Steve Klc

That seems to be the party line, britcook. We're only talking icewine here, right? Taste a refreshingly acidic Vidal icewine from NOTL in a good year, especially aged for a few years, and you might sing a different tune--or at least stay open to the possibility. In fact, when Randall Grahm--maker of Bonny Doon's icebox dessert wine mentioned in the Kummer article and I believe the #1 best selling dessert wine in the US-- was here in the DC area not too long ago, he had the Vidal-based dessert wines from Linden Vineyards, about an hour's drive west from the city, and he remarked that after tasting Jim Law's Vidal, he now had "titratable acidity envy." He couldn't find out enough about Linden's stuff fast enough. I think what he meant by that is as a winemaker or grower--you can manipulate the body and depth of flavor somewhat--or at least make choices along the way from harvest to release which affect this--but you can't do much about the acidity--and it has to be there or you aren't going to get an interesting wine. I also think part of the vidal/riesling comparison is that the winemakers themselves have to figure out where to grow each grape and how to grow each grape within their given micro-climate and we have to figure out what to match them with, if anything at all. I expect we'll see much more on this, especially over here in the US. I've also had really terrific Vidal icewines from Chateau des Charmes, Henry of Pelham, Cave Spring, even Magnotta in the past few years, but I had to go there to try them, most aren't exported. Though now with Ontario VQA wines accepted into the EU, you probably can get these quite easily.

The January 2003 Food & Wine magazine has a brief piece on icewines--and the 2000 Inniskillin Vidal comes out as their top pick. We've talked about icewines before on the site and about Inniskillin. Here's a link to an otherwise informative article on icewines (and some botrytis talk) by Corby Kummer where he disses Inniskillin, and also reveals he hasn't much of a palate for appreciating dessert wines, even less of an idea of how to use them in or pair them up effectively with desserts: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/12/.../kummerfood.htm From there you can follow links to Inniskillin itself. (Though one thing Kummer gets right is that the more expensive Oak-aged Vidal is a strange bird. I have a hard time appreciating it by itself and I haven't paired it successfully with a dessert yet.) Monica, without having tasted the wine you have, your best bet may be to serve it as dessert. Vanilla, almonds, shortbread, saffron, cream might be the safe flavor notes to start with if you thought about creating a dessert for it--the problem is, if you haven't tasted the wine, you're going to have a hard time figuring out how to play off the sweetness and the acidity of it. I like the regular Inniskillin Vidal so much I built a dessert to showcase it--from bottom to top--some arborio cooked in coconut milk and coconut water, then a not-too-sweet coconut panna cotta, infused with vanilla, topped with a thin layer of the Vidal icewine gelee, with a tiny dice of Asian pear and little flecks of vanilla bean suspended in it. Clean, crisp, acidic, tropical. And try not drinking it so well-chilled all the time--you may find there are things about the wine you appreciate more as it warms up.

Suzanne, you are not kidding about the Model T--you know, it really hasn't been that long since these things got wide distribution. I was an early adopter but I can't even remember what I did before these things--I sure have zested alot more in recent years. Appreciating the excellence of a tool brings it out. No one has mentioned whether they like the black handle or not? I use that overhand method where you rock the fruit along the zester as well. The two most interesting uses of it I've seen are Jose Andres grating raw cauliflower over a salad--it looked and tasted like parmesan--and Alberto Adria grating long shavings of bright green Sicilian pistachios into a pile and then rolling a ball of white chocolate espuma (foam) in them. That was a very cool truffle. (Oh, and Ferran Adria shaves cauliflower--then sautes it in some butter and broth and turns it into a "cous cous.") Mark, they're so cheap buy them all. I personally haven't used the small, narrow black handled one for "spices" yet but it sure is cute.

Here's the direct link to one of the Bella reviews: http://www.phillyweekly.com/archives/artic....asp?ArtID=4706 It's by Robin Rinaldi, and it's nice to see that her editors have let her off the cheap eats ethnic and "Nigella Bites it Big" beat.

Shaw--you have to cut this crap out right now. How do you expect our friend and colleague Bill to make a name for himself if you cover all the best angles of the "East Coast guy moves West" for him? Bill, by the way, we're all so happy for you--you deserve this so much. When you say you'll be reviewing "ethnic" will there be a "cheap eats" element to your beat as well? (I'm thinking Village Voice/NY press/ out there maybe SF Weekly?) And if that isn't enough, are you taking over a pre-existing position or did they create a new one?

Nick--yes, under Ruth's watch, and yes, you read me correctly, that there is a seeming disconnect in ranking such a restaurant as #1. For me it has nothing to do with inventiveness or lack of a wow factor--you'd have to make such a strong case, given such obvious shortcomings in areas like menu options, customer service and wine, that CP had far superior cooking and/or ingredients than similarly perceived elite restaurants also lacking in wow factor--no offense intended, but let's use Gramercy Tavern, much lower ranked on that list as an example. (You'd have a hard time making the case that CP is a superior restaurant experience to Craft as well.) With GT--not even getting into food or cooking--you get a world class, very dynamic beverage director, an incredible wine by the glass program, arguably the best overall and most influential service program nationwide, and at the time, a real talented pastry chef producing an extended dessert service rivalling any in NYC, no mean feat. (The fact that Claudia actually embraced the Chez Panisse philosophy, easily surpassing it with much more sophistication, refinement and elegance--in effect, doing CP better than CP ever did--seals the deal for me.) It gets really comical when you start adding these up--and begins to look a tad too disingenuous, no? Here's eGullet's first discussion of it, Rosie generously posted the ranking from 1 to 50, with Robert Brown and Shaw, especially, picking up the ball and running with it: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=ST...met,and,panisse Also note this list, and the #1 ranking for CP, was published just before a December 2001 Gourmet magazine event in Napa was announced, called the Gourmet Experience Weekend, with a top ticket price of $500 and which included the participation of Alice Waters. (Nick--did you miss the Gourmet magazine chef trading cards as well?) Margaret--very well said, and that does make the impending FL move to NYC all the more interesting--in terms of perception vs. reality--doesn't it? I still see it as a ballsy, risky move, and the media has already indicated we can expect it to be as covered as the Ducasse move. Does Keller believe he operates above real criticism, that there is no such thing as real criticism anymore or possibly that everyone who counts in food media is already in the bag? I also wonder whether FL-NY will prove as interesting a story as AD-NY--as uniformly embraced as AD-NY was uniformly rejected--erroneously as it turned out--so that a media voice a la Steve Shaw in Commentary magazine would be able to rise up to debunk the status quo and tell it like it really was.

Nick--you read Gourmet, don't you? CP was #1.

Mike--you mentioned receiving a large pour at one point--if you had to estimate the normal pour to accompany the tasting menu--would it be the normal pour if you ordered something by the glass--or were the portions described as smaller, tasting portions at that given price point?

Butter--the not so secret weapon in some restaurant kitchens. Thank you mikec for the interesting report. How were you charged for the wines?

Schaem--are you aware of chefs who decline to skim stock or who employ other novel methods? Advice re: chicken stock that you may have tried--and rejected--based on your palate?

Seems to me you've laid out the flow chart, wouldn't experimentation on your part--and tasting the results to assess the differences--give you most of your answers? I think the Nike ad campaign is relevant here--just do it--in fact, do it every day until you make it through list. Best way to resolve doubt. Plus, chicken is cheap, even free range chicken. You've fixated on an affordable subject.

Dave--all restaurants have off nights and we're by no means a representative sample. I'm glad you'll be with us as we try again.

SG--you know me, I can just listen to chefs babble on about (and gullible writers regurgitate) the by now well-heeled mantras about "pristine organic local artisanal ingredients simply but impeccably prepared yet oh-so-elegantly presented" before I feel compelled either to spit or to focus on other issues. (Like, what's with those three French cheeses--guess the self-touted CP definition of "local" exists on a conveniently global sliding scale--and in any event these must have been organic and fair trade and hand-carried wrapped in straw rather than flown into the US thereby 'eating less oil' and reducing their number of 'food miles' or some such diversion.) I thought of you the whole time, SG, as I savored the way Marcus critically guided us through his experience. No, I think the CP issues for me, apart from errant iconography and some misguided myth, are 1) how can a restaurant with this philosophy and these customer service policies be considered in any way a valid choice for best restaurant in the country? and 2) though rigid, does CP make a fair offer to its prospective customers--do they know going in what to expect--and does CP allow prospective customers to opt out of said offer without any financial penalty once the offer is fully revealed? (I can accept arrogance as long as it is wholly out in the open and if diners aren't deceived going in. I've had excellent meals at the hands of arrogant chefs--Michel Richard is as arrogant as they come--yet at his hands I had one superb meal and been grateful for the experience ever since.) I'm not prepared to complete this troika with FL just yet--I still come out pro-FL after considering all factors and far more worthy contenders exist anyway--though I appreciate the bait. Plus, it's not like FL hasn't generated enough interesting discussion on this site already and with the ballsy pending move to NYC, our best days wrt FL "East" and FL "West" are undoubtedly ahead of us. (For anyone piqued by my food miles reference, visit: http://www.sustainweb.org/chain_fm_eat.asp

Even simpler preparations upstairs? Thank you for taking the time to craft this: "Our experience, unfortunately, was problematic and as Chez Panisse is such an icon, I have been debating for awhile whether to make this report based on a single visit. However, the extent to which this restaurant is structured to satisfy its own purposes, rather than the needs of its customers, convinces me that a report will be useful." Very useful, very revealing, as was the rest of your report, especially as to service issues. Were wines offerred by the glass--paired with each selection, since with only a fixed menu these selections would be known to the staff well in advance--and, ideally, even created around particular wines? Did you get the sense there was a sommelier or wine director? (You'd think the best restaurant in the country--according to at least one major national food glossy--would have a wine director or somm on the floor at all times?) Let's see, first eGullet thoroughly deconstructs the Herbfarm and now a revealing assessment of Chez Panisse. One down, one to go? There didn't happen to be a non-refundable credit card guarantee if you decide you don't like the restaurant's menu offer weeks after making reservations, did there?

And the disappointing big names were...? The cuts of meat you chose were...?

The neighborhood is hot. Very hot. I've heard rumors of a place--dedicated chef, pizza, impeccable ingredients, all ice creams made in house--this might be it. Thanks for the lead Nick.

You and I and the group will go to Heritage India, we'll let Monica report on Bombay Club.

Dave--fair observations, I am sure, based on your experiences there. What are you comparing them to, so I can gauge your dissatisfaction of price or value or portion size or flavor? I'll be a little stronger and a little more specific since we eat there often--we eat at each place maybe twice each month. I always order the same thing at Rio Grande--all beef or half and half fajitas, extra pico, extra roasted onions. We peel our grilled jalapeno tableside and love the strips. Chips and salsa best of their type in the region. Service is incredible--possibly unrivalled in the region--drinks, water, iced tea, chips, tortillas constantly filled and replaced without asking. For a volume place, the food is served very quickly and consistently--virtually all the time. Out of maybe 80 visits over years I can count on one hand the number of times my fajitas were not brought to the table sizzling literally on a hot skillet and were not perfectly absolutely flavorful. Portion size is quite large, I enjoy eating with mucho gusto and have been known to eat alot at a sitting--I once ate four Cincinnati 5-ways at one sitting at Hard Times Chili when I was younger--and I don't finish this dish. My wife and I share it and one app--say the chicken tamales with green tomatillo sauce--and we barely finish it. One app, one entree for the two of us--my very good iced tea has been refilled like 20 times without ever having to ask--and then I tip well. And I invariably leave all the other places with poor service--the Cactus Cantina, Guajillo-like pretenders--and repeat your very same mantra about not being as good an experience as it could have been, like Rio Grande. Funny, huh? Only Guapo's adds enough interesting flavor and spice from Colombia, Latin America, etc. to make me want to order off the menu there--and not go to Rio Grande. There's no doubt Flat Top Grill does present a challenge to a diner and my wife and I speculate about the demands it inherently imposes on the diner by having you compose and season your own dish. As chefs and cooks we're both up to the task, appreciate it, crave it even though even we have not liked our own creations at times. It's a one-price all-you-can-eat concept, so at least your mistakes don't cost you. They do it your way--even cooking it your way--so if you are a vegetarian you will be completely placated--no meat juices mingling side by side on the grill if you don't want them to. I usually interact with the grill cooks if I'm concerned about something being overcooked--say tuna or shrimp. Aside from this, the remaining service at this location is very good--engaging young servers, very adequate attention to detail, dishes brought to you hot off the grill, low end unimaginative wines not outrageously marked up given area standards. Plus it is a real dining bargain, lunch is a steal and priced even lower. We don't try to go to either place when it is prime time--we go weekends just when they open to early afternoon, very early weeknights only, both places have patios, Rio Grande an incredible patio, as incredible as a patio in an over-developed urban wasteland can be. To bring this back to Middle Eastern food, first IsItSoupYet, you'd have to define "not too pretentious," but I've always had good cooking, which just happened to be wonderful Lebanese cooking, at Lebanese Taverna, very respectful of tradition and yet very popular, even before I got to know the family of dedicated brothers and sisters (beautiful engaging sweethearts all) who run the business or Abdoul, one of their talented chefs who makes amazingly thin phyllo by hand every day, the artisanal way, and has taught me. As a visitor, I'd opt for the newer beautiful Pentagon City location--(though the older Washington Blvd location is nearer to Rio Grande)--Pentagon is a more elegant setting, order a bottle of a great Lebanese red (Hochar/Musar) and enjoy. Nice patio, too. I also hear the cooking is pretty good at Zaytinya. But then I know all the chefs there. And Monica--I await your visit to Bombay Club. If I have ever experienced underwhelming Indian cooking dumbed down and mailed in for an indiscriminating non-Indian clientele who didn't know any better, this was it. I hope you find it improved, and you just might, since so much depends on the chef and cooks at the stations.

So you're Richmond based? Perhaps you'd be willing to start another thread about how you find the state of dining there? I still have to find time to post about a fantastic recent experience I had in Fredericksburg, VA at Bistro 309--now there's a chef and restaurant worth driving to from DC for the food--and you're close to it as well. Eve Zibart got this one right--writing about it a year or so ago--though perhaps she didn't go far enough in describing how good this place is or perhaps the chef has grown more confident and his team more assured over time. Suvir and a few others around here, me included, might gently disagree that NYC, at present, has more "great Indian restaurants than you can shake the proverbial stick at" but that sense is always very temporal, and certainly improves or deteriorates quickly. Have you read Suvir's writing on Diwan, Tamarind, Tabla et al? If not, do, you're in for a treat. And Dave, that's not soo bad--the Cheesecake Factory has been known to win Reader's Choice awards for fine dining in some much larger cities.

That's great Monica--I can't wait. Just with the places named on this thread, I've had average to indifferent experiences at Haandi-Falls Church and Haandi-Bethesda (though to be fair Dave, this was over 2 years ago) and had average-to-disappointing experiences at Bombay Palace downtown and Heritage India-Glover Park--perhaps because I went in to the latter two with hope, with higher expectations. (With some exceptions, service is underwhelming or uneven citywide, even at the highest end at Citronelle, so that wouldn't be a factor for me writing a place off. If you eat out alot in DC you expect to endure service issues--it's such a given that when you actually have fresh, attentive, caring service you tend to become very loyal.) I haven't been back to any of them once I was exposed to a few hints of what Indian cooking could represent--alas in NYC, not ever in DC--and I have much more to learn from those who have eaten elsewhere like you and Suvir and many other eGulleteers. Tom Sietsema continues to speak well of Heritage India, and I'm inclined to believe Tom, so maybe we should plan a visit, and regardless, I look forward to you helping raise our awareness down here and you've already done that by revealing a couple of unknown little places. (Maybe we could entice Suvir down?) But you also raised an interesting point about Indian cooking here and restaurateurs possibly "being focused on more of an American audience." It's certainly not exclusive to any ethnic or genre of cooking or even this city--but I would be especially grateful for you to draw on your experiences cooking and creating Indian cuisine or Indian-influenced cuisine as you know it capable of being--and as you have had elsewhere--when trying to assess our local options. I continually wonder how much is lost locally in our collective tolerance of chefs "Americanizing" and cooking specifically for the tastes that they perceive our local customer base wants or can handle--and my sense of our customer base is that it is undervalued--too typically defined as conservative and unadventurous--to a degree not seen in Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, let alone the top tier food cities. I think what gets lost by this pandering often is what is good, or what could be good--elements like palate interest and vitality in food--which have to be perceived by tasting. Some of it might be tied to price/value considerations but there is some very good cooking here in DC which represents very good value--which makes me wonder if it isn't more disrespect and disinterest--on the part of chefs themselves and of their audience? What has your Middle Eastern dining experience been down here Monica? And Dave--decor is never a disincentive for me--it's either good or it isn't and I'm usually grateful for the tip regardless of the wallpaper or lighting. We usually go to Rio Grande or Flat Top Grill on that street and just get kebabs from the Lebanese Taverna market on Lee Highway, but we just might have to give FF a shot.

Thanks Monica for those two recommendations, but I'm interested in the over-hyped, over-priced ones that you have not enjoyed--and why you were disappointed? Do you plan to post publically only about meals you like? I realize Soup asked where to go--but where not to go, and your reasons why, might be an interesting dialogue as well.

And then there's always pate sablee...

Try to find Dr. Parce Domaine du Mas Blanc, you'll also find Chapoutier and Domaine de la Rectorie on lists. And don't forget the wines of AOC Maury, the other vin doux naturel, perhaps you can find Domaine du Mas Amiel. Some are more tightly allocated than others and restaurants have a habit of buying the best stuff. Realize some of these wines are hard to get a hold of--some can work with meats and cheeses and on their own--and these wines are not necessarily slam dunks with chocolate desserts. Depends on the dessert and the wine. To find out more about these wines, the best writing on the subject I recall was by Ed Behr, he devoted one issue of his newsletter the Art of Eating to Maury and Banyuls. It would be worth ordering that particular back issue from him. Some of his strongest writing is about wine and wine producers.

In the Washington Post today, "Glossy and Greedy: Real Page-Turners" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...2-2002Dec2.html Here's the concluding paragraph, nicely expressed I think: "Perhaps other corporate magazine executives are not so crass -- or so honest. But they all share a quality that distinguishes them from an earlier generation of magazine publishers, men like Time's Henry Luce, Esquire's Arnold Gingrich, even Playboy's Hugh Hefner: This new breed exhibits no passion about bringing their own personal vision of truth and beauty to magazine readers. They are mere managers, empty suits with spreadsheet souls. That's why most of their magazines are so timid, so tepid, so insipid."

You might as well ask what "natural" means.