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Vadouvan

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    Raising the Bar

    in Pennsylvania: Dining

    Posted · Edited by Vadouvan (log)

    For one thing, it is expensive to train and retrain with real booze. For another, spirits and the cocktails made from them can't necessarily be drunk ad infinitum--they make you drunk. Absolutely, one should be tasting the gnumenon and then aspire to proportionalize its approximation but using real booze to try and get a manhattan right seems unnecessary if one is making 10, 20 of them in class.

    With no real disrespect intended to these schools' proprietors, the real problem with these "mixology" schools is that it's a waste of the students' money and time. Bartenders should learn on the job--one barbacks and learns the intangible elements of timing, product priority and service.

    It's expensive to go to cooking school, photography school or Wine school.

    You charge money and waste a lot of food,paper and wine.

    That is the point if you are charging.

    People dont learn with placebos.

    Lets call a spade a spade.....

    The real issue here is a "mixology school" using real booze would almost certainly have to get a liquor license which costs at least $75 grand not to mention the inventory of booze to practice with.

    This is just a way of doing it on the cheap with minimal capital.

    It's BS.

    There are bartending schools that use real booze, not many in PA because of your liquor laws which somehow manage to be bothe arcane and archaic.

    Raising the Bar

    in Pennsylvania: Dining

    Posted · Edited by Vadouvan (log)

    The intrinsic and insurmountable problem with the whole Idea of a mixology class that doesnt actually use real spirits is that it has no basis for feedback that in essence it is 95% a waste of time.

    You may learn all the attributes that makes you a good bartender such as speed, prioritizing and multi-tasking but ultimately you have zero basis to determine if the product you are making is good.

    The ONLY way to determine if a drink is good is to taste it.

    Without taste there is Nothing.

    Smoking Mirrors.

    I do applaud the owners of the concept for coming up with what is in essence the perfect crime.

    "Hypothetical" Ethical Restaurant Dilemma Poll

    in Pennsylvania: Dining

    Posted

    That's pushing the envelope way beyond reason. In the "old" days you couldn't sue Kodak for screwing up your film developing for anything more than the value of an unexposed role of the film. And for good reason. Anyone could say they captured a million-dollar image. Same thing with contents of a hard-drive. The only way to prove it would be with a backup, and if you have a backup (as you should) what's the point of suing for recovery?

    Precisely the point, not to get off topic but in the old days our founding fathers compromised and had an amendment to the constitution to allow the right to bear arms, I cant imagine they evisioned people running around the streets with Glocks, AK-47's amd Mk10s.

    The correlation and substantive issue I was raising there is how law is translated "within the pace of technology."

    I may actually agree with you bob but we arent on the court of appeals......

    "Hypothetical" Ethical Restaurant Dilemma Poll

    in Pennsylvania: Dining

    Posted

    Good stuff Tom.

    I guess the laws just have to catch up with technology.

    the argument could then be further made that the contents of the hard drive could be of high value depending on the profession of the owner of the computer, say a photo-editor or music related stuff like Philadining.

    By the way did you ever meet Art Kaplan the Bioethics guy when you were at Penn ?

    Interesting fellow.....

    "Hypothetical" Ethical Restaurant Dilemma Poll

    in Pennsylvania: Dining

    Posted

    :laugh:

    So what you are saying in legalese Tom is that...

    The contents of the bag (assuming they fit) isnt the issue but does the modern model allow for the fact that this was a backpack specifically constructed for Laptop computers which vary in price.

    Is anything within the bag covered and what determines "reasonable", what may be reasonable to me may not be to you ?

    "Hypothetical" Ethical Restaurant Dilemma Poll

    in Pennsylvania: Dining

    Posted

    Just out of curiosity, but did they ever explicitly admit to the laptop or just the bag?

    As I recall Doc just the bag but then the legal ramifications of the bag's content's complicates things.

    BUT you can always hear when people are walking on eggshells, someone obviously looked in the bag as soon as it was found.

    I am just interested in the legal issues not to crucify anyone.

    Liability is a delicate art....

    "Hypothetical" Ethical Restaurant Dilemma Poll

    in Pennsylvania: Dining

    Posted

    Late breaking news eh? This EGullet thing is indeed far reaching and I guess not be f'd with...

    Signed Jeff L Holmes

    Actually Jeff..

    Kretch and I were discussing it a month ago over drinks in person and we never posted it till yesterday.

    I only posted to see opinions not embarass the restaurant, free speech can be exercised with caution. The decision to replace was made prior to my post but I was co-incidentally informed of it.

    EG had nothing to do with the decision.

    There is already a website for that kind of behaviour, it's called shamelessrestaurants.com......

    "Hypothetical" Ethical Restaurant Dilemma Poll

    in Pennsylvania: Dining

    Posted

    First of all, I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to post your thoughtful comments, in particular Fat Guy, Jeff L.

    V, the title of this thread is interesting. Did this actually happen to you and if so, you ought to drop the hypothetical part of the title.

    Before I continue, here are a few facts.

    To those who sent thier condolences by PM, Thanks but it actually didnt happen to me.

    Unfortunately as Jeff L. Holmes suspects, the story is not "hypothetical".

    This actually happened to a good friend of mine at a very high profile establishment that is raking in $$$$ like leaves in Vermont in october.

    He sought my advice and opinion and essentially I think his computer should be replaced.

    I am not going to name the restaurant unless either he explicitly allow's me to.

    Let me explain.

    How much $$$$$ the restaurant makes is besides the point, just a fact to note.

    Lancastermike......I am with you on the passing the buck attitude that many in our society seem to have these days but it's a bit different.

    For clarity lets call the owner of the laptop Jack.

    The basic crux of Jacks story is the restaurant did find his computer and then it disappeared.

    That information was conveyed to him.

    I would assume that if indeed they admitted that much, it's kinda lame to say "yes we found it but it's gone".

    Jack actually feels bad and loves the restaurant but he loves his laptop too and wants it back.

    There is no question that the restaurant can basically pick up the phone, call Springboard Media and have the replacement computer walked over within 30 minutes.

    End of story.

    There does seem to be some resistance and they are "resesarching insurance issues".

    I happen to think in the scope of restaurant potential litigation, this is like the fender-bender when two really nice guys have a car accident, they dont call the cops or thier insurance companies, exchange information and they hammer out a deal BECAUSE it isnt worth the hassle or DEDUCTIBLES......jeez.

    Funny enough, late breaking news and I kid you not, the restaurant conceded politely and is replacing it.

    About 6-8 weeks total time from loss to replacement.

    I guess this finishes the thread but It opens up the question of how liability is assumed if you have a bad "lost and Found" policy in a restaurant.

    And $1500 isnt even an expensive laptop as Philadining will attest to ...... :wink:

    "Hypothetical" Ethical Restaurant Dilemma Poll

    in Pennsylvania: Dining

    Posted · Edited by Vadouvan (log)

    Let's say one cool Philadelphia evening I decide I am in the mood for some Tempranillo and I decide to go to a particular restaurant.

    I have some delicious food, great drinks, see a lot of friends...........essentially a great time.

    Such a great time that it occurs to me when I get home that I absentmindedly left my backpack on the hooks underneath the bar. I was having a jovial evening and perhaps a bit buzzed but not wasted, just forgetfull Vitis Vinifera buzz

    At this point, I call the restaurant and they are closed.

    I would consider it a minor loss except inside the first flap of my backpack is an Apple Macintosh I-Mac G4.

    Next day I go to the restaurant just before they open and Inquire about my bag, in my discussions with the "staff" it is established that employees of the restaurant indeed found my bag and put it in the "office" for safekeeping ostensibly till identity of the owner was established.

    Lets call this the 1st recovery.

    Here comes the dilemma.... :hmmm:

    It is also established later in that conversation that subsequent to that 1st recovery, backpack and computer disappear again and are never to be found like Jimmy Hoffa.

    1. Should i suck it up, change my last name to Dumas and fork out $1500 for another computer because it intrinsically was my responsibility for forgeting the bag in the first place even though there is an established 1st recovery by the restaurant.

    OR

    2. Restaurant should replace my computer since they found it and it was "stolen" from thier office

    I welcome your thoughts.......

    Vetri's Osteria

    in Pennsylvania: Dining

    Posted

    m planning on drinking lots more of this as it gets warmer (along with some of that Chateau Calissanne Rosé from Moore Bros.)

    I cuncur.

    Indeed rumor has it they will have outdoor seating too.

    Speaking of Rosato

    I cany wait to see what Marc and Jeff M will do with tomatoes when they are in season again.....

    Waiting for some Buratta action at Osteria..... :wink:

    Best Outdoor Dining Spots?

    in Pennsylvania: Dining

    Posted

    Vadouvan, I think you haven't watched Jeopardy, or you'd see the problem with asking a question...

    Just sayin', is all; and the suggestion is a very good one.

    :smile:

    oh yeah i forgot the answer should be phrased as a question, jeopardy contestants make that mistake all the time.....

    and the answer is...

    Who is ______ !

    Vetri's Osteria

    in Pennsylvania: Dining

    Posted · Edited by Vadouvan (log)

    Can anyone explain to me the point of reposting pictures that are two replies away, I see this all the time and I dont get it, it just makes the thread confusing and loads the page slowly.....!

    1. A 3oz pour is simply ridiculous for Moscato D'Asti. which can (and in this case WAS) being consumed as an aperitif.

    Here are my thoughts Mr Gordon.

    First of all the dinner was spectacular again, simply outstanding pastas.

    Regarding the wine, one of the reasons i will never return to Tria again is this "dessert wine bias" that a lot of restaurants seem to engage in.

    Not to go off thread from Osteria but it's a relative issue, say you walk into a place and order a bunch of cheeses that work with sweet wine, why should you be served half the volume of any other wine ?

    There is no reason.

    It's bullshit.

    Unless it is the stickiest Pedro Ximenez or Emilio Lustau,Ports and such.

    http://www.emilio-lustau.com/

    http://www.pedroximenez.com/index_ing.htm

    The concept of the tiny dessert wine glass is simply a crime and if one orders a glass of any of the following, IMO you should get a standard pour.

    You are paying the standard price.

    Sauternes

    Barsac

    Pineau de Charentes

    Loupiac

    Jurancon

    Monbazillac

    Recioto Soave

    Banyuls

    Muscats like Rivesaltes, St Jean de Minervois, Baumes de Venise

    Which brings us back to Moscato D'Asti...

    http://www.epicurious.com/drinking/wine/be...it_pied_muscato

    David

    The argument at Osteria was that Moscato is a dessert wine which is clearly not the case.

    In fact, it primarily is an aperitif that works well as a dessert wine.

    It's a sweet sparkling wine and should be poured as any other sparkling wine

    Regardless of that when a customer walks in and orders a glass of Moscato to start, it *clearly* is an aperitif therefore the logic that we will only pour you half a glass because we classify it as a dessert is absurd.

    If anything Italians dessert wines tend to be more Vin Santos and Recioto Soave type wines.

    Moscato also isnt expensive at all so the cost issue ends up looking really chintzy.

    Now I go to Mooore bros and get my wine, downtown for my cheese and have a good time.

    This in no way affects my interest in Osteria, I fully intend to return several times, I dont even think the restaurant has solidified it's footing yet and most of the food is spectacular.

    Your 10 Favorite Cookbooks

    in Cookbooks & References

    Posted · Edited by KatieLoeb (log)

    The other nine, pray tell?

    Counsellor....

    Looking foward to eating with you in NY this summer.

    Back to the books.....

    I picked that book because it was probably the best ever in explaining that concept of how authentic Southeast asian flavors are composed....

    I am sure everyone has thier faves but the criteria for me is the contribution or inspiration to the interest in cooking and substantive content. There are so many books out there but there are few that are done really well.

    It would be really hard to sublimate down to 10 definitive books but there are a few books that capture your attention every now and then.

    With that said...in no particular order of importance.

    1. White Heat Marco Pierre White.

    The book that got so many serious cooks interested in food in the first place.

    http://www.vonl.com/chips/whiteht.htm

    2. Recipes from Le Manoir Aux Quat' Saisons. Raymond Blanc.

    out of print.

    3.Jean Louis, Cooking with the Seasons. Jean Louis Palladin.

    http://www.amazon.ca/Jean-Louis-Cooking-Se...n/dp/0934738491

    One of the greates chefs in America of all time.

    The food in this book still stands up to today's culinary shenanigans depite the fact it was published in 1989.

    Sadly his death was largely ignored in the news because in happened in very close time proximity to the 9-11 attacks in 2001.

    4.Kaiseki Yoshihiro Murata

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/477...ractiveda495-20

    5.La Base and La Produit Filip Verheyden

    http://www.amazon.fr/base-Filip-Verheyden/dp/9077695028

    Unfortunately in french, unless you speak french, works for me.

    Beautifully done.

    6.La Livre de Michel Bras. Michel Bras.

    Out of print but choc full of soooo much information and inspiration.

    It makes you just want to go out and start planting a garden.

    7.El Bulli 2003 2004 Ferran Adria

    http://www.amazon.com/El-Bulli-2003-2004-F...76587868&sr=8-1

    Just Amazing.

    Redefines Cookbook Composition.

    8.Le Grand Livre de Cuisine Alain Ducasse.

    http://www.amazon.com/Grand-Livre-cuisine-...76587949&sr=1-1

    Tooooooooooons of inspiration and a window into the master.

    9.Professional Charcuterie Marcel Cottenceau, Jean-Francois Deport, Jean- Pierre Odeau

    http://www.chipsbooks.com/prochar.htm

    Best book ever on Charcuterie, Salumi, Sausage, Pate, Foie Gras fabrication.

    If you were to allow one more I would say the French Laundry Cookbook.

    These are obviously highly specialized books but I would add that anyone who aspires to cook anything at some point should buy books by..

    Paula Wolfert especially the cooking of Southwest France.

    Marcela Hazan

    Alice Waters

    The Best Recipe by Cooks Illustrated.

    Menu Atrocities

    in Restaurant Life

    Posted · Edited by Vadouvan (log)

    I don't know-- this doesn't seem to me to be pretentious, just getting really particular about stating that something wasn't actually made in someone's home.

    Jan.

    When a restaurant say's "housemade" it sorta seems silly to qualify that they actually cooked.....

    :smile:

    Menu Atrocities

    in Restaurant Life

    Posted

    maybe we can blame jacques pepin for that one. in complete techniques that's exactly what he does.

    i've always wondered about that.

    Sir Big

    I am no expert in sauce making but i vaguely remember from my amateur chef classes at LCB that whole process of Veal Stock + Espagnole reduce by half = Demiglace.

    Was that Escoffier's original process or was it Careme ?

    Any CIA grads wanna share ?

    I made it once 10 years ago and it was a pain in the ace but dude..that heavy bordelaise was outstanding.

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