Vadouvan
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There's a million examples of bad wording but "tomato confit" is not one of them. The verb "confire" in French means to preserve food from decay.
Franky...
Chefs make what are in essence "oven roasted tomatoes" either peeled or with the skin on, basically lay them flat on a roasting pan and roast slowly with thyme or garlic and olive oil.
The word "CONFIT" should not apply to that process.
If you subsequently pack the said tomatoes into a mason jar, fill it with olive oil and put it in a pressure canner, an argument can be made that it becomes a "confiture" since it will completely fall apart. (Tomato Jam).
BUT simple oven roasted tomatoes are *not* "tomato Confit"
Roasting them in the oven which 99% of restaurants do are not "confit"
They are perfectly delicious oven roasted tomatoes.
To add:
The word "Demiglace" also should never appear on a restaurants menu under any circumstances to describe a sauce, nothing shows cluelessness from the kitchen better than that.
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Neither has OJ.
That would be funny if it wasnt childish.
Fact it's until there is concrete proof, the presumption of innocence is how things work in America.
The only thing funny in this whole sad story is that New York actually has crimes or should I say (alledged) crime labelled as "Petit Larceny".
Is that true or does gawker and eater mean "Petty Larceny".....
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The menu listed "diver fresh" shrimp, mussels and clams on its menu. Mildly amusing if in error, perhaps an error of ignorance, but just as likely intentionally misleading.
What examples of silly, obtuse, inflated, misleading or just plain wrong menu descriptions have you chortled or chuckled (but hopefully not choked) over lately?
Very intersting topic Bob.
Besides menu language, there are also lots of technical misuse of terminology and creative license.
As food and cooking technique has evolved over the years, things have become murky.
Diver Scallops.
At some point, people indeed dived or dove for scallops.
In fact I remember the famous line from Marco Pierre White's book "White Heat"
Redundancies
Redundancies have always been used to try to explain to culinary neophytes depending on how egregious the redundancy.
"Penne Pasta"
"Shiitake Mushroom"
"Ahi Tuna"
"Basil Pesto"
Ebellishment.
Embellisment is generally characterized into 3 categories.
Simple embellishment , compound embellishment and disingenous BS.
Simple embellishers name every farm that grows the produce.
Example: Satur Farms Beets, white miso vinaigrette.
Most likely locale : New york city.
Compound embellishers add the people who raise the animals to the people who grow the produce to the degree that menu items start to be as long as Alexis de Tocquevile books.
Example: Snake River Farms flatiron steak with Anson Mills Polenta and creamed sonoma spinach.
Most Likely locale: You guessed it ....california between LA and sanfran.
Disingenous BS.
This is when the grower either unilaterally or in cahoots with a restaurant decides to add a superflous qualifier to produce that has already suffered from simple embellishment.
Example: Blue moon acres "Mezza" arugula.
Oh pardon me there is a huge difference between micro arugula and fully grown arugula but "Mezza" greens ???
What's next "Alto" tomatoes is early spring ?
Most likely locale : Somewhere in the AOL time warner center.
Next Topic :
Useless and gratuitous use of parentheses that allows you to charge more either by suggesting some special element or changing the language of basic foods from english to french.
Examples: and these are actual PerSe menu items from a recent deeeelicious dinner
Mascarpone enriched anson mills white polenta
Black winter truffles, "Parmigiano Reggiano"
and "just de Poule"
$30 supplement......over the 250 quid you are already paying.
As far as we know the "Parmigiano" was just "Parmigiano"
Basically a $30 bowl of polenta.
In all fairness they were quite generous with the truffles.
jus de poule was just brown chicken jus...
Was it tasty......absolutely............but still a touch shady.
Also noted on the same menu, all the following were parenthesized and they all turned out to be exactly what they were.
To clarify, I mean overuse of quotation marks for things that are exactly what they are, seriously what is the freaking point ?
lobster "Mitts" is a cheap ass lame way to sell leftover lobster claws.
"Coulis"
"Kampachi"
"Foie Gras"
"jus"
"Genoise"
"Ganache".
Most Likely locale : Perse, French laundry.
NEXT !!!
Creative misuse....
Tomato Confit
Cilantro Pesto
Squash Bisque
THEN....
Textural or viscosity failures
Broth
Jus
Nage
Coulis
TO ADD......
Simple bad spellling that means something else
"Loup de Mer" in a fennel Fume
as opposed to
"Loup de Mer" in a fennel "FUMET".......gee whiz....It's broth not smoke......damnit.
more later when I get bored....
toodle-ooo
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Check your PMs.
Thanks..
Seems eating cheesesteaks anywhere outside Philly is just a bad idea.......though TonLukes in NY wasnt bad.
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I wasnt aware that birth announcements were allowed on e-gullet ?
.......and shouldnt this be on the california board ?
Your thoughts Katie ?
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Do you know when and where?
By summers end, lower manhanttan.
La Colombe will be an interesting play in NY; I imagine they'll put some serious cash into creating a presence! Now if we can just get Capogiro to branch out here...They certainly do have the money but the thing is they are all about the coffee and just a few pastries and teas. No Chai lattes, flavored coffees, internet access.
Personally I like thier simple rusticity and they have excellent Baristas.
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See. You all are getting my not-so-secrets down pat.
edited to add:
If the drink didn't need a sweet component that the simple syrup would provide, a thyme infusion directly into the spirit would work too...
Absolutely katie, I am getting some fabulous drinks with either low oncentrations of steam extracted essential oils used to make simple syrup or simply spray a whiff of flavored Hydrosol into the glass before the drink is poured in or on the sorface of the drink
The hydrosol is basically a mistable suspension of the esential oil and water.
fantastic drinks.
W should get together sometime...
Lemon verbena hydrosol as does orange blossom make fantastic drings
The Thyome Oil is oustanding but needs minute concentrations.
Good night.
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mexican chorizo is different from spanish -- usually hotter, flavored with chili and garlic, not cured. you could try picking some up from one of the mexican markets down in the italian market area, and cooking it to get a sense of how it 'should' taste. it might bring a taco meat association to your mind no matter how it's cooked. i mean, that might not have been the fault of the place.
Ummm....
Not to go toooo off topic...
But to respond to Biggie's and Rae'e Chorizorama
A few years ago I used to wonder why I was addicted to spanish chorizo yet despised mexican chorizo until i figured out the obvious answer was the one ingredient they do not have in common.
D.O.P. quality Pimenton de la Vera.
Smoked Paprika rocks and the absence of it in mexican chorizo makes it taste like bad merguez.
As Biggie say's this is an almost universal reaction regardless of restaurant but Spanish Chorizo is far better.
If you can get your hands on the stuff from Fermin, that is the shizzy but D'espana is excellent and Palacios is OK.
I mostly use D'espana since you can buy it in person in Nolita while tasting 9 other sausages for free.
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here are better ways to do that. Perhaps had they hired me as their bar manager, this wouldn't have been an issue.
Funny you should say that.....
I believe the *exact* quote during this dinner was....
"Katie Loeb or the Pegu guys would make a thyme simple syrup".
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Note also that Ninth Street Espresso has a new branch on 13th Street between Third and Fourth Avenues. Much more convenient than the other branch to the subway, many people's offices, shopping, and... well, everything except my apartment, AFAIK.
I'd say Grumpy and 9th St lead the pack in Manhattan; although I'm actually not all that fond of Counter Culture's roast, the baristas at 9th St kick serious butt in terms of technique. I've actually never had anything less than excellent texture on my milk (although I've heard the baristas grumping about the Synesso wand as well) and the coffee is just great.
IML: I'm afraid I can't say I was all that impressed with Zibetto. (Also, of course, one *can* "get this sort of coffee north of 13th Street" now that Grumpy opened its Manhattan branch.
)Mayur great to see you again.
9th St coffee is excellent.
It will be interesting to see how well La Colombe is recieved by new yorkers when it opens.
Though they have supplied most of the best known chefs in Manhattan, they arent well known to the public, but technique-wise, the current cafes are similar in style to 9th street.
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Instead, we went to Ansill, Osteria, Matyson, Rangoon, Sang Kee and Mama's Pizzeria in Bala Cynwyd (we've been going there for cheese steaks since the 1970s)
and what did we like ?
Will you be posting on other threads ?
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I think it's a typo. Canella means "cinnamon" (which I suppose could be a pasta name, though it seems strange). I don't think that canela (with one L) is an Italian word at all.
Canela with one L has been used by the Portugese for Cinnamon.
Ii'll check with my alumnii associiation to see iif the plural of Lexus is Lexii. Iit's been a long tiime siince Ii took Latiin...perhaps the Japanese marketiing folks who abuse iit today have changed the rules.Good one Charlie.....wonder what they say at the car dealerships but perhaps car salesmen arent the best people to ask about the finer points of the English language.
The best book written on the subject is this....
http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-Fourt...k/dp/020530902X
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I think it's just a typo, intending to be "candele", but is there such a thing as "canela" pasta? There are so many names for the various shapes and formulations that I can't keep up, so there might be... I'm just curious!
You are correct Sir Phil.
There is no such thing as "Canela Pasta".
It is a typo.
Canela means Cinnamon
Candele means Candles hence the fact that the tubes of Pasta are freaking huge.
Of course one could make "Cinnamon Pasta" which does beg the question of what application one could have for it, but I would imagine it would ultimately work in a variation of some traditional dish like the filling of a B'steeya tossed with cinnamon scented pasta and apples.
Hey Chocolate works with duck ragu at James as well as cocoa with boar ragu at Vetri.
However there is no actual pasta shape called "Canela"
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Sir Phil...
Word from the Snackbarons is mussels are coming this spring, that should be an interesting twist to see what creative riff J-mac comes up with......
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Yeah. When I hear "fudgy aftermath" I think the morning after eating Szechuan...
That sounds like a nomination to the GI list to me.....
The interior of James is really exceptionally well done.
Hopefully this gives them the push they need after the opening glitches.
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i have been to Cafe de Laos and liked it very much. details are vague as once was a long time ago and the recent visit was takeout (and so less memorable by default). i will have to go again soon and have a proper dinner so i can report.
my problem reviewing Thai food for authenticity is that i'm not sure how to qualify. if there's a gold standard i can go to first point me in the right direction! from the thread so far it looks like i'll be starting at Erawan. convenient that my lady lives two blocks away.
Matt, without resorting to pointless authenticity threads, here is the skinny on Thai food.....
The food of Thailand is probably the cuisine that is most dependent on essential oils to support it's flavor, without getting too technical, the most important flavor components have a huge difference in impact between fresh and dried.
Also between fresh and canned.
Lemongrass
Galanga and not ginger
Kaffir lime leaves
cilantro roots not the plants.
coconut milk
lime juice
fish sauce
chilies
dried shrimp paste.
Problems are yes fresh coconut milk is very impractical to make but a good canned one thinned with boiling water makes a great sub.
Boiling water because the heat releases coconut oil.
Dried kaffir lime leaves are useless, it would be like making pesto with dried basil.
Fish sauce and Shrimp paste smell outright nasty but they add the Umami that makes thai food unbelieveable, restaurants therefore use them shy.
Some purists (thai and italian) also believe that pesto and Thai curry paste in this case tastes 10 times better if made with a mortar and pestle....again a bit impractical.
Add the issue of heat tolerance chili-wise and the fact that a lot of thai places use brown sugar and not palm sugar, it gets far too complex to do "authentic" unless you make the damn food yourself at home.
Like I said erawan is good,it si pretty hard to get good pad thai in philly though.
Go out and have some fun.
even if it's bad you learn something.
You know what they say, an ocassional corked wine is part of educating your palette.
For more on the subject, this book is one of my top 10 cookbooks.....
http://www.amazon.com/Hot-Sour-Salty-Sweet...75663228&sr=1-2
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Erawan has pretty authentic Tom Gai kha.
Most of the food is decent too.
Mai-Thai is a bit westernized.
The first one in philly was Siam Cuisine in Chinatown.
Lemongrass on lancaster avenue was excellent in it's first two years but went slightly downhill after the owner Bo opened a second place on the mainline.
It may still be good.......
Erawan is probably the most authentic.....
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Pastry chefs often run their own departments in a restaurant. However, even in the most egalitarian work environment, the executive chef is their boss...period. I don't really care what the relationship is and what the pay scale is, they will always have to answer to some extent to the executive chef about what is on the menu. Whether they do it formally: "What do you think of this new dessert, Chef?" or whether it is informal "Hey pastry chef, I think you should try something with (insert ingredient) on your new dessert menu."
Your post was excellent Alanamoana....
No disagreements but I just have to note that.....
The chef cannot unilaterally fire the pastry chef in any of Stephen Starr's restaurants.
They do not have the authority to do so.
They are compartmentalized departments.
I worked for them for a little over a year.
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"I'm glad to see lfabio on egullet, if for no other reason than to provide a knowledgeable counterpoint to the Grand Pontificator. "
can we just let the personal stuff go? please?
if you are referring to who i think you are, he's known personally to many of us, and he's got serious cred.
egullet is just better when the personal stuff is kept out of serious discussions.
Indeed Bill indeed.
Besides "pontification" is far more honest that cryptic shilling for those with whom we are associated and claim to be wine knowledgeable when we are raving about 2001 Pichon Lalande....
I like Fabio and we rib each other all the time.
Its all in good fun.
Like phil said ...spirited discussions.
M is going to get much better after the kitchen expands, just spoke to the chef a few days ago and it's a case of the facilities catching up with the talent.
Katz is is probably the best cook I have ever worked with easily.....
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I think this is a fascinating topic, but I suspect it's getting a bit off-track because some of the statements on all sides are being taken a bit too literally.
I'm quite sure vadouvan doesn't believe that there will be NO pastry chefs in ANY restaurants (outside of his original exemptions.) I think it's called hyperbole (learned no doubt at the foot of Doug Pirhanna, he knew all the tricks...)(oops, name-dropping!) and as we've seen here, it's a very effective rhetorical technique.
All I can say is I've had some rocking desserts lately that have all been coming from what would have previously been considered the hot kitchen....
I am out Phil.
It's like yelling in a playground during recess.
This is why the post adolescent attitude of I know more than you do even though I have no idea who you are ruins the forum.
Invariably the same community that makes money off of people they consider the "bridge and tunnel crowd" seems to suffer from tunnel vision.
Peace-out.
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Ah. No, I think. Because if I'm talking about my own business, I'm going to feel constraints that I don't think are appropriate on this site. It's bad enough that a couple of people I like know PD=Capaneus, and it just feels crappy to badmouth their places - with the net result that I've mostly shut myself out of the conversation about their restaurants. If we are going to have to display actual empathy for every restaurateur in town, well, the result is going to be what Those Other People in Leffland said it would be.
I think it's fine to ask people who just say "It sux!!!" to back up their opinion. But as long as they're people who can back up their opinion, sometimes "It sux!" pretty much says it all.
Pedro you make an excellent point, the point isnt to trash a restaurant which was why my initial response was short. I wouldnt actually pay people not to eat there, it was a measure of how strongly I felt about the service and mediocrity.
Fact is e-gullet isnt craigslist or foobooz and the people in this forum who mostly know each other in person should offer succinctly accurate opinions. Frankly anything said about rouge isnt going to slow it down even for a hiccup but sometimes it's ok to say it simply is NOT good.
Being forced to expand on that in full detail does way more harm that a short comment which may seem like a snaek attack.
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And, I happily stand by my assertion that you are a name dropper. Just look back at your posts in case you forgot.
Wow it's getting hotter in the sahara.
Thankfully e-gullet is a built in court stenographer.....
Now looking back upthread.
I asked your Your buddy... TB86
Outside of the obvious high profile, actually talented specific few who ALL reside or work in NYC like Mason, Stupak,Rouxel,Iuzzini et al, your statement is not true.Would you give me an example of ONE restaurant in America that the primary draw is the pastry chef besides the implosion of Varietal ?
To which the senor replied...
hmmm lets see, sherry yard at spago, michelle meyers at boule and sona, elizabeth falkner at citizen cake, franscois payard at payard, jaques torres at his own place, jeez lets see richard leach at park ave, goldfarb at r4d, mindy segal at hot chocolate, dude you want me to keep going,,,,, and if you would calm down a bit and re read what i wrote,,, did i say primary draw, i think not,,,my friend i did say a major draw lets go on some more, remy funfrock w ritz now, richard ruskell,, at montage,, hsu en min,,, wonyee tom,,, michele richard,,, forget he is a pastry chef???all those guys are high profile, you can only think of that small group, kinda sad, dont seem to be to well educated in the buisness,
how about pierre herme, ever heard of that guy?
must be some one else that everyone goes to see
Then I gave a point by point reply.....
Pierre Herme does not have a restaurant, he has a pattiserie.Francois Payard whom I have cooked with on 2 occasions and is very talented isnt a great example.
Payard on Lex is a very good pastry shop but besides the desserts, there was a strong component of people going there for Phillippe Bertineau's bistro cooking which was fabulous at the time.
Jaques Torres has a chocolate factory and yes when he was at Boulud's, people werent saying lets go to Daniel and spend goobs of cash so we can eat Torres's deserts.
As to the rest of the people, yes i am aware of who hey are but the average member of the general public couldnt give two craps who they are, People go to restaurants to eat.
The Sona team is well known amnd are praised more because they have a story as opposed to the fact that they are catually doing anything nationally rave worthy.
Will goldfarb is like charlie parker, Keats and a pastry chef rolled into one and operating on a much higher plane of intelligence that the average person.
What seperates intelligent "pastry" chefs, Kitchens and leaders from the usual restaurant acrimony and jockeying for position is the will to work together and find your place while supporting the goals of the team.
Many of those in the food world have complete tunnel vision because they have xero exposure to other creative or liberal arts. In order for you to understand my points, I suggest you sir go out and buy the miles davis album "Kind of Blue" and listen to the collaboration betweem Miles, Coltrane, Cannnball Adderly,Jimmy Cobb and Paul Chambers.
It is singularly the best illustration of how 5 people can synergistically achieve higher goals.
Isnt that what a kitchen is about rather than walking around with bullshit titles on your jackets ?
Edited to add: next time you are in Paris, Herme is excellent but he isnt the cats ass, go check out Laduree, that place easily makes anything in NY look like pastry made in a federal prison's vocational kitchen
Upon which to further explain the relationship between food and desserts in a restaurant by saying.....
Gilt under Paul Liebrandt was fabulous, I was lucky enough to have two great meals there.All the desserts were terrible both times.
This is why it is in the interest of chefs to care about dessert programs.
CRU on the other hand, the food was boring, Goldfarbs desserts were fun for me but conceptually outside the scope of understanding of Frank Bruni.
Will eventually found his footing at R4D and both he and Bobbbeee make good stuff
It goes both ways.
Per Se, the food was mostly good, the egregious supplement prices were absurd, the desserts ranged from prose-enhaced 2.5 on the richter scale to little silly post dinner creme brulees.
JGV columbus circle had good food and iuzinni's deserts were great.
WD50 had a dinner that was a culinary interpretation of listening to Miles davis Bitches Brew.
You either liked it or you didnt get it.
Masons dessert on the other hand was like listening Arvo part's music, you approach with dubious suspicion but you leave with a smile
Chikalicious was interesting.
Cant wait to taste P-ong.
Buddakan meatpacking is just plain absurd dessert wise.
So by basically using supporting examples of names or restaurants and the respective chefs, (something you see on 75% of restaurant related e-gullet threads)....that makes me a name dropper.
Name dropping is ususally attched to the lemmings who ask for Mcnally at Morandi and Balthazar when they dont have reservations.
if you consider Using names of chefs on e-gullet in complex detailed conversations in which the name of the chef is completely relevant...........to be Name dropping, then you should be posting on Regina Scramblings Gasrtopoda.com
http://gastropoda.com/index.html
Analogy wise, ultimately you should be standing on wet sand right now.
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An elephant? You think too much of yourself. Nobody will answer since the question has no general relevance to the topic.
Please, in your next post, drop some names for us. We are very impressed with you.
Posts like these are why I emphasise a familiarity with humanities and perhaps liberal arts before going to cooking school so people can understand basic grammar analogies.
When someone says "the elephant on the coffee table", it refer's to an obvious high profile situation relevant to the conversation at hand.
In this case as DOCSCONZ finally answered above, all these people whining about how restaurants cannot survive without pastry chefs dont realise that Achatz at Alinea seems to be doing exactly that and still manages to be among the top 3 well regarded restaurants in the country.
The "elephant" refers to a large figure you cannot ignore based on it's proximity (this conversation)
The elephant is larger than life in the context of the analogy (in this case Achatz's visisbilty in the world of American Chefs)
Grant Achatz is "the elephant on the coffee table"
For further clarification, it would be like having a presidential debate next week without Hillary Clinton or John McCain present"
A political observer would say "how could you ignore "the elephants on the coffee table".
Kabish ?
The analogy does not refer to the person who makes the analogy (me).
All you respond with is calling me a name dropper simply because it illustrates that the points you are making are invalid. I am not even angry or take it personally, it just shows the iceblock of logic you are standing on top of in the middle of the sahara is crumbling.
Maybe that's an easier analogy...
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Gilt under Paul Liebrandt was fabulous, I was lucky enough to have two great meals there.
All the desserts were terrible both times.
This is why it is in the interest of chefs to care about dessert programs.
CRU on the other hand, the food was boring, Goldfarbs desserts were fun for me but conceptually outside the scope of understanding of Frank Bruni.
Will eventually found his footing at R4D and both he and Bobbbeee make good stuff
It goes both ways.
Per Se, the food was mostly good, the egregious supplement prices were absurd, the desserts ranged from prose-enhaced 2.5 on the richter scale to little silly post dinner creme brulees.
JGV columbus circle had good food and iuzinni's deserts were great.
WD50 had a dinner that was a culinary interpretation of listening to Miles davis Bitches Brew.
You either liked it or you didnt get it.
Masons dessert on the other hand was like listening Arvo part's music, you approach with dubious suspicion but you leave with a smile
Chikalicious was interesting.
Cant wait to taste P-ong.
Buddakan meatpacking is just plain absurd dessert wise.
Menu Atrocities
in Restaurant Life
Posted · Edited by Vadouvan (log)
Tony.
Demiglace is mother sauce.
What it isnt is a sauce, more succinctly it is a sauce base from which actual sauces are made.
Simply adding chives or mushrooms to demiglace is pointless.
Demiglace isnt any liquid reduced by 50%
Water reduced by 50% is water
Chicken stock reduced by 50% is concentrated stock.
and so forth.......
Though I dont use demiglace almost ever, it does have its place in classic sauce making ......however most restaurants simply label "reduced veal stock" as "demiglace"
Here Tony is where the confusion begins.
What escoffier calls demiglace is very different from "veal stock reduction".
The process of making demi is quite long and everyone says it results in heavier sauces.
It also isnt cost effective but in effect 99% or restaurants that say "Demiglace" on the menu just used reduced infused stocks and that is *IF* they actually made any stock.
I have personally never used D'artagnans or Demiglace gold wich people seem to swear by ....but I cannot imagine shelf stable demiglace being a good thing.
How about menus that mix the french and english......Demiglaze.
Incidentally in the early Trotter books, there is frequent use of "veal stock reduction"