Steve Klc

I'll take a crack at an explanation, I'm sure it is nothing personal toward you Helena. Let's see, two very highly respected authorities and eaters really, really like a dish which sounds so simple (but not boring to me). They ask for another helping so it must really be good. It's also not like we Americans are so knowledgeable about tapas anyway--we've eaten them, a few of us may even have been lucky enough to have a few good ones here in the US or travelled to Spain--but by and large we're not very far along the learning curve of what Spanish cooking and tapas have to teach us. That's why you're reading this article in the most polished most professional food magazine. Even pros have some catching up to do. Jose has just begun to spread the word and food writers have just begun to take note of him and of his mission. In my case I'd be afraid to offer you advice for fear it would turn out like a healthy ubiquitous underwhelming gourmet crunchy-granola takout veggie salad--enough cooks have written books on that crap. Combining the simple things--simply--is difficult. It seems this dish could have all the textures--it probably starts with a great cheese, aged and in the mouth goes from soft and melting to squishy to firm to hard crunch; balance and depth between the spicy nuttiness of the cheese with the nut and wheatberry; wheatberry toasted in some rustic fat, cooked in a stock indescribably good, the hazelnuts were probably warmed and roasted to dry them and activate their oils; ooh, contrasting colors--I can just imagine the veggies--carrot, zucchini, leek in my imaginary version--all pretty, all perfect all in small dice--but then I come back to reality and sense this place was rustic and hasn't heard of the term brunoise. The "salad" may have been tossed with the cheese a la minute, packed into one of those cool clay rounds and warmed up at the last minute to partially melt the cheese. The reality for me is...I have no idea what made it so good. But I can imagine.

Remember everyone--we don't just want Herme chocolates available at the Woodbridge store--that's a no brainer and you can get Herme chocolates from the net. No, what we want in Woodbridge is an Herme pastry department--like in Princeton--with Herme's dessert line produced in-house. Otherwise, you'll be stuck solely with the non-Herme American-style bakery crap from Princeton and you might as well shop for your American-style bakery crap at Shop Rite.

I surprised everyone is being so kind, so forgiving, to the writer or editor of this piece--one or both of them screwed up by not specifically mentioning whether Matt was STILL the chef in this new incarnation. I'm sorry, but perceptions, if not careers, hang in the balance when chefs and restaurants are mentioned in the Times' Dining Section. It's important to get it right--explicitly and clearly--and not to tar by association or obfuscation. Matt either is or is not the current chef--to not address this question directly is, well, sloppy and inconsiderate of Matt and the readership. For all we know, this information was included and was cut out for length. I'd like to see the Times print a clarification in next week's section. It seems reasonable to me. Agreed?

Kim--thanks for a fascinating post. I, too, share your Disney-like excitement about walking through the doors of a Wegmans. Now, will someone please call the corporate public relations number for Wegmans and ask if the Woodbridge store will have an Herme pastry kitchen so I can stop worrying? I have to get to work.

But Paul, you do agree that it says something, in terms of respect for an audience or a community, if the Woodbridge Wegmans were to open without an Herme pastry department? Especially with the precedent of one right down the road in Princeton?

Actually, Rebecca, you've just made peeling potatoes or dicing carrots sound downright glamorous. You have real potential, within our little eGullet community and when you begin your career change. Good to have you aboard.

Chop--you live in Woodbridge? I grew up in Woodbridge and my parents still live there. I haven't spent much time in Manalapan or Bridewater, so I'm not entirely sure what the demographic difference is, but there's no doubt there's a stong presence of what used to be called blue-collar and middle-income, and everyone seems to be commuting up and down Routes 1 and 9. Don't forget it is also where the Turnpike and Parkway intersect. But Kim--when you say "Wegman's ...the Disneyland of food stores" would you mind fleshing out what you mean for me? And all I will say is--if the Woodbridge Wegmans does not have an Herme pastry boutique I will be really pissed.

We recently found a nice one at The Container Store--decent size square, 5" high, clear plastic with a snap-on lid and with a flat, white lift-out base with two handles. Would probably serve you very well. I think the brand name of the line of plastic containers is "Decor" from Australia. We use alot of them. There is also a very nice long rectangular container in the same line with a lift out base just perfect for a Buche de Noel or other roulade-like cake. It's called a "Marinator/Storer." I dislike the "customer service" at N Y Cake & Baking as well.

Lesley, most of us are in the US, and as you know running a patisserie is a hard life anywhere, but especially here-- you're pressured to use cheap, commercial ingredients--you know, chocolate that looks like chocolate but tastes like, well, icky brown stuff--you're pressured to do wholesale, it's exhausting if you try to do the work yourself and not hire another trained pastry chef, your customers balk at paying what your product is worth if you use real butter--ooohh, like real butter is optional?--and shop on size and price, not quality, etc. We talk about restaurant work because we can't talk about patisserie work, this isn't France or Italy with a strong patisserie ethos. Wait until all your decent patisseries close, sad to say you'll be talking about restaurant pastry work as well. If and when that happens, let's hope a Wegman's opens in Montreal with an Herme-designed pastry department--at least then you will still have very good pastries. And Chefette, I hope older career-changers like Scot heed these words of yours: "You should assess your personal skill set very seriously and think about it from a business perspective. You are making a change to do something for love, but be smart about it, don't try to compete against people who need to do this, or who have been doing it at a higher level since they were 13 years old. The fact is - it will be very hard to compete in terms of ingrained physical know-how, speed, or precision. Career-changers might consider what some of their innate advantages and experience are that would be discriminators - do you have strong management or business skills? Are you aware of a niche market that you can leverage, do you have PR skills or connections you can leverage? How can you sell yourself independently or to someone else to get the most joy and financial payback from this decision to change your life?" That's an amazing paragraph--I'm still so glad you married me. Naturally, you'll never find professional pastry programs discussing things like this. This thread, in fact, could be their worst nightmare.

What it says is we have to make a better effort at education and raising awareness and being critical of uninspired work, of chefs mailing it in and of chefs not caring as much about dessert as the meal which preceeded it. And we have to do this in such a way that customers and restaurant critics take it seriously. You are like the Pastry Energizer Bunny, Chefette, you just keep going and going and pushing this into more areas. Your last post was wonderful, by the way, synthesizing and capturing my fears exactly. But I think part of the problem is we're seeing so many of the classics disappear--without learning the lessons of the classics, what made them "classic" to begin with--they were good. Lesley mentioned this on another thread, which I took exception to in that context, but it really comes into play here. I wouldn't mind seeing warm chocolate cake with vanilla ice cream, on many menus, if it were drop dead good. Same with creme brulee, those eclairs, those crappy American-style layer cakes--but they have to be good more often than not. What good is retaining the "classics," giving ourselves over to stasis, if the classics we have available underwhelm?

You do realize how daunting that last post is, don't you chefette?

1) Yes, but this is slowly changing; 2A) Sometimes and 2B) most definitely yes; 3A) Yes, to a certain extent, because pastry people with less training and experience are being hired for jobs sooner with decreaasing salaries, staff and budget, but I place blame much more squarely on the shoulders of 3B) chefs and owners who no longer are committed to dessert or operate under the delusion they can do an adequate job themselves; 4) Yes.

Fantastic comments all around so far, I'll try to give you a few other things to think about Scots. Karen and Tim have been in pastry longer than I have, actually, I changed careers at 32 and am now 42. Lesley really KNOWS her stuff and among us the only one to have authored an incredible book on making pastry. Chefette changed careers as well, even more recently. So in a sense you're considering the road we already took and looking back, I still feel your desire and wish I had had the option then to discuss things with an assembled crew like this! I hope you realize how lucky you are--from the tone of your writing and the effort you're putting into it--I can tell you do. I'm wholeheartedly with Lesley on the value of a degree or at least attending a good professional program with a broad general exposure to all things pastry and baking. It does give you a foundation and time to consider all your options--to figure out what it is you actually like and enjoy doing. But Lesley's experiences and exposures have been to schools in France and Canada and come from a era passing us by. The problem at present and in the US is it's not like these ideal degrees or programs exist all over the place, indeed, if they exist at all anymore. Most general schools are underwhelming when it comes to pastry. I've seen, taught and demonstrated at many of the best schools, I'm intimately familiar with the curriculum of 4 of them and I'd have to say that general entry-level cooking education is at a much higher level than general pastry education. And--a serious question you have to ask yourself as an older career-changer--will I ever earn my way out of the financial hole I'm putting myself into by shelling out for tuition? Certainly not by making $8 to $10 an hour. Schools and chefs have cared more about cooking than pastry, often pastry can seem like the forgotten stepchild even at otherwise good cooking schools with top cooking programs--the CIA, embarrassingly, has a chef, Victor A. L. Gielisse, as the dean of their pastry and baking instruction; at FCI, for instance, it is chef-instructors--not the pastry chef instructors--who teach the professional culinary students their crude, antiquated pastry and desserts, deal with them in the restaurant, with much less focus and resulting level of achievement; and as Malawry has indicated in her very revealing diary--she isn't being taught the bulk of her pastry by a pastry chef at L'Academie, but by her chef-instructors. And frankly, most chefs are neither skilled nor inspired enough to care about desserts. But then it is much easier to cook fairly well than it is to do pastry fairly well, so we're stuck in this kind of self-perpetuating cycle of diminished dessert expectation and appreciation. First off, as a career changer you're in a different boat than the kids coming out of high school--you're a creative, smart, older professional--and if I were you I wouldn't even consider the factories since you are already way behind the career arc of others in the field--as Lesley mentioned all these French pastry chefs coming to America have been working since they were 13. (I usually don't recommend the pseudo-college multi-year CIA/Johnson & Wales degree experience anyway, but then that's just me. For youngsters, most of the time I recommend going to a real college anyway, getting the best broad traditional university education you can with some emphasis in business, computers, fine arts, design, culture, but work part time in food somehow all the way through, and try to talk yourself out of becoming a chef or pastry chef the whole way through. That gives kids real career options. After college there is plenty of opportunity for you to throw it all away for food.) But that costs money--and for some younger kids just out of high school without those resources or those options cooking can also be seen as more vocational or like a trade school--but you're not in that category either. You don't want or need an associates degree. You are, in fact, the typical smart, hopeful, eager student these schools with 6 month short term, full time intensive professional pastry programs hope to attract or lure into their programs--suckers with a not-fully-realized goal and just enough money to dream. (I was one of those suckers, went to L'Academie in '92, and things have worked out ok for me so far; chefette also went off to pastry school, FCI, in her mid-30's.) FCI (and to a lesser extent L'Academie) are the models for you to consider and in my opinion FCI has the best overall program--better than L'Academie's part-time program and all the other comparable NYC programs. They set the standard which all the other schools and programs must be considered against. Beautiful facilities, fulltime, in and out in 6 months, a restaurant-oriented, classic French but modern-leaning curriculum developed by an elite French pastry chef (Jacques Torres--at 28 he was the best pastry chef in the world and is still revered post-Le Cirque 2000) geared to restaurant work (which is where most will likely work), you're totally immersed in an amazing pastry city surrounded by media and so many of the best pastry chefs in the country and FCI does enable you to potentially network more easily within this community. As you suspect, one of the main reasons to go to school is to get networked--to get the door opened for you a little more easily. As a possible career-changer in NYC, Scots, in addition to FCI I'd give strong consideration to ICE/Peter Kump's, though can no longer recommend NYRS. (Not for purposes of this immediate discussion, but for younger students who happen to read this thread down the road--in NYC I highly recommend the NYC Technical College for their degree program as long as Francis Lorenzini and Louise Hoffman are still professors there.) Back to FCI and negatives for you to consider: it is expensive, very very expensive--but at least the expense is not diluted by having to pay for externship clock hours. And despite the excellent curriculum, despite the reputation of the school, despite the location--your experience will still largely depend on who you get as a teacher there--it's not Jacques, who was paid for the curriculum and presumably is paid to give demos and have his name affiliated with the school. So with all this going on for the school--any school--it always comes down to the actual instructor level--who is teaching your class on a day to day basis. And frankly, full time instructors at this and other cooking schools can be less experienced, less successful, less highly regarded within the industry, less likely to be as talented as the best people working in the field: the pay isn't as good as it should be in order to attract and retain "the best", school administrations don't value their teachers or compensate them as well as they should given the high cost of tuition, etc. It isn't easy to get real information and the schools themselves are certainly not going to help you figure this out--they want to cash your check. On that note, what distinguishes L'Academie most in my mind is the dedication and commitment of their pastry instructor, Mark Ramsdell, who taught me back in '92 and is still there doing the bulk, if not all, of the professional pastry instruction--he's a consummate teaching professional, changed careers himself and is the best thing about that school. Of course, you have to weigh the fact that it is in Gaithersburg, and, well, Gaithersburg, and DC for that matter, is not New York City. (You don't need to go to school in order to land a job making lemon curd tarts or apple pies or bread pudding.) Plus, from reading Malawry's diary I believe they are revamping their pastry program--so check the new cost and time commitment. I'm against this whole "paying tuition in order to extern somewhere" scam as a way of extending your education--your time at the school. I am in favor of the FCI model for career changers--6 months full time instruction, extern on your own time while you are in school. If you go to L'Academie, go there for Mark, but be leery of paying money just to extern. It's still essentially a 300 hour part-time program spread out over 24 weeks--12 hours instruction per week--followed by another 300 hours of externship. But why pay after-tax dollars for an externship earning you back $7 or $8 dollars an hour if you are lucky? You can extern on your own and spend your money elsewhere to much greater effect. (More on that later.) So, the biggest question you'd have to ask yourself about L'Academie--what are you going to do for the 24 weeks when I'm only in class for 12 hours per week? And if you start working in the field during those 24 weeks to fill up the time--to accelerate your progress--why continue with an externship? I have to admit I always get a chuckle when I receive the big CIA bulletins in the mail--very rarely will the actual instructor be mentioned. For them, it isn't about the specific course instructor--well guess what? It is. After location, IT IS ALL ABOUT THE INSTRUCTOR. A good, motivated instructor can transcend material or location and really connect with you, really impart knowledge and motivation and get you thinking critically about the difference between good, pretty good and great. So wherever you consider going--be it the CIA or FCI or ?--press them to name the instructor for your course--and then find out from current and recent students what they thought of that instructor, their background, achievements, etc. Is that instructor's own work good--is he/she currently working in the field, doing or creating or only working in the classroom, teaching? Sit in on classes but realize current students don't know anything--they're still hopeful and chipper and stupid--better to ask grads 2-5 years out of the program. Find out how many are working "in the field." Again, this kind of information is not readily made available to prospective students--who'd willingly disclose that only 2 career-changers out of a class of 10 are actually employed doing pastry x years down the road? (I sense the majority of pastry career-changers leave the field, or never really entered it to begin with, finding it too tough to make a living for too little reward.) But you have to consider this--especially if you expect to make a name for yourself and make a living doing pastry rather than as a hobby. Another comment typically uttered by some giving advice, which I think is a complete crock, is that it doesn't matter where you go to school--it just matters how much you put into it. Sorry, if you choose to go to pastry school at bumfuck community college in a lousy market with a lousy teacher surrounded by lousy restaurants with bitter old frustrated pastry chefs fearing life has passed them by you're screwed no matter how much you put into it. You're hindered not helped and you've wasted your time. That said--I have met very talented, incredibly dedicated teachers toiling away in the hinterlands who you could learn alot from to get you grounded--and then go off to work later in an elite food city. I agree with the others who have said that you need to get thee into a pastry stage or trailing situation immediately at the best restaurant, caterer, patisserie near you and start seeing what the job is like--this job that you are thinking of chucking away your career for. You have to have this under your belt and it will make your potential school experience more valuable--should you eventually decide to go to school somewhere. We've discussed this here on the site with Elizabeth 11 and others so find those threads so I don't have to re-write that again. Call up Kerry Sear at Cascadia and offer to work for free helping him prep or plate desserts--and if not Kerry, someone else elite or with name recognition. At this point it doesn't matter where or what you actually think--you need to do. Tell these chefs you are older, reliable, professional, willing to do anything to get your foot in the door--and then bust your butt, work quietly, work "small," move quickly and don't ask alot of stupid questions. You will likely work alongside prep cooks from El Salvador, Guatemala and Mexico, who don't speak English and do all of this better and faster than you do anyway, so learn some Spanish. Make the chef glad he gave you a chance. Now--for another perspective that I'm coming around to as I see the way the industry has changed over the years, as I've seen pastry people make names for themselves--you really don't have to go to school. There are plenty of working pastry pros--schooled or not-- who have lousy skill sets, turning out numbingly routine desserts with little thought or creativity. You don't have to go to school for that. If you are smart and creative and have some cash, there is something to be said for spending some of your money to travel extensively, especially abroad to Spain and France, to taste and eat your way through some of the better restaurants and pastry shops and chocolate shops to develop your palate. Eat classic and cutting edge. You will not develop your palate IN school but outside of school. Meet pastry chefs, write them, talk your way into their kitchens and shops for stages of varying lengths--build up (pad) your resume and absorb all this like a sponge. Start reading French and Spanish pastry books NOW. Go visit Patrice in Montreal and visit Michael in Detroit and Eric Bedoucha at Bayards in NYC and Paul Connors in Minneapolis and Bill Yosses at Citarella and Herme, of course Herme, and Conticini at Peltier and go to Spain and visit El Bulli, from which this new sense of pastry, this synergy of chef & pastry chef all springs, and then Espai Sucre and Rovira and... As chefette mentioned in her post restaurant pastry is changing dramatically, many working pastry chefs and bakers are being left behind, though PA&D, the French and the schools don't want you to realize that just yet. The schools don't want you to hear this, but frankly, they're not keeping up either in talent, staff, techniques, value, relevance or flavor. And that's where the value of this mixed use approach might benefit you--though laid off, maybe freelance or consult part-time so money keeps rolling in and start working somewhere immediately, for free, to see what the "job" is like; start travelling immediately with a pastry orientation in mind, especially to Paris and Spain for some patisseries and 3-star Michelin meals, write ahead and talk your way into kitchens for short-medium length stages--and then when you have some critical mass under your belt consider taking week-long classes with great people at places like the French Pastry School or Ewald Notter's school. Not that they are all necessarily better "teachers," being a top pastry chef doesn't mean you can teach, but add up a bunch of specialized classes and you have been exposed to a broad general education of elite work conducted at a very accomplished level. And you will have saved a TON of money that you will have spent better elsewhere. (Or which could be invested in yourself--in a small chocolate business or specialty cake business or bakery, etc.) Bottom line: there's a higher standard out there that general schools are not meeting and that, frankly, most working pastry chefs and bakers are not meeting either. You need to seek out, experience and taste that higher standard--see if you have what it takes inside yourself--the desire, the spark, the ambition, some hope to develop the skills or palate-- and then make up your own mind whether you want to spend your life meeting it, surpassing it or settling for some mid-level mediocrity. And all of this is compressed for you because you are 38. But I am a firm believer that it is not your age that counts, it is not about paying your dues--it is about what you can do and discovering what you are meant to do. And rest assured there is no one right way to pursue this--so try to find the way that works for you.

As I said, we "checked" knives Wilfrid on our last domestic flight without any problem. My international experiences have been different and I had a major problem in London, pre-9/11, though that would hardly constitute a fair sample. After having this one isolated problem--I heard from several friends London has always been tough. Post 9/11 I have to imagine they're even tougher. Regardless, if you know you need something, if it is integral to your experience, why not send it ahead?

Wow, odd to re-read this in light of 9/11. That first anecdote of mine would definitely have a different resolution now. We brought big knives to Orlando recently in checked baggage no problem. (United out of Dulles.) I'd still FedEx your stuff ahead Liza.

So to recap: A few months ago, before SG's AMEX decision, I wrote that the Herbfarm seemed to be a "gastro-tourist gimmicky self-involved hokey production. I don't care how inventive or emotive this Northwest amateur hour--oops, six hour--touring production of "Cats" is, it just won't ever be worth enduring for me because it is still "Cats." I don't care how good the individual dishes may be I would be so frustrated by what seem to me to be one anti-customer service policy and procedure after another I would probably have to stand up and scream" and "This is fine dining shtick for the Branson Missouri busload and USA Today crowd." Fat-Guy wondered about the "general phenomenon of big-fish-in-small-pond restaurants. I've been to so many of them now that I'm far beyond being able to be surprised at the Herbfarm's behavior. Indeed what I'd be surprised to find in an Herbfarm-like situation would be humility" and followed it up with "For all I know the food at the Herbfarm is superb. Maybe there are some dishes served there that are as good as some dishes served at Jean Georges or Les Crayeres. I don't know. But what I do know is that you'd never see this kind of behavior from Jean-Georges Vongerichten because he plays in the arena with Daniel Boulud, Eric Ripert, David Bouley, Christian Delouvrier, and Alain Ducasse, whereas the people running the Herbfarm display all the telltale signs of small-time, small-town, small-minded, unchecked arrogance and it sure looks like they need to be taken down a notch. And if the local and national food media won't do it, we'll be happy to do it here on eGullet." Then SG, when asked to compare just how good her dinner there was, replied "I have enjoyed incredible dinners at ADNY, Jean George, Lespinasse, French Laundry, Everest, Mansion on Turtle Creek and Gary Danko...it is definitely not in that league. IMO, I also don't think it could hold its own course for course in food, service or wine (though they do have a great cellar) with Ouest, Gramercy, Veritas or Picholine. It couldn't match Le Cirque, Aureole or Aqua in Las Vegas." And this was prior to the predictable AMEX resolution. So really, is there anything left to say? Is anyone really surprised a puppet might be a part of the dog and pony show?

I just laid out a possible case why it might make sense Steve--and all this stuff is chef-driven, not customer-driven, anyway. Customers--and I consider the media a customer--are sheep. Let's recap--the best chefs and restaurants in NYC are predominantly French, have been in their current mode and annointed at the top for awhile, the French have a vested interest in retaining their Frenchness, their superiority, their traditionalism, even in the United States, very few French chefs have openly embraced Spain and what Ferran Adria has been saying to the rest of the world. The best chefs--and most media savvy chefs-- in Chicago are Trotter and Rick--who aren't French, in fact, aren't beholden to any culinary framework or tradition at all. They went to El Bulli early on. In NYC, I'm not aware that Tom Colicchio has been influenced by Ferran--he's doing his own thing--somewhat conservatively, or rather, with less innovation than you'd like to see--yet doing it well. Schaem pointed this out in an earlier post--Laurent Gras had to go to SF for his star turn--I'd add that another forward-thinking "innovative" French chef like Philippe Conticini returned to Paris after a stint in NYC. Last I looked there is no Le Bernardin, Le Cirque, Lespinasse, Ducasse in Chicago competing with the likes of Trotter and Tru and Trio and...I could go on. There's more creative freedom there, perhaps there is more in Boston and SF. Why is it so hard to suspect that NYC--leader in all things cultural etc.--may be just a little bit behind the curve and that the chefs there are a little more resistant, a little more entrenched in maintaining the status quo which has served them well, a little more hesitant to go all Adria on their clientele? Why do think a Blue Hill is seen as so special in NYC? One reason, among many, is that Dan and Mike are stretching a bit, are experimenting a bit with more personal cooking and aren't acting like they're beholden to any tradition.

Steve--good point, but Chicago has been happening for a long time. Sandro Gamba went there after DC, and not to NYC, for his star turn. Also, Trotter and Rick Tramonto were among the first US chefs to go to El Bulli--before the Heston Blumenthals or Paul Liebrandts became aware of Ferran--and certainly before any of the elite French chefs in NY. You see, the French and lovers of French cooking have this thing about giving away the appearance of the high ground to Spain. You know, and have argued, how traditional and resistant to change the French are--even the French chefs infused with the freedom of an American spirit. Is it really that surprising that some of the El Bulli-driven innovation has taken hold elsewhere? Chefs like a Ken Oringer in Boston also began emulating Adria before most New Yorkers--like those at Trio--he garnered praise and glowing reviews and other chefs around the country take notice of his climb. Despite this, there is probably more El Bulli in NYC than I think you realize, but I think we've mentioned that before on other threads.

Well, as innovative as straight out of Spain can be, right?

Yes, Paul, and one thing I'd add to my previous post--it takes a chef/owner willing to admit he/she needs a pastry chef--willing to hire, pay and support a pastry chef capable of going beyond vanilla ice cream and a brownie--and work on both of their parts to create a synergy between them so those great clean flavor matches, to use wingding's example, extend thoughout the course of an entire meal. Start spreading the news, Paul--like Patrice has done here--call inventive chefs to account when their desserts are a letdown. Lesley's tired of innovation that doesn't succeed and doesn't work--I'm more tired of poor desserts with little thought and no innovation. We both have jaded palates--guess we've been eating at different places!

No, I'm in the "as long as it is good" camp first, and then the "desserts should follow the cuisine" camp second. In fact, Adria's "curry-chocolate-coconut" would be warranted on J-G's menu--if they had a pastry chef who could pull it off. And I'd enjoy a good vanilla ice cream and an underdone chocolate brownie like any other diner--after a meal which warranted it. Like in a diner or maybe in a bakery after a sandwich or if I found myself in some touristy safe place like Union Square Cafe. Just not in an elite 4 star restaurant in an elite food city like NYC where the chef is viewed as inventive and daring.

Jaybee--in a way, haven't you just described the entire basis of Western medical education?

SG--have you seen Patrice's review of a similarly recent meal at J-G?

Well, all the reports except for the first place you're being kind to. Owned by a female chef or restaurateur?

You're kidding, right, Lady T?