jgould

That's true, in France you would have to get a small carafe called "un quart" Well, 10,000 in a city of 8 million is kind of miniscule...Since we've also included the boroughs, I want to give a good word for Tournesol in LIC Queens. I think it might actually meet all 7 of jgould's criteria!! ← interestingly, the owners of tournesol are the same as le quinze! & it is more than 10,000 , but less than 100,000 FYI

your key words: "to my way of thinking", "IMO", "to me", "to my mind", "i'm looking for"; are just that - what interests YOU. i described my thoughts as to what i believe a french bistro should encompass in nyc, & was careful to avoid any view that others should feel the same. everyone is entitled to their opinion as to what constitutes a nyc french bistro. to describe these as "affectations" or a "disneyland bistro" is bizarre. one man's thoughts or opinions are not anothers idea; however, its clear the topic i'm discussing is something a little more subtle than perhaps your critique, but thanks anyway for opening up the discussion.

oddly & unfortunately, gavroche does not seem to be able to draw any sort of a regular crowd. also unfortunately, i believe the prices for their wines are too high. for example, most wines by the glass are $9 or more for very common ordinary wines. this is a shame, insulting & off-putting. the chef has an excellent pedigree, but the main course i tried, the coq au vin, was disappointing, & i have been reluctant to order other mains. the pate, on the other hand, as entree, was excellent. i have visited this restaurant many times & this saddens me because i truly believe this could be an excellent go-to bistro that is geographically well located. its difficult to criticize directly, so i post here. the chef/owner is a wonderful chef, but appears to have lost a half-step & needs to regain that step. the co-owner is a wonderful, enchanting french woman, who has her heart in the right place. i hope these two can look objectively at their bistro & address some of these issues affecting their performance enabling a place, like this, to survive the demanding nyc clientele. if not, i fear, these types of enterprises will fall by the wayside - good intentions, but faulty execution!!

this topic HAS appeared previously in different guises, but i never get tired of the subject, for selfish reasons, i.e., i'm always in search of. so here goes: agree with bux re: le quinze, oddly, they don't seem to care - weird. best of the lot (pour moi): landmarc - not technically a bistro, but pretty darn close. balthazar/pastis - technically brasseries, but no one seems to differentiate in nyc. gavroche - very bistro, but unfortunately their wines are marked up too much. i wish they would get the hint, but i doubt they ever will. le gigot - reluctant to include, but qualifies, just barely. orsay & la goulue - expensive, snobbish, but beautiful, & the food is good. quatorze bis - again, not technically french, or a bistro, but perhaps the closest nyc rendition. believe the oft-touted raoul's is way past its halycon days, & living on its glorious past. touristy, cramped, expensive - why go? the raoul brothers no longer go, nor do the starlets!! bandol, la tour, brasserie julien, le clown, jacques brasserie - what is the difference between these, other than proximity? so-so food, so-so wines, so-so atmosphere. what does makes a bistro, a bistro, in nyc?? with due credit, someone else here elequently stated the following, with a couple of my additions: 1. if 1 can close their eyes, & almost believe they are sitting in a parisian bistrot. 2. warm & cozy with french musique @ low volume, in the background. lighting, not too bright, not too dim; lace curtains. 3. the classic bistro dishes - duh! 4. a french wine list with reasonably priced bar à vin wines, i.e., beaujolais, alsace, provence, loire, etc... also agree with bux re: should be more bottles vs. wines by the glass (a la Landmarc). AND, someone should know that regardless of wine by the glass or by the bottle, reds should be served at less than 70F!!!, & whites should be served warmer than ice-cold!!! & when an ice bucket is provided, it should be filled with ice AND water, to the top, without having to ask. 5. several french-speaking personal, & should have a french chef/owner & preferably a french hostess. 6. should have french on the "la addition": merci, à bientôt, etc... i.e., its in the details that count. 7. know what french apéritifs are & how to serve are there any faux-bistros in nyc that have all of the above? if so, i have NOT found. quite frankly, its pretty sad that the most exciting, interesting, cosmopolitan city in the world ,that also has a fairly large french population does not have a "real" honest-to-goodness bistrot, but many fakes!!!! my vote would have to go to la goulue for the closest, but its really too chi-chi & somewhat geographically undesirable to really be a go-to "neighborhood" bistro!!! balthazar, although a brasserie, is a good candidate BUT, also tough geographically, unless one is lucky enough to live in SoHo. unfortunately though, the wines are grossly overpriced, its too touristy, & one cannot just walk in & expect to be seated, either at a table or at the bar, but nevertheless, it is always fun!

may be selected costco's. the 1 off the LIE exit 62 was not selling the solis maestro

how many here think wine prices in restaurants are marked up too high relative to the restaurant's cost*? & if so, by how much (in general)? recognize the obvious, in that a 4 star's mark-up, some would say, is justified - vs. - a NYC two-star restaurant's mark-up. i'll start: except for those, a la Landmarc, that have greatly reduced their wine prices to reasonable, the others approach the ridiculous to the "i can't believe how high these prices are" what's fair? i do believe there is no set rule, but common sense should dictate - vs - a way-out-of-line profit margin, regardless of the quality of the restaurant. yes, a 4 star that carries a large inventory has leeway. the 2 star, with much less inventory of average wines, somehow believes they are entitled to rip their customer's lungs out. i know this is probably too extreme for most, but i'm sick of these ridiculous mark-ups on mediocre & easy to purchase wines. unless i'm dining out in a restaurant, regardless of its quality, that has reasonable prices; i have taken to simply not ordering wine. does the restaurant get the hint? i doubt it. but, quite frankly the roast chicken that cries out for a delicious red burgundy, doesn't taste so terrible with ice tea, & i now purchase excellent wines at sherry-lehmann to drink with dinner at home. *by cost, i am assuming a wholesale price(?) & btw, that also includes not paying $5 for a Bud, $8 for a Jack Daniels straight up, etc...in restaurants anymore. these mark-ups are even more egregious than the wine mark-ups. for example, if I can buy a case of Bud at an easily reached beer warehouse for roughly 60cents/can - vs - $5 in most restaurants = "only" an 8x mark-up!!! makes the 3-4x wine mark-ups a great "deal", n'est-ce pas

ummmm at that rate, we should see these "HUGE" price reductions in NYC restaurants by 2020

hachette atlas of french wines & vineyards, edited by pascal riberau-gayon 2nd ed. 2000 ← ← ENJOY

thanks very much. minor correction, i know u meant to say "cassis" instead of "kir"

thanks to all the excellent replies. much appreciated in clearing up the Bx - vs. - Burgundy land issue.

any thoughts as per my question?

that's classic i assume you are referring to shun lee west on W 65th? shun lee WEST, not the awful shun lee PALACE on the eastside, may be the best chinese restaurant in the city, & to characterize as boring signifies a lack of familiarity with the varied number of interesting selections on their menu ranging from mild-to-spicy; or using another criteria - every nite, 7 nites a week, 4 weeks a month, 12 months a year, year-after-year; shun lee has a filled restaurant with both regulars, & newcomers who ALL seem to turn into regulars. to even compare with saigon grill is particularly odd, these 2 are not in the same chinese ballpark. additionally, the much EG- touted grand sichian is very good, but not in the same league as shun lee west! ← Jesus christ! I am assuming you like this place. You are right i am mistaken, I had only been to the Sun Lee cafe, the attachment to Shun Lee. At this place i had the dim sum, and found the dim sum to be very boring and overpriced. However, it is too far get delivery to my girls place.. Also in terms of the menu at shun lee i really dont like that type of stuffy chinese food. Something i never find in china. Would you compare the type of cuisine close to the food at mr chow or chin chin? Cause i hate both those places. ← your assumption is correct. as a matter-of-fact, went to shun WEST again, sat nite at 8:30, packed as usual. &, i must say, another excellent meal. they are expensive, but i've given up my rantings about overpriced wine lists & overpriced food. why? because nobody listens & everybody allows these practices to continue, see how everyone flocks. only until these places lose business based on their prices, will this concept sink in, but ny'ers seem price oblivious, & allow these practices to continue. this, btw, is not meant as a criticism of SLW, but a general observation. SLW's prices would have to be compared to comparable upscale restaurants, & in this regard, their prices would be no better, or no worse. as an observation for you, SLW is NOT STUFFY; & as to the cafe, haven't been in quite a while, prefer the restaurant; however, i do recall "WE" enjoyed the cafe for what it is, & did not find it boring. not sure what your criteria is when looking for chinese, but as u say " shun lee is too far for delivery for u"; shanghai is too far for me lastly, & i assume u may find odd, but i never liked chin chin's food which i thought vastly overrated; & mr. chow's too pretentious (for me).

addendum: as i understand it from reliable sources, the original Palm is the ONLY manhattan steakhouse still serving dry-aged steaks, all the others serve wet-aged!! & supposedly, many of the other premium steakhouses around NYC, claim dry-aged, but in actuality serve wet-aged to their customers who mostly can't tell the difference. quote: daniel: "I often go to pietros with my one friend who is a garmento.. This place is still a huge hangout for the garment industry.. The food is excellent, from the italian to the steak. Love the shells a la nat. Homemade biscotti. Havent been to the old location, but this place is packed regulars nightly." add: the regulars at the old Pietro's were the Wall St crowd, coming up from downtown. obviously, before many firms moved to midtown.

question: the article, referred to above, btw thanks, mentions buying both a Montrachet wide-mouthed (VC 416/97 7 3/8" 21 1/8oz) & a Chablis narrower-mouthed (VC 416/5 7 3/4" 12 3/8oz) for a "good" set, according to the author. however, would not the vinum classic (VC) chardonnay glass (confusingly the same as the above Chablis glass) be the most logical. as per georg riedel, when questioned which glass he would select if he could only select one -"it would be the chardonnay vinum classic". if one was SO SERIOUS about using the "proper" glass, then could use the burgundy red for both reds & montrachets??

actually, "if" i remember correctly the chateau was bought by either LVMH for their prestige wine & spirits division, or its principal, bernard arnault personally; by buying up enough shares to challenge the family in a contested proxy fight.

merci beaucoup

is it not true that to qualify for a bona fide pizza "joint" is to have a honest-to-goodness coal-fired brick oven or a wood-fired brick oven?? secondly, if true, then is not Lombardi's the only one left in Manhattan? apologize if this is been discussed ad infinitum...

2nd that re: Pietro's. last meal was too long ago, but i remember an excellent steak with a real bona fide caesar's salad prepared at the table. very old style, but not shy about the prices. actually the 43rd st location does not compare to the original location which had a huge amount of ambiance as well as great steaks. in moving, it lost both much of its clientele & its rakiskness. also, in all fairness, this was during the advent of many additional steakhouses in NYC, fragmenting Pietro's regulars. Pietro's was very similar to 2 other old-time Italian steakhouses: the original Palm (before the franchising) but still here. & Joe & Rose's, no longer. addendum: as i understand it from reliable sources, the original Palm is the ONLY one still serving dry-aged steaks, all the others serve wet-aged!! & supposedly, many of the other premium steakhouses around NYC, also serve wet-aged to their customers who mostly can't tell the difference.

i have always read to buy a "decent" bourgogne rouge, one must spend at least $50. however, i can't resist what "appears" to be a bargain: the 2001 Bourgogne Curvée St.-Vincent from Vincent Girardin - whose family has been producing wines in Santenay, the second-to-last village (Maranges) at the southernmost end of the Côte de Beaune, for 11 generations!! i know this is only a simple Bourgogne Controlee, but for $14.99 (marked down from $17.99), i had to try. one only learns from experience. i thought it had a fairly metallic (?) aftertaste, with very little bouquet. has anyone else tried? &, any thoughts as to a widely sold bourgogne rouge from the Côte de NUITS that doesn't break the pocketbook?? 2nd bottle, actually the 1st, was a 2000 Clos de la Fortune Bourgogne Aligoté Bouzeron from Domaine Chanzy in Saône-et-Loire with Crème de Cassis de Dijon for making kirs. definitely needed the cassis, but could not get the right proportion. either too much cassis or too little. any thoughts? also, should the cassis be poured 1st, or added after??

in Bordeaux, the Revolution of 1789, blew away the old proprietors, & the "State" confiscated & accounted for changes in ownership. the Church was not a major owner of vineyards. in Burgundy, the Revoution dispossessed the church's enormous holdings with new money replacing until the "Code" increased the fragmentation by requiring, upon a parent's death, to divide the land equally among all the sons. with each new generation, more fragmentation. ex. the vineyards of Clos Vougeot (noted above) are only 50 hectares, but have 77+ landowners, apparently related thru the generational owners. so, it seems, that because the vineyards of Bordeaux were NOT principally owned by the Church, it was able to escape the fragmentation that Burgundy was subjected to. whew!! if anyone has anything to add, please do.

?em esucxe (Greetings from Charlotte. North Carolina.) ← i say that with all due respect to the 1 & only ms. kpurvis

jgould: thanks, however, it was due to the code napoleon (1804), not the french revolution of 1789, that broke up the great land estates/vineyards of burgundy by enforcing the code, which required the estate to be split among all heirs, thereby breaking up these large holdings into many smaller ones. hence, the small little vineyards in burgundy vs. the large vineyards in bordeax. prior to the code, the estate usually passed, in full, to the designated heir. my question/inquiry is why weren't the large land estates/vineyards also broken up & subdivided among ALL the heirs in bordeaux?? busboy: I think you are incorrect. I believe that the reason Burgundy vinyards are so maddeningly subdvided has nothing to do with splitting the vines up amongst various heirs of individual owners I believe it was seized by the state and given over to the peasants. The 80-plus owners of Clos Vougeot are not the many descendants of one owner, they are the descendants of the original 80 peasants who got a row or so of vines back in the 1790s. However, now my inner wonk is awakened, and I will try to hunt down somebody with credentials who can support my, and look forward to hearing similarly authoritative word from you. jgould: ummm... that make sense; however, it does "appear" that the split up stems from the napoleonic code of 1804 (?). i may be incorrect, that's why i'm asking. if the above is was true, then bordeaux would have also been split similiarly, n'est-ce pas???? will try to do the same, but so far i have been unsuccessful. cannot find a site or book that refers to this question directly.

hachette atlas of french wines & vineyards, edited by pascal riberau-gayon 2nd ed. 2000

My understanding is that, first, many of the vinyards had been given over to the church, through the benificense of wealthy landowners trying to ensure an eternity in Heaven, so they were a ripe target for the revolutionaries who were virulently anti-cleric. And, second, Burgundy was both much closer to Paris and more politically active/threatening than Bordeaux - the Dukes of Burgundy having historically been very powerful and loathe to submit to Paris -- so the revolutionary government was more eager to ingratiate themselves to the locals and to attack the entrenched aristocracy; liberating the vinyards allowed them to do both. ← thanks, however, it was due to the code napoleon (1804), not the french revolution of 1789, that broke up the great land estates/vineyards of burgundy by enforcing the code, which required the estate to be split among all heirs, thereby breaking up these large holdings into many smaller ones. hence, the small little vineyards in burgundy vs. the large vineyards in bordeax. prior to the code, the estate usually passed, in full, to the designated heir. my question/inquiry is why weren't the large land estates/vineyards also broken up & subdivided among ALL the heirs in bordeaux??

no historians here????