Wilfrid

So, her web-site's quite funny isn't it? At least, the Bites section is. She's right about Esca as well as Otto. Or have I missed something? Now, Steve, I am not trying to do well or average or bad, I am just attempting to rein in your hyperbole. Among the background noise, side comments and gags, several members here have made points about Steve Klc's article (the tone of which gave me no trouble whatsoever, incidentally), and Steve has written three (is it four?) replies to those comments. I expect this thread could schramble on for another ten pages, but so far it is by no means out of line with the kind of debate a contentious article will attract in the pages of literary/arts and political journals. Yes, the e-format is faster and unedited, and different from print media in many ways. Is the degree of engagement between an author and his/her readers seen here unprecedented? Give me a break. Put your trumpet down, get your nose out of the NYT, and read something serious for a change. Edit to remove unnecessary indefinite article.

Except in those journals and newspapers which devote much of their space for readers' letters to this kind of discussion. Unofficial Site Pedant. (P.S. Good thread. I suppose I'll have to read the article now.)

Here's a neat little summary of my point. I had forgotten the kitchens in the palace, although the harem remains fresh in my mind.

Finally had time to read this thread. It was acknowledged early on that Greek cuisine is not homogenous, but the same point has not been made with sufficient specificity about Turkish cuisine. On this occasion, Steve P. is right - inadvertently no doubt - about the important role played by the aristocracy. There is a distinct Turkish cuisine associated with the Sultans of the Ottoman empire. It is distinguished by complex spicing, the use of fruits, nuts, and other sweet and fragrant flavors (rosewater, for example), and a revernece for rice cookery comparable to that seen in Japan. The classic dishes of this cuisine are elegent, intricate pilaffs. You can find this kind of food in some restaurants in Istanbul - the restaurant at the top of the Sheraton was serving a tasting menu of these dishes last time I was there. Turkish food served in ordinary restaurants and in the street is really quite different, a lot more simple, and does indeed share much in common with Greek cuisine. I won't speculate about the food of the Turkish countryside, because I sometimes feel fettered by ignorance. I am not aware of any equivalent aristocratic tradition in Greece. I would just say that there's a pretty big disjuncture between the food of ancient Greece, as codified by Athanasius in the Deipnosophists and modern Greek food.

Don't know if this is a cocktail or not, but I found this last night in Waverley Root. A strong espresso, a tablespoon of rum, sugar to taste, and a twist of lemon. Just the thing for a cold morning.

That was an interesting report. It made me look back over the thread and wonder why people don't seem to be eating at Bayona or the original Emeril's, which I've found to be streets ahead of the other upscale dining options. Qualification: I haven't been to Brigtsens.

Right, he can just eat the ears. Although he may personally feel that smacks of cannibalism.

Ah, that I don't know, but logic suggests that a different sort of black bean would be the best substitute. I'd be worried about getting the manioc flour - but maybe it's everywhere, I've never had cause to look.

Are you in England, Simon? I should've thought any kind of black bean would do; most New York supermarkets have them.

Yes, this is a dish which will need some serious shopping. I too have never made it, and the food versions tend to contain more adventurous meats than Time-Life contemplates. Ears are pretty much de rigeur.

Let's not assume that from Fat Bloke's post. I think adding milk or butter is fairly normal.

Milk, cream or butter surely change the texture and flavor in a way some people like; helps the eggs not to dry out as they set. Isn't it as simple as that? I haven't heard of adding water.

Where dat?

Memory suggests Cabby posted a fulsome report not long ago. It involved people "literally" taking in cosmopolitans is the bit I remember. She didn't like it.

Steve defined baby beef as "too old to be veal but not old enough to be real beef". I'm sorry irish Cream hasn't enjoyed it because it was memorably good at Blue Hill. This is just a footnote, because I'm reminded that just a few days ago I saw the term "baby beef" - which I thought was something new - in an old Waverley Root book, The Food of Italy. Apparently it was all the rage in Tuscany. And the waiting-in-the-lounge comments have given me an idea for a thread in the New York forum. Sorry, carry on...

I agree about Artisanal. And perhaps people would care, but don't know enough. I see any number of shrivelled-up Epoisses being sold, and struggle to find English cheeses that aren't desperately over-aged.

And we all know where they end up.

I haven't noticed that you are generally plagued by that problem.

Well, you mentioned Basildog as an example of one approach. Are there examples of the single market approach at the NY three or four star level? (Not that this has to be about New York - I am just trying to get a grip on the topic; or should we have a new thread?).

Too much information. I am reminded that, a few weeks ago, I did see a (male) yuppie emerging from Blue Smoke threaten to punch out a woman who, allegedly, had brushed past him. One for Brett Easton Ellis. (Don't worry folks, reason prevailed.)

Hmm. You reminded me of my plan to kidnap Momo. But I can't now remember what my demands were. Re Steve P's market argument, I think it's slightly more complex than two-sided (either lump the market together or sort it into different segments). You have to introduce the factor of what kind of a restaurant it is or is trying to be. I can see stratification not making much sense for Basildog's business; it might make a lot of sense for a place like Daniel. We can't treat all restaurants as if they're essentially interchangeable for this type of discussion.

That's a bit different - when you know they've got something and they're not letting you have it. I've had to make assertive requests in the past for goat's intestines and for a menu in Spanish, not English. "What is wrong with taking whatever steps are necessary in getting what you want? " Yes, I generally go to the more difficult restaurants armed to the teeth.

Anything for Stella: 1. The WSJ journos seem to have behaved in a manner which doesn't make much sense - just showing up a restaurants and demanding an off menu meal without much reason for it. This may set a bad example, if readers think this is appropriate behavior. 2. Are there any moral issues with restaurants offering dishes or ingredients only to some customers, either keeping them off the menu or holding them back for regulars? We seem to have whittled it down to the complaint that the average customer simply doesn't know that these options exist - a complaint not without merit, but it has been suggested that there are other retail situations, such as bespoke tailoring, where a customer is not going to know about every option unless they engage in a discussion with the provider. 3. People should be permittedm, of course, to seek the dining experience which best suits them - whether it involve challenging the kitchen to be creative, or enjoying and evaluating the service and menu available to all customers without the need for special requests. 4. Is it okay to act like a jerk? I think that's about where I am. Let's gird our loins for the next ten pages.

The point I was trying to make is that no-one turns a hair at the idea of arranging a special, off menu meal in advance from a restaurant (and Cabby, it doesn't really matter for my point whether I leave all culinary decisions to the chef or not), yet people seem terribly concerned about the idea of making appropriate and courteous enquiries on the day. As I said pages back, I can't see any point doing the latter unless one has already sampled what is on the menu, but I also can't see anything very shocking about it. (I think we've all agreed that asking rudely, complaining about being refused, and generally behaving like a jerk, are negatives.)

Take out sweet and sour chicken or pork is one of my remaining fast food indulgences. I genuinely don't like much fast food any more. But I will eat the most objectionable version of this dish - preferably with French fries - quite happily.