Wilfrid

But is it Tommy's contention that you can't get wine by the glass at the other Batali restaurants? Just to stay right on topic.

I've stumbled over 1990 Trimbach Gewurtztraminer, and this thread has stimulated by appetite for it. Am I right in thinking I may as well drink it now, or will it continue to age interestingly?

They were serving only the 25cl quartinos at first (oh, see Otto thread page 947)....

I'm obliged to you, sir, for pointing out my lack of rigour, and I retire abashed.

What's emerging so far is that there's little disagreement about which restaurants are in the race. I need to go to March again, but from memory, even after the remodelling, it was a fairly tight-packed space. But we really seem to have only one or two contenders in mind (and I've also wondered allowed whether Lespinasse isn't due for a downgrading). I'm not sure the NYT does have it wrong at this level - the two star category is a disaster. Steve, are there not Italian restaurants with three Michelin stars?

I just had a chance to ponder the list of four star "contenders", to which I'd certainly add Le Cirque and March (I haven't been to Bayard's or Lutece since the chef changes - I wonder?). Two aspects where they fall down, in my view: limited ambition in the cuisine and/ or setting. By the first, I mean they are trying to serve you a good meal, but not the "best meal you could possibly eat in NYC"; by the second - and I am agreeing with Bux and others here - they fall short on the comfort, luxury and ease of a four star. Lacking culinary ambition: Craft, Gramercy Tavern, La Cote Basque, Veritas, Le Cirque Lacking the right setting: Babbo, Kuruma Sushi, Union Pacific, March Lacking both: Aquavit, Eleven Madison Park, Gotham Bar & Grill, Montrachet, Patria, Picholine, Tabla I am not sure Babbo and Union Pacific - although ambitious - achieve consistency, although in the case of Babbo I am relying largely on reports. I haven't been to Nobu, or to Chanterelle in recent memory. None of this is to say the above are bad restaurants. They just haven't entered (with the possible exceptions of Le Cirque and Nobu) this particular race.

All seems very sensible. Were the slices of steak served on toast, as Mitchell describes, or were you just grabbing hunks of meat? (The Mitchell piece, collected in Up In the Old Hotel - readily available - is highly recommended.)

Fair comments there. I did enjoy the polenta which came with the mushrooms, but found the mushrooms a bit flat - I could do no better or worse sauteeing up a handful from the local food store. But yes, very reasonable.

Thanks, Bux. I see it's rated highly. Will consider it.

We threw some recipes up last season. It would be good to have more.

I went along for the reservation I'd had in place before Robert Schonfeld posted. He and Marcus had it about right, so I won't add much. It's a large place, it was packed on Saturday night, and very noisy. The candlelit ambience in the old Tudor City Place building would be romantic if you could hear your dining companion. I had no expectations of Italian authenticity; we judged it a pleasant meal. I wouldn't choose it over San Domenico, and I'm not sure it was all that much better than I Trulli, a less ambitious Italian restaurant we dined at a week ago. One comment, I thought it was suprisingly inexpensive given its location and apparent target audience. Four courses - appetizer, pasta, entree, dessert - for less than fifty dollars is cheap these days. Okay, $49 a head - and there are a number of supplements, but not big ones, typically $4. We drank a thoroughly disappointing and expensive Brunello di Montalcino, but there are reasonably priced Italian bottles on the list, and I think two people could come out of here for less than two hundred bucks. Not easy these days. But aside from budgetary reasons, why go back?

Thanks for taking the trouble to write up the meal. I can't disagree that there's an architectural similarity between the two most exciting dishes - the quail and the squab - and it may therefore be a mistake to serve them both on the tasting menu - but I see we agree they are both very nice. As for some of the other dishes, it sounds like you suffered from kitchen errors in terms of seasoning and temperatures. I am very sensitive indeed to being served cold food which has been standing around. It hasn't been a problem for me at Atelier, but at those prices they should be getting it right every time. My slight disagreement with your perception was that I felt that, unlike the tasting menus at other upscale New York restaurant in the French tradition, Kreuther had tried to construct a series of interesting, varied dishes, rather than sending out a succession of luxury ingredients in relatively simple preparations. I have eaten numerous tasting menus which seems to consist of a series of rectangles of tender protein, garnished with caviar, truffles or foie gras to make them interesting. I thought the intriguing made dishes on the menu - the quail and squab especially - and the very robust soup - separated Atelier from the pack.

Zagat's comment struck me as shrewd. Anyone remember Otto not serving wine by the glass? That lasted, like, ten minutes. Asa for WD50, well it sounds very, er... brave.

Pork chops can be tenderized and much improved by a few hours in a marinade, however you intend to cook them.

Darn, she out-ponced me!

I wouldn't drink anything out of Tommy's eGullet mug. Regular readers will know why. Being English, I eschew mugs. I need a cup and saucer. Fishs Eddie (silly name) on Broadway sells sturdy, moderately tasteful coffee cups for everyday use.

I envy someone who is trying to complicate their life in the evenings! This may be obvious, but stews and braises are easy to pack in a plastic contained, improve overnight and re-heat okay. You could spend a couple of evenings at least making elaborate and authentic versions of coq au vin, daube de veau or pot au feu. I used to spend nights making dishes like this in idle moments when baby wouldn't sleep. A bit of crusty bread to dip, and there you go.

Would it be fair to say that most NYT two and perhaps all NYT one star restaurants would be below the Michelin one star radar? I am just thinking that the Michelin guides don't even attempt to rank restaurants much below an NYT three star level. I may be totally wrong - I've hardly looked at a Michelin since I left Europe.

Thanks for the CitySearch link. Here's a link the current dinner menu. No-one posting on the old thread seemed to have been since its heyday. Edit: Now I'm looking at the CitySearch ratings system. Based on both editorial and user input, but weighted in favor of the editorial. Which means you didn't necessarily score it an eight, but... Feel free to carry this back to the other thread, I'm getting dizzy.

I had a couple of above average dining experiences at Lutece while Eberhard Mueller was in the kitchen. I haven't returned, and haven't heard much about the place, since he moved to Bayard's. Did Lutece have a refurbishment? Has anyone dined there under the current chef? Discussing its current 2 star status, alongside Joe's Shanghai and Cafe Sabarsky, on the NYT ratings thread brought it to mind. I might put it on the list for a re-visit, but feel free to save me from myself.

Spot-checking with Zagat, I see that the restaurants I'd put at the bottom of that category generally get a 22 for food, while the ones I'd put at the top get a 25. That's quite a difference in the Zagat context. Ergo, Zagat does the ranking job better for the NYC mid-level. Which is a way of saying, Nick, I think the top and bottom are more than one and a half stars apart.

Well, chalk up a vote for the pizzas. I must say, I fancy the mortadella sandwich.

And both of those, I assume, had four stars before he came along. Looking again at the list, I think it's the two star category that's the mess. The four, three and one star listings don't seem far off the mark, although one could quibble here and there. But with two stars, you have a range of restaurants of utterly different levels of ambitio and achievement, not to say cost. Where shall we go tonight? Lutece or Shaan of India? Atelier or Chelse Bistro and Bar? Blue Hill or Joe's Shanghai? Bayard's or Eight Mile Creek? Seems to me this is the heart of the nonsense in terms of outcome, if not process. If this category was divided into three or four - so they'd be giving ratings of, say 0 to 7 stars, then the ranking might be of some use.

If Le Cirque had a fourth star in either its previous or current incarnation, it's been demoted now.

I just picked up a copy of the Davin book from ABE books for a few bucks. And there are plenty more on sale there.