鑊氣 (I bought a hand-writing Chinese input device. Entering Chinese characters is much easier now. ) - 阿梁 thanks...are the above Mandarin, Cantonese??? Really nice to see you are still here!!!!!! how about the remaining flavors: HOM like salt FOO from very slightly bitter to very bitter TOM like rice or the "baked" flavor of bread LOT like in mustard or chili peppers GUM cool, acrid-sweet like citrus peel

thanks...but it is interesting!

thanks, greatly appreciated...do you have a literal translation of xiān wèi? how about the Cantonese name? BTW I am starting a Taste/Flavor page on my site: http://dmreed.com/food-cooking-tastes_and_flavors.html this thread although not as active as it once was continues to be a great source of information!

there are Chinese names for flavors and tastes such as TEEM for SWEET, SEEN for SOUR, HEONG for pan-flavor or WOK HAY, etc. using soy sauce and other fermented soy products, I know the Chinese are aware of the Japanese flavor called UMAMI but what is the Chinese name for this flavor?

Bonnie, it is great that you provided a new total. because the original reason for the thread is done, the only totals will now be the actual total counts provided by each postr.

my current Asian cookbook collection count is 731 with a few not yet cataloged (see http://dmreed.com/food-cooking-asian-cookbooks.html)

shortly after posting the above, I started adding 2 cubes of fermented bean curd as well as the 2 Tbls. of fermented black beans to my mapo dofu recipe for 4 servings. I also bought 1/2 lb. of Ghost Chilis and now make my chili oil with them. instead of adding 4-6 drops of commercial chili oil to a bowl of soup, I now add 2 drops of my Ghost Chili Oil!