joesan

The menu above looks nice but nowhere near as avant garde as the one before with the Molecular Gastronomy Greatest Hits. (Also could "Bacon and Eggs" be like Heston's? Now that would be an interesting one!)

Reachej - we're singing off the same hymn book. FG - I now understand your nuance and we're back on the one true shining path of accord. Except maybe I don't quite agree about those who plagiarise seldom needing to.

Mmm...looks like we just have to agree to disagree on this one. I can't see that theres anyway that it can be harder to copy than create. Does this mean the copyist is more talented than the originator?

Steven - the Proust thing was a little joke - it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. But I can't agree with your premise though. I think you are not differentiating between craftsmanlike cooking and truly creative cooking. I agree that when you look at the "he who must not be named"' examples he is a good craftsman and is able to copy the dishes to a high standard. And that takes some skill I agree. Quite a lot in fact to get them looking so passably close to the originals. But as I said earlier it must de facto take more skill to both come up with the concept of the dish and be able to craft it. I can see that you probably mean that good skills would be required to replicate but I cannot agree that that could ever be better than to come up with the original ideas and then execute them. To me that is the difference between good craftsman like practitioners (of which there are legion) and true artists (of which there are considerably less).

I think I'd have to agree. It's manifestly easier to just replicate something. To copy something you need the technical skill. To create it you need the technical skill Plus creativity, vrtuousity etc. If you followed the FG's argument to its logical conclusion if I copy Recherche a la Temps Perdu out faithfully enough I can trump Marcel Proust. (That's a joke )

I'm just wondering where THIS particular definition came from. (I guess Stan Brakhage doesn't make movies, either.) ← Yes I think that is pretty wide of the mark too. I've eaten at the Fat Duck and I can assure that not only is it a restaurant but it's a damn fine one too. And no you do not go home in the least hungry, in fact you go home with a satisfied smile and a full belly...

Nice one, Fat Guy!

Debayser - its not a kangaroo court - it's a discussion of the values and implications of wholesale reproduction of other chefs dishes without attribution. That's what these forums are for - people are entitled to their opinions and may voice them freely. He quite literally has done it. I am sure he is not stupid, a little foolish maybe...

Inventolux - I really respect the work that you've done, admire your ambition, and I like elements of your philosophy but I can't help thinking that others (perhaps not you) may be able to do untold damage to cuisine if great inroads are made into patenting various types of food techniques. I suppose in a way I am really thinking of a scenario where the patent office allows patently (sic) ridiculously obvious processes analagous to things such as one click shopping or methods for going through a hierarchical file structure to be locked down. For example I have seen a patent on a way to cut a chicken into portions that is exactly the method used by millions of people to portion a chicken for hundreds of years. Obvious aspects of prior art seem to ignored by the APO and result in ridiculous limitations for all involved in the industries concerned. Of course you deserve a right to the fruits of your intellectual endeavours and it seems to me you would go down this route for the right reasons but what of those who would not? I wouldn't be surprised to see the APO give out a patent for "altering the taste of a foodstuff using heat". Is there also an argument that you may well make more money by openly sharing as in an Open Source Environment? Plenty of other leading chefs seem to do so and have done for years.

I think the question is one of degree and intent. To borrow a technique or expand upon an idea is fine, in fact it brings the art forward and benefits everyone. Also to do a "tribute" dish occassionally is okay as long as there is full attribution. However to wholesale lift 17 or so dishes from other chefs without any credit is just dishonest and is counter to the good of both the chef community and to diners. What saddens me is (going by looks alone) it looks like the chef does have some talent. It's a shame that he didn't do his own thing because then he would be more of an artist than a faithful replicist. ...and one last plea - please, please, please keep the American Patent office and the Patent Lawyers well away from the kitchen. You only have to look at how the IT business and the internet has been crippled by insane patents on the most basic systems actions to see what a bad idea that avenue has been. It would kill creativity and increase sharp practice. Thank god Europe rejected the proposal to implement similar absurdities here

You ordered a Cider and Blackcurrant - in Maze! Now that's hip...

Gareth - that's very funny. Made me laugh out loud.

Pedro - thanks for the heads up. Your web skills are better than mine - I didn't scroll down! Am off to Books for Cooks (in London) tomorrow to see if they have it in stock. What an unexpected treat.

Looks like it is in Spanish only at the moment. Wonder when the release date is?

Couldn't agree more... Sizzleteeth where are you?

Does anyone remember a time before foams? I can't tell you how much I am looking forward to this book being published in English...

Okay now I agree with just about everything (see below). I like the packaging (in all senses of that word) for me the packaging is part of the product. I am not given to idolatry but I admire the imagination and creativity of the man. I don't think others don't / haven't / won't do it but Mr A does it more consistently,more inventively and more deliciously than the others. Okay now the disagreement - a big Mac is not delicious. Happy iconoclasm! PS - like your food photos on your site

I was in Sketch the other day - entertaining some "out of town" friends from Italy who are involved in the fashion world. They loved it. It is still pretty cool but nowhere near as cool as last year (obviously). Having said that it is still a lot cooler than most of the other place mentioned upthread with the exception of Bistroteque. BTW the food was pretty good - I had to have two helpings of a reconstructed potato thing - basically a potato mash in a raviolo skin underneath some ubiquitous (but truly delicious) foam. Also I think it is pretty good value considering the setting. Unfortunately they've changed the decor quite a bit and it all looks a bit "punky" now. Brilliant DJ - go.

Pedro - I completely agree with you - it's all about the food. To me there's some intellectual interest in the techniques but if it doesn't taste good - well what's the point? Since I am a visual person I also take great delight in the way the El Bulli dishes look too, I think one also eats with one's eyes but that is a whole another argument. Sizzleteeth - I almost completely agree with you! I just feel that there has to be some credit given for the incredible dishes coming from El Bulli. Many of the building blocks were around before but they were put together synergistcally at El Bulli (also I might add at The Fat Duck). That deserves some admiration. Trust me I am not advocating hero worship (in fact I am really anti that kind of thing) but also there's no need to cut down the tall poppies either. Having said that I think there's more we agree on than disagree on.

Sizzleteeth - nice piece - you make some good, cogent points. Hurrah for the middle way. My point is - in a website devoted to food and foodies, an interest second only to oenophilism in giving rise to purple prose you are definitely going to get some enthusiastic souls, well,enthusing. Debating, disagreeing too for sure. But that is what you are going to get. Maybe some peoples' writing style could be called "pretentious" but so what - they should be allowed that in an enthusiasts forum. Often the epithet pretentious is used when the critic dislikes polysyllabism, but if I want monosyllabism there are plenty of places on the web to get it. I like my eGullet fun, light, and heavy, serious, and frivolous and I don't feel the need to judge something pretentious or not. Your points about FA not being universally known are patently true but surely this is an informed forum, no-one is asking how to boil an egg, and if a group of people want to discuss culinary minutiae I think this might just be the place. It is for me and I love it. I like Adria's work - when I read his book, I can truly admire his creativity and inventiveness. To me it’s not terribly relevant that some of the chemicals he uses have been used in food processing before. In a reductio ad absurdum that's a little like saying "this dish is not new - its been modified by a heat source and that's been done before". It's a little about the context yes (gastronomic vs. industrial) but also more importantly about the synergy of his techniques and ingredients. The presentation, the artistry, the inspiration. Especially when you've tasted it (which, I note, many of his detractors haven't). There is not much new under the sun especially in the world of cuisine but you can probably fairly say that much of what is nearly new comes from a certain atelier in Spain. A popular way of shutting down debate on this topic is saying "it's only food" or "only cooking". Sure it is only food. Michelangelo’s David is only stone. One can have a transcendent experience with food similar to what one has with Art with a capital A. For me I probably have that experience more often with food than with Art. But that's just me. Your mileage may vary. As for the Frank Gehry simile, well I'd prefer Tadao Ando, but in my opinion Mr Adria is every bit as influential in his sphere as Mr Gehry is in his, probably more so. So it may seem a little immodest but it’s probably fairly accurate. I am not a fan of false modesty and in Mr Adria's position I'd be tempted to be a whole lot more immodest than he is. Unfortunately it's hard in this type of forum to convey a tone of friendly debate but that's what I am attempting. I'd sum it up by saying let people post how they like here, and about what they like, and if it doesn't appeal there are hundreds of more prosaic venues out there on the web.

Cathar - 5 out of your 6 posts are about El Bulli and the language that our fellow egulleteers use in their posts. What upsets you so much about one bunch of people who are truly creative, and another bunch of people who like to write about those truly creative people and their own passions? That surely is one of the points of this fine website.

I think it's kind of funny how heated some of these debates can get. Hey if some chefs want to try new ways of doing things, or even re-discovering old ways of doing something, great - we all win - at least those who are interested in moving things forward do. Also its not a competition - sous vide is just another technique, you are still allowed to roast the hell out of something if you want to. Don't get annoyed if others want to put stuff in a bag and cook it a low temperature for a while and then sear it. Its different, sure, but its still cooking. Personally I love sous vide in the main - I think its good to push the boundaries a little and see what comes out. Surely that's what being a creative chef is? Anyway I join the call for all the electronic and mechanical geniuses to come up with a MacGyver/Homebrew version. Bring 'em on.

You're probably right about the mainstream (but who cares about them ). Certainly Adria at El Bulli and Blumenthal at the Fat Duck use them and you don't get much more high-end than those two. Thinking about it maybe there's something about the MG boys in that they take new approaches to cooking and are embracing the new ways of doing things like Induction. Not that induction is that new but you know what I mean.

Thanks Dan - didn't see your post till now. I ended up making them doused in a little sake and butter and grilling for 4 minutes with some Parsley - superb. However luckily I saved some back for the freezer so I am going to make your delicious sounding recipe this week!

I have a few different units including one that cost only about £60. Even with that unit I can get a really good sear on meat or fish. Trust me you don't need a perfectly flat pan (many pans are very slightly concave and expand flat on heating). In an ideal world you'd have a gas burner for the feel of it (think manual transmission versus automatic in a car) but I do feel that you can do everything you can do with an induction that you can do with gas. You obviously can't burn anything with a flame, e.g. char a pepper skin, but just about everything else is fair game. Like I said earlier many top end kitchens use more and more induction hobs. I have also regularly made hollandaise with mine. In fact the units can go so low and consistent that you can melt chocolate with them without the use of a double burner - try that with gas. Obviously different units will have different capabilities so shop around a little. In Europe a good portable unit is made by Berghoff (about £60) and a good premium domestic by De Dietrich (about £600). The De Dietrich I use has 17 levels of power so it is pretty controllable.