ulterior epicure

oops - thanks for catching my missive upthread - i meant to type yamauchi. i've changed it. u.e.

I'm not afraid of the restaurants being too gimicky. I respect Chef Achatz too much to worry about that. I have to imagine that it is hard enough to sustain his continuous level of creativity in one restaurant. Ferran Adria takes half the year off to work on his dishes at his Atelier. Grant Achatz is taking two weeks off and has already spent a considerable amount of that here with us! good point. and yes, he has been very generous with this time... but i suspect, in a way, this thread has also been a beneficial exercise for him in the way of "researching" - no? I guess this is what I meant by "gimmicky" - courses/food/presentations, while immensely novel on their own becomes undervalued due to over-production. Agreed - and here, I think Achatz may be able to reproduce - but in a different venue - which is why I didn't assume that Restaurant X (wouldn't it be a hoot if it ended up actually being named that? ) would also be in Chicago. Indeed, out of the very concept, I would think that it almost couldn't. Hmmm. I'm not sure I'd necessarily have the same loyalty - but we would have to see. Yes, this is what I meant by tailoring (essentially) the same food/approach to different clientele, with perhaps different food sources. Although I've been to neither, already, Per Se, in my mind, is just the New York "bureau" of TFL. But then, these chefs also run into the trouble of "spreading themselves too thin," in my opinion. Personally, I haven't found all of J-G-V's restaurants/concepts to jive as well as his original eponymous (in my eyes, a castle in the sky) restaurant. Me too! Double ! U.E.

[edited to remove the upstream quotes] I didn't (assume Restaurant X would be in Chicago). After all, as Grant points out, (namely harkening to Keller's bi-coastal approach), a change of venue has its appeal... it brings both a change of clientele, traditions and food resources. I can imagine for a chef, and travel-diners (like me, docsconz, and others), this (and perhaps, mainly the last one - different food resources) is an exciting and promising idea. I do agree with Grant on the tasting menu vs. tapas/a la carte format choice. I visit restaurants, like Alinea, Moto, Can Fabes, L'Arnsbourg, Sushi Yasuda,et al namely to experience the sort of hand-to-mouth experience that one gets directly (as in the case of Yasuda) from the chef. Even I, a person who enjoys the variety and "spices" of life - am often tempted to stick with what I like (as yellow truffle put it upstream, order 5 toro nigiri). Chefs and tasting menus help me, the diner, moderate my diet - and help me not to dote on a "safe bet," but move on to experience new worlds in tastes, textures, smells, etc... even though I didn't like everything on the menu at Alinea, I'm glad I experienced them - next time, when I'm confronted with bee balm, or an oxalis leaf, I'll be in more familiar territory and know better how to approach them. As well, my palate has become more flexible and willing to "move on" as a diner the next time - unaided by an auteur chef. That being said, doc makes some very good points as well (and as always ). I, too, would fear "confusing" Restaurant X with Alinea. Now, not having eaten at any Keller or Ducasse establishments yet (that is all about to change very soon ), I can't compare. However, from what I have read, heard, and know, I suspect doc might have a good point about the differences that those two chefs have as opposed to Grant's. One that fears and dreads "chain" restaurants, I always get wary that great chefs "spread themselves too thing" as doc notes, and the result is gimmicky food - even if it really isn't, it certainly appears and "smells" that way. However, I would disagree with doc that genius can be spread "too" thin... I think if a chef/artist/whomever is creative and confident enough, they'll weather even the harshest critics. Good is good - whether you like it or not - I suspect many will be able to recognize quality when they see/taste/feel/experience it. Uterior Epicure.

Having never been to that part of the world I can’t really answer that question with confidence. But from what diners from Tokyo and Hong Kong have said, the cuisine of Alinea has several aesthetic and philosophical similarities of the food in these countries. Or at least similarities in social and gastronomic traditions. Certainly we embrace the sweet savory balance much like some the regions in China, and one can find several similarities to the experience that is offered in the Japanese Kaiseki meals. It seems like the presentations would be respected in this part of the world…at least from the innovative stance. At the same time aren’t there several traditional French restaurants in that part of the world that are held in high regard? Do they alter their style to cater to the palates of the people…or is that what the people of the region are drawn to…something different than what they have at their immediate disposal? ← chefg. i don't know that you'll check this post again to see this... i would agree with your statements. i have been to that part of the world and know the cuisine and "diner's psychology" there and would agree with you. from my visit to alinea - many elements are in harmony with the asian approach to food. not only in a lot of the taste elements you noted - but in the presentation and small-course/more bite-size portions. in fact, i distinctly remember that during a few of your courses - i instinctually wanted to reach for a a pair of chopsticks to use as a utensil. many of your courses were presented with the server's instructions for the diner to use their hands in eating. i found this satisfying in two ways: 1. it's sensual and natural to use ones hands. as well, it's "playful" in our western culture... unless we're eating pizza or fried chicken, mommy taught us to never use our hands... and, 2. it allowed me to texturally "feel-out" the food before eating. while certainly the japanese and south asian cultures employ hands to eat, the chinese hardly ever do... and why? the food is always prepared in portions perfectly movable with chopsticks. i would say the same of many of alinea's food: milkweed pods, hearts of palm, tempura lamb tenderloin (chopsticks would have been very useful - especially to extract the nugget from within the confines of its wirey prison), zucchini cake, and yes, even my arch-nemesis, the dreaded tobacco cream ! that beingn said, there were some elements of alinea's presentation that would not work well with the eastern style of eating... like your "deconstructionist" dishes - like the "a1 beef" that demand the mixing up of flavors. not only would chopsticks be infeasible (especially on broad flatware - asians prefer to "mix" their food by "slurping" it out of a bowl, with the help of their chopsticks as a shovel), but the chopsticks would be dead on such a big plate... i suppose one option would be to serve such dishes (like litchi halves, carrot raviolo with lobster "cheeto", and squab breast - all which appeared consecutively on my menu) in chinese soup bowls - that could be hand held and eaten with either a broad-tongued chinese soup spoon, or in combo with chopsticks... well, sorry my little "asian spew" of suggestions has droned on. i don't know why i'm telling you all this stuff - clearly your command of food and creativity far exceed mine... just got so fascinated with this "project" of yours!! cheers. ulterior epicure. p.s. look forward to shanghai, perhaps...

elfin, looking back at my first posting, i suppose i was a tad harsh. i did not mean in any way to disparage your (or your business companion's) choice. i suppose i even hardly answered your question - which alex and tammy have to a larger degree. assuming that the restuarant is non-negotiable, i would, as i had done originally, urge you to stick to the fish options. i can't speack for "charley's chowder" - but i will say that martha's vineyard salad (with the dressing on the side) is a safe bet. i know i'm going to get a storm of protests, gasps and dissapproval for this one - but i've never understood the appeal of zingerman's (for their food)... i mean, i love them for being a very creative "cottage industry" that is highly successful, both in marketing and upping the sophistication of the mid-west palate. but, i find most of their products just a bit over-priced... that's not to say that they do source some pretty rare and awesome products sometimes. when i do visit the deli, i usually stick to picking up a few novelty items that i can't find elsewhere. i've been there a couple dozen times over the past few years - they are consistent and their service is always top-notch, but their food is... well, just good, but way pricey... regardless, elfin, assuming you're not from the area and you're on a business trip - alex is right - zingerman's deli is definitely a must-see, if you have time. please let us know how everything works out! cheers. ulterior epicure

yes, i'll admit it's been a while since i've been to cafe zola - but recently enough to know of the more upmarket evening setting. however, i just never really fell in love with cafe zola as many of the locals have. i don't find their food all that "mediterannean" (i think the cafe's owners are turkish - at least try to go for that effect), or all that compelling... as for brunch - wow is it crowded, noisy, and service is friendly but VERY inattentive. however, the best value, in my opinion, at the cafe is the turkish breakfast - which for about $10, two could walk out very full and satisfied. their crepes, i find dismally overpriced and mediocre. ulterior epicure.

yes, as tammy notes - the main street ventures are rather uninspired and VERY overpriced - but on a whole, i'd say much better than gandy dancer. cafe zola had come to mind, but i had reserved recommending it partly because i've had bad experiences - and, think they are truly undervalued for the price... it's also a much more casual spot - and may not be suitable for a business meal. also, it gets crowded, and often very noisy (which is also a turn-off at the common grill). ulterior epicure.

elfin. if you have any say in the matter, and if it is a business expense, i would highly advise you skip the gandy and go, go, GO to eve the restaurant in kerrytown. albeit a year old, you can read my review of the place on my blog. true, i haven't been in about 8 months, but (reliable) reports have been just as good. other better bets than the gandy include (over-priced but decent) gratzi, an upmarket italian restaurant that is a member of a local restaurant group. its sister restaurant, (even more outrageously over-priced, but pretty good) chop house, next door is your run-of-the mill upscale steakhouse, serving up cuts of meat the size of your first child. at either of these restaurants, you have the additional pleasure of (spending more money and) walking next door (connected inside to both restaurants) to their "dessert restaurant"la dolce vita, which has decent (again, overpriced) desserts. any of these are better options than the gandy dancer... which i find frumpy, and is disdainfully "chainish" (it's part of the muer restaurant group). otherwise, if you're not stuck to the ann arbor confines - i would suggest you look into the common grill in nearby chelsea (about fifteen minutes from ann arbor by freeway). chef common's restaurant has a decent american "bistro" fare in a brassy american art-deco cum little town restaurant establishment. it gets loud, and the reservation policy is tricky (make sure you read their policy online), but it'll be a much better experience than the gandy. lastly, if you want to go bust-out-no-holds-back... and you have time to venture about forty minutes from ann arbor, there's tribute, former home to chef takashi yagihashi (who won the james beard for best midwest chef a couple of years ago - and is now at okada restaurant in steve wynn's resort in las vegas). i was there last december right before yagihashi left and it was very good (but not dazzling)... yamauchi (the new chef) has changed the format somewhat - he's from acclaimed carlos' in highwood (northshore of chicago) which bodes well... but i haven't heard anything, so it'd be a gamble... i'd still bet you'd have a much better meal here than at gandy dancer... otherwise, i've heard that jeremy restuarant is very very good. i have not been, but will be visiting soon... well, i guess you get my point: gandy dancer isn't all that great... and if the choice is out of your hands, then i would advise you stick with the fish courses... if you do go, i hope you are more impressed/pleased than i have been. it used to be pretty good, but has slipped lately, in my opinion... hope this helps! ulterior epicure. [edited for spelling and other changes]

... and people wonder why, despite all of my travels to exotic places, i always find myself coming back to the heartland! you all CRACKS ME UP!!

what is dock?

what's wrong with that? i don't know how good of a pasta-maker you are, but i don't consider that pathetic... now, if you were to tell me you subsisted off of chef boyardee with a splash of tabasco (very domestic) and a sprinkling of canned parmesan, then i might take some pity... (katie - this post is for you - just to prove to you even more that i'm "just normal" - though i do tend to eat out very well ). u.e. [edited for multiple grammatical and spelling faux pas]

thanks ellen! a useful and welcomed first post! welcome to egullet! do send the suaerkraut struedel receipt to me!! thanks! u.e.

No, San Francisco, Shanghai, Chicago if you hurry up, i'll meet you in shanghai later this year! if you were to open in shanghai, do you anticipate that you'll have to change your approach/technique/ingredients to tailor to the preferences of eastern palates? or, do you expect that your food, as it is now, is "international" enough to be a success abroad? on the flip side of that question, perhaps it could also be a question of whether you feel foreign palates are receptive to outside cuisines/approaches? u.e.

well - you tell me... i'll take whatever i can get...

thanks for the suggestions, but i was actually wondering if there's anyway i can keep the phyllo for another time - ie. i don't want to use it all at once...

i don't eat cheesecake - and never had at c.f., but i'll bet your absolutely right on this point. i agree whole-heartedly. like george, my experiences at all of the chains he mentions is that they seem to actually make the food on-site... from fresh produce and ingredients (although they may not be organic... at least they're fresh, look fresh, and taste fresh). it's like walking in to a very well known clothing chain: "would you like to add a burnished belt-buckle belt, or a pair of ultra-comfy holiday boxers? how about one of our hand-knit Australian organic wool mittens? they're on sale for just $99.99." no, thanks for pointing out all the gimmicks, but i'm an adult, and i know what i do and do not want. u.e.

i'm sorry if this overlaps with a previous forum, but a cursory search didn't yield any results. rarely do i find a recipe that uses as much phyllo as each package provides. i'm inevitably left with a ton of left-over phyllo. i've been told NEVER to re-freeze it... what do i do with it? i hate throwing the otherwise good phyllo away, but have never bothered to find out my options. would appreciate advice. thanks the ulterior epicure.

Katie, You slipped this under my radar. So now the tables have turned and I'm abnormal because I won't eat at chains? LOL. I guess it's true...the best defense is a good offense. ← she slipped that in under my radar as well ! OF COURSE, i'm "normal" - whatever that means - although, if you do read my posts closely, you'll notice that i haven't eaten at a fast food restaurant in over 4 years or so... really - that's not so normal... actually, katie's right - i do only eat at places like bluestem and 1924 main these days... i haven't stepped foot into a chain store since chipotle - circa 2001. u.e.

don brings up a good point - how do you get a "read" on your diners' experiences? do you find that most (or enough) clients are open and responsive enough during the meals for your staff to pick up on winners/losers among the courses? u.e.

tommy! was that you at moto? (i don't even know who you are! ) well, i'm sure you looked stunning strutting around in those hipsters! while you fashion-forward diners keep restaurants looking as cutting-edge as the food they serve, i, unfortunately, will have to take a backseat and enjoy the ride! u.e.

hi chef achatz. thanks for taking time to answer our questions! here are a few: 1. while i enjoyed my experience at alinea (late july, 2005), i have to say the most memorable part of the meal was a blackberry on a bed of tobacco cream garnished with a bee balm blossom, thai pea shoot and peppercorn salt - which was horrid on my palate. You can see it here (although i doubt you've forgotten). i don't know if it was the tobacco cream or the bee balm blossom, but something effected a bitter-stinging sensation on my tongue. do you know which ingredient it might be that might have provoked such a physiological reaction? i don't smoke, but i've had tobacco infused desserts before, and never had any reaction like the one i had with your creation. with all sincerity, what was the impetus/motivation behind this course? 2. i was actually thinking about this one in the shower - it's so serendipitous that i'm getting a chance to ask you directly! one of my favorite experiences on your menu was the braised pistachios that came with the braised-fried north dakota bison. similarly, i found your braised sunflowers equally divine. what liquid/oil did you braise these seeds/nuts in? at what temperature? for how long? [edited to add]: 3. what has been your favorite creation (based on personal tastes)? why? can you prepare if for me on my next visit? (i hope it's not the tobacco cream! ) thanks! i've got a ton of other questions, but don't want to hog your time. ulterior epicure.

how long does it take to craft one/ninety bowls for a day's service?

great point gmi3804 - the split plate option is a great way to go at these joints. as well, cheesecake does offer "1/2 portions" on their salads at a lower cost. u.e.

...so, i thought i'd throw a twist in this discussion: have any of you ever unknowingly visited a chain and was impressed by the food - enough to have considered it a worthy restaurant for you to re-visit often - only to find out later that the restaurant is one of many, dozens, even hundreds around the globe? if so, i'd be curious to know how your initial reaction/evaluation of the restaurant was/wasn't changed by this post-dining discovery? ulterior epicure

judy. your observations are fair (and accurate - although a little loaded ), but i would have to say, cheesecake factory's prices aren't that outrageous - especially compared to other chains - who will leave you with no leftovers, and often, less satisfaction, consistency and quality - many come to mind - enough that i would choose cheesecake over nearly all of the chains (in its category/level) out there. yikes - that's a scary thought!