Patrick S

Darcie B, later on, and in another thread, we will look at the published field trial data and see just how much 'myth' versus fact there is in the assertion that organic farming has lower yields/hectare on average. But as I said, for right now, in this thread, I want to focus on the topic established by Danielle. I say this just because I don't want you to think I'm rudely ignoring any of the points you made.

Right, I think we can agree (I think?) that there are target-specific and non-toxic (to humans) pesticides in both the natural and synthetic classes. Now, are you claiming that --as a group-- natural farmer-applied pesticides are more target specific and less toxic to humans at the doses at which they are typically applied? If so, could you provide a reference in support of that claim? If not, then there is still no reason to prefer the natural over the synthetic variety, IMHO.

I respectfully disagree. The issue at hand was determined by the person who started the thread (Danielle), gave it the title 'Pesticides in Fruits and Vegetables,' and asked for opinions about the issue of 'Pesticides in Fruits and Vegetables.' The issue of 'Pesticides in Fruits and Vegetables' is obvious dissociable from what other pros and cons there are to conventional/organic agriculture.

My bad. Bruce Ames is the author's correct name (and the Ames test inventor).

I'm not a moderator of course, but I would really be pleased if this thread remained focused with laser-like precision on the issue of pesticides in fruits and vegetables. Its an important issue and one that influences a lot of buying decisions. Not that the other stuff isnt important, but I hope the pesticide issue doesnt get diluted by discussion of other stuff. Just MHO.

That's right. But you are aware (I assume) that organic does NOT mean, and never has meant, pesticide free? Organic certification allows for the application of a variety of toxic pesticides, so long as they are not synthetic. Pyrethrum, sulpher, copper, neem, sabadilla, rotenone, oil!, Bt bacteria spray, etc all are used in organic farming. Copper and sulpher --and I assume the rest also-- are also toxic to a wide range of non-target organisms. It doesn't matter how toxic to man or how damaging to soil a chemical is -- if it is produced by nature rather than man, it can be used in organic farming. I only bring this up because I am routinely surprised by how widespread is the misconception that organic farmers don't use pesticides, which is simply false. More info on organic pesticides at: Nature's Toxic Tools: The Organic Myth of Pesticide-Free Farming. Oh, you could produice enough food without synthetics alright. The problem is that since yields per hectare are on average much lower with organic techniques, you'd need to clear a lot more land to make room for all the farm acres. You could not produce enough food to feed the country using organic agriculture without using a lot more land than is currently used. And of course, though they look nature-y, farms actually (usually) represent a decimation of biodiversity, a replacement of many plant species with just a few. I mean, rolling fields of corn or wheat or whatever is hardly biodiversity.

Ruth Kava has a funny article along the same lines, pointing out just a few of the all-natural carcinogens present in a typical holiday meal. I read it a few years ago, and it really got me thinking. Here are some of the examples she gives of known carcinogens in food we eat all the time: Acetaldehyde (apples, bread, coffee, tomatoes)—mutagen and potent rodent carcinogen Acrylamide (bread, rolls)—rodent and human neurotoxin; rodent carcinogen Aflatoxin (nuts)—mutagen and potent rodent carcinogen; also a human carcinogen Allyl isothiocyanate (arugula, broccoli, mustard)—mutagen and rodent carcinogen Aniline (carrots)—rodent carcinogen Benzaldehyde (apples, coffee, tomatoes)—rodent carcinogen Benzene (butter, coffee, roast beef)—rodent carcinogen Benzo(a)pyrene (bread, coffee, pumpkin pie, rolls, tea)—mutagen and rodent carcinogen Benzofuran (coffee)—rodent carcinogen Benzyl acetate (jasmine tea)—rodent carcinogen Caffeic acid (apples, carrots, celery, cherry tomatoes, cof-fee, grapes, lettuce, mangos, pears, potatoes)—rodent carcinogen Catechol (coffee)—rodent carcinogen Coumarin (cinnamon in pies)—rodent carcinogen 1,2,5,6-dibenz(a)anthracene (coffee)—rodent carcinogen Estragole (apples, basil)—rodent carcinogen Ethyl alcohol (bread, red wine, rolls)—rodent and human carcinogen Ethyl acrylate (pineapple)—rodent carcinogen Ethyl benzene (coffee)—rodent carcinogen Ethyl carbamate (bread, rolls, red wine)—mutagen and rodent carcinogen Furan and furan derivatives (bread, onions, celery, mushrooms, sweet potatoes, rolls, cranberry sauce, coffee)—many are mutagens Furfural (bread, coffee, nuts, rolls, sweet potatoes)—furan derivative and rodent carcinogen Heterocyclic amines(roast beef, turkey)—mutagens and rodent carcinogens Hydrazines (mushrooms)—mutagens and rodent carcinogens Hydrogen peroxide (coffee, tomatoes)—mutagen and rodent carcinogen Hydroquinone (coffee)—rodent carcinogen d-limonene (black pepper, mangos)—rodent carcinogen 4-methylcatechol (coffee)—rodent carcinogen Methyl eugenol (basil, cinnamon and nutmeg in apple and pumpkin pies)—rodent carcinogen Psoralens (celery, parsley)—mutagens; rodent and human carcinogens Quercetin glycosides (apples, onions, tea, tomatoes)—mutagens and rodent carcinogens Safrole (nutmeg in apple and pumpkin pies, black pepper)—rodent carcinogen Kava's article is here.

This is another subject on which there are alot of misconceptions. The estrogenic potency of synthetic pesticides residues are again vanishingly small compared to the estrogenic potency of many of our dietary components. Gold and Ames (2002) discuss this as well. I'm not saying don't worry, but I would caution against the misconception that all or even most of the hormonally active things we need to worry about are synthetic. A glass of soymilk or wine, for instance, has thousands of times the estrogenic potential of any synthetic pesticides residue from any serving of produce. That's from pages 87-88 of Gold et al, Misconceptions About the Causes of Cancer. Fraser Institute, Risk Controversy Series, available from: Here.

The reason that I am not afraid of synthetic pesticides residues in produce is that the amount of endogenous pesticides in produce -which standard toxicological tests show are just as toxic as synthetic pesticides- is roughly 10,000 times greater than that of synethetic pesticide residues. I don't really see it as worthwhile to spend ~50% more for produce that has only 0.01% less total pesticide content. Lois Gold and Thomas Ames, two of the world's leading toxicologists (Ames is the inventor of the 'Ames test' and the head of the National Toxicology Project), have written a lot on the matter, and managed to completely change my mind. In a 2002 summary of their work, they wrote: Personally, I see the text quoted from FoodNews as being enormously misleading, in that it doesn't bother to say that no plant can ever be pesticide free, and that synthetic pesticides residues are vanishingly small compared to levels of endogeous plant pesticides. Basically, I believe in buying fresh, and I believe in buying local, but I wont pay extra for 'organic' certification.

Thanks a million, Elie! EDIT: I had tried the three links to suppliers posted earlier in the thread. Two of them were inactive links, and one give a price in euros so I assumed it was a european supplier. My local WS store doesnt carry them, and I couldnt find any on their site, though I might have misspelled it.

Somehow, that picture is much less disturbing than the one of you as the doughboy.

Does anyone know of an online supplier for the tin or aluminum molds? I've seen some suppliers for silicone molds, but they've gotten mixed reviews on this thread, and the copper molds seem a little too pricey for someone like me.

Thanks to everyone who's posted pics and advice to this thread. These are definitely some of the most unique and attractive pastries I've ever seen. I can't wait to try them!

The Fauborg Pave's ganache made a great frosting for the Chocolate cake i just made from the "Cake Bible". ← I don't doubt that one bit! That caramel ganache is easily the best ganache Ive ever tasted. I don't know why I haven't used it more.

You're welcome Helen! I'm looking into ways using lenses to get even better shots of the cake structure, on a very small scale. I find it very interesting, in a geeky kinda way.

Actually, there's a cup and a half of oil in the cake. However the oil is emulsified with the eggs and sugar in a food processor, and I think that somehow that makes the cake seem lighter. I haven't tried any other recipe, so I don't have anything to compare this one to. Like I said, I don't really care for carrot cake. When the next blue moon comes around, I'll try that Frog Commissary cake.

That looks very nice, Drewman!

I've never been wild about carrot cake, but my wife recently requested one, so I made the one from Cooks Illustrated. Its pretty good, and I think the recipe might make a good base for a spice cake. I used slightly less carrot than the recipe called for --about 12ozs rather than 16. I was afraid the cake would be overly carroty, but it isn't. My daughter can't get enough of the cream cheese icing either. NOTE: Wendy or Neil, if you think these two pics are too large to embed in the thread, let me know and I'll shrink them. They are about 45kb each. I wanted to use larger pics to better show the structure of the cake.

I found one research article that compared peelzym-peeled mandarin oranges to hand-peeled oranges with respect to 'sensory qualities,' and the peelzym segments were judged to be preferable. I would guess that by removing more of the "albedo," the taste is sweeter. Liu et al, 2004. EFFECTS OF ENZYME-AIDED PEELING ON THE QUALITY OF LOCAL MANDARIN (CITRUS RETICULATA B.) SEGMENTS. Journal of Food Processing & Preservation 28 (5), 336-347.

Awesome. This enzyme would be perfect for preparing an orange tart. The last (and first) time I made an orange tart, I quickly learned that removing all traces of bitter pith is virtually impossible, and way too time-consuming to be worthwhile. I didn't know the word albedo was also used to refer to a part of fruit. It is used in climatology to refer to the reflectivity of a surface.

I found a copy of the recipe for the Parisian flan here. The picture is certainly drooligenic. PS may be my next cookbook purchase.

Not at all Patrick, I am just not sure it wouldn't make more sense omit the baking soda and increase the amount of baking powder if I am going to use Valrhona cocoa. It could be that your cake, although tasty, is quite different from what the author intended. ← Well, if the author intended for the recipe to be made with non-alkalized cocoa powder, I'm at a loss to explain why he didn't bother to specify this in his recipe. And though I can't say what Desaulnier intended the cake to be (beyond what the recipe says, that is), I can say that in addition to tasting great with alkalized cocoa, it also looks exactly like the picture in the book. Personally I always use dutched cocoa unless the recipes says otherwise, because I think it tastes much better.

Right, which is exactly what I meant. I meant Jello is derived from pork in the sense that the gelatin in Jello is derived from pork. At least some of it is. And my understanding is that it doesn't even matter is 99.999% of the gelatin comes from halaal animals, because any food that has had any contact with a haraam food, like pork, is itself haraam. It is, and as far as I can tell, always has been. Google searches for kosher+gelatin and halaal+gelatin shows thousands of discussions on the matter. I don't eat Jello brand products either, but I do use gelatin fairly frequently, to make bavarian creams and marshmallows and stabilized whipped cream. I know what you mean!

Good job on the macaroons and brownies, Serge! Nice photos as well.

Yes, I know what you meant, R. Washburn. What I'm telling you is that there is no reason at all that you can't use any unsweetened cocoa in that recipe, either dutched like Valrhona or Droste, or 'natural' like Hershey's of Scharffen Berger. All of these are unsweetened cocoas, and thus perfectly compatible with the recipe. The recipe does not in any sense "require untreated cocoa," either for taste or leavening. EDITED THE NEXT DAY: I hope I'm not coming across as grumpy. All I'm trying to say is that I've made the recipe with treated cocoa, and there was no problem at all. If you have a natural cocoa that you like, by all means use it. But there's no reason you cant use your Valrhona.