joesan

Tony - El Bulli do a consomme tagliatelle carbonara, I posted the method for making the noodles earlier on in this thread. You could make the noodles with parmesan "water" rather than consomme. You make the parmesan water by taking equal weights of parmesan and water. Cut the parmesan up and dissolve it in the boiling water. Let cool and then push through a sieve. You can then add Agar to this water according to the consomme noodle method I posted above. Is that the kind of thing you are after?

Hi iii_bake, Tried again but using Firefox this time. Everything came out perfectly. However it still doesn't work with the Safari browser on the Mac. Really nice technique - I am looking forward to trying it. Well done!

Hi iii_bake, You would say "cut open" or more likely "peel". I didn't know that you could get seedless pomegranate - I am going to look for some today. I tried your link, because I would love to now how to peel these, but there is just an empty page. Can you check what is wrong?

I thought it may help to outline how el Bulli make their consomme tagliatelli. Should be the same basic technique for parmesan noodles using parmesan "water". 500g Consomme 7.5g Agar agar powder 1. Bring to the boil the consomme and agar-agar, whisked together. 2. Pour a 0.2cm layer into a 60x40cm tray. 3. Set in fridge for 3 hours minimum then cut into strips 0.5cm wide with a pastry cutter. 4. Reheat the noodles as you choose.

Make a decadently yummy salad - Boil them for 8 minutes. Allow to cool a little and then shell. Serve them cut into quarters with some cold french beans in a walnut oil vinaigrette. If you have some cooked pancetta as well even better. Delicious.

Digijam - that's funny and yup it was my girlfriend that brought it up with me. Ever the pragmatist... Nathan - don't know how much electricity costs here in London but I will be cooking the next joint at 55C in the oven in the interests of science and gastronomy regardless! Just not letting the girlfriend see...

Digijam - thanks for the clarification - I only had a hazy idea where it was from myself. I think that it's quite an exciting development if it works doing LTLT in a domestic oven since it would give access to sous-vide type cooking to the majority of people who don't have the specialised equipment. Just a thought I wonder if when the 24hr electricity price is factored in if we'd be cheaper buying filet mignon!

Yeah, for sure it's a tough cut - it's normally used in daubes etc. I think I'll try it for 24 hours next time. The roasting bag was a good tip - I think it really helped with the moisture retention.

It's sometimes called Topside I think. It's basically after the Rump, at the top of the buttock.

Well I tried roasting the meat joint that I mentioned earlier in the thread. I roasted it at 55C in a roasting bag (as recommended by Nathan) to approximate a sous vide environment. I cooked it for 7 hours. The colour was a little darker than I would normally like but could still definitely be described as rare(ish). It was pretty moist still. However the big problem was that it was completely tough. Relatively tasty but far too tough to enjoy. What do you think cook for longer next time? 7 hours already seems a pretty long time but it was a thick (10cm or so) piece of meat.

55C is not as rare as I would like but given that my oven will either do 50C or 55C - I think I will have to settle for 55C. Hopefully the tenderizing effect of the LTLT will offset any drying out of the higher internal temperature. I will be serving it cold anyway with an Italian salsa verde so that should also help.

Nathan (and Edsel) - thanks for the tips. Going out to look for some Roasting bags. I thought an internal temperature of 55C might be overdone but I will give it a try. I'm thinking of trying about 7 hours. Will report back.

Calling Nathan and all other Low temp guys! I don't have access to sous vide equipment at the moment so I am cooking at Low Temp for a Long Time (LTLT) in my oven. I want to cook a joint of beef ("Silverside" in the UK) that weighs about 0.82kg. My oven is very stable and works in 5C increments. I like Heston Blumenthal's recipe that involves cooking the meat at 75C until the core reaches 52C (takes about 2 hours to get there). However this cut of beef is never quite tender enough with this method. My question is - can I leave the meat longer at a lower temperature to get a better result by breaking down more of the meat fibres? My oven goes as low as 50C, 55C, 60C, 65C etc. and it has an accurate internal temp probe to judge when the correct internal temperature is reached. What time / temp combination do you think would be optimal?

Fabien this is exactly what strikes the fear of god into me. I can't see why it shouldn't worry anyone who is a food lover as opposed to an industry pundit. Although in my opinion even an industry pundit should see the damage potential in extending copyright to the culinary industry. It's insane times 10.

I think the truth is we need a mixture of both old and new. We get something different from each. To go back again to my Italian example I have a friend who lives in Emilia Romagna. Every time I visit her I get to taste the most amazing Ravioli - they have been making the same ravioli in her area literally for centuries and they are truly delicious -they are ravioli perfected. I love them and can have them the 4 or 5 times a year that I visit with continued pleasure. She however is sick of the perfect ravioli because the truth of the matter is that they are served all the time and there is not a great deal of other pasta that is served where she lives other than these perfect local examples. She longs to try Heston's Snail Porridge or some other Molecular Gastronomy marvel for some novelty or variety. For my part the creations of the new chefs in the MG world are really a passion of mine but I can't help but feel if I was only allowed one type of cuisine for the rest of my life the Italian rural one, which is centuries old, would be hard to beat for satisfaction. There's life in the old cannon yet.

Chris, Gastro Nomos - I have to say I agree with your views here. Sizzle - boy you can swear good - but I have to agree that there is a lot of prior art out there. I can't see any real benefit coming to the culinary industry from the well-intentioned but misguided take up of these kind of laws. Quite the opposite to encouraging creativity I feel certain that they would stifle it. Cooking today seems to be more than ever to be taking "greatest hits" from all over the place and combining them into a synergistical greater whole. This is different from more classical days of cuisine where the cannon was largely stable for decades at a time. Or even today in Italy where the cuisine is predominantly the same as it has been for decades or centuries even. Today's chefs are more like the music samplers of our time taking little pieces of pre-existing creativity and adding their own flair and inspiration to come up with something new and better. Even those at the very pinnacle of creativity are building on pre-conceived techniques and bases on the whole. To me there is no denigration in this - it takes a very talented person to come up with the next steps forward. I'd really like to have some idea of the relative support for the idea of copyright in cooking. It seems that there a three vocal supporters here - one chef (inventolux), one businessman (nick) and one interested observer (fat guy). On the whole it seems the rest of us don't think its a good idea. Is that a fair representation? Or is there a silent majority out there who would support it.

Steven - the tone of my last post was a little terse for which I apologise. I do feel strongly about this but I am not intransigent and am open to reasoned arguement. You haven't persuaded me yet though, not by a long chalk. I genuinely would be interested to hear some more chefs come out and say if they are in favour of it or not. I am not a professional chef and neither are you. We're informed observers at best so perhaps it is presumptious of us to opine on this. It would be interesting to hear more from the industry. My biggest concern is that creativity would be hindered by your proposal. Can you address that concern?

Right - just a hunch - but I don't think a correct one as evidenced by the singular lack of vocal supporters. Don't misunderstand my position. I am not saying that what these chefs do/create isn't worthy. Really and truly my position is quite the opposite. In fact few things matter more to me in life. It's very high up my hierarchy of needs. What I am saying is that what you are proposing isn't needed, wanted or beneficial in toto to the art, and in fact would be counterproductive to the advancement of cuisine.

Other than Inventolux I don't really hear many chefs asking for what you are trying to give them. What makes you think that they want what you are proposing?

That's correct. It would also be whining if I agreed with it. We should do what's right, not what's easy. Yes there's a lot of prior art and influence. Big deal. If anything, that just makes it harder to document the creation of an original work. The "it's too hard" contingent should be happy about that. It means there won't be a lot of culinary copyrights. Most chefs just don't operate at the level of creation, so we won't have to worry about them. So there should be no copyright protection for art, literature or music either? ← My point is that calling it "whining" is unnecessarily pejorative to those peoples opinions and strikes a tone that is not required. I am not saying it's too hard - I am saying it is not a good thing to do. Copyright for the other arts - perhaps yes. I think the super-extensibility of copyright can cause more damage than it is worth. There are many groups now arguing for a reigning in of copyright rather than an extension of it. But really i don't think we should go off at too many tangents here Art, Literature and Music have some parallels but are not close enough too use in this arguement without leading us down some blind alleys. I do also subscribe to the view that the good chefs do share - at least most of the ones at the top of their game do. And they seem to do well financially (judging by their cars anyway - Ferraris etc. ) Certainly those that publish get their rightful, and in IMO well deserved, kudos.

Steven - it's not "whining" just because it is an opinion contrary to yours. I happen to think that cooking by its nature will not be as suitable for locking down under copyright as a) there is so much prior art b) most of the things we collectively admire has been built upon foundations set by others. If they hadn't allowed their findings to be used we wouldn't have got to the next level. I believe every chef should get his dues by way of attribution, respect, kudos and reputation for what he/she has done. But as I said earlier I believe that the culinary diaspora will be the poorer for what you are proposing. Certain processes and equipment do seem to me to be true inventions and as such protectable but, while I don't go as far as Sizzleteeth (seldom do ), I think most of it has been done before in the food processing industries. I think what comes out of the best kitchens truly does approach "art" but I don't think it needs to have the protection (in some minds - restriction in mine) of a slew of legal devices on it. In fact I truly think it would hamper the provision of that art. Seems to me this arguement is coming down to those who see the practice of gastronomy as a business and those who see it as civilising endeavour of mankind that is too important and fundamental to have the restrictions of commerce placed upon it.

Inventolux - you seem like a good guy with good intentions. I'm a good guy with good intentions but I seem to have a somewhat opposing view to you. I make a good living and I'd like you to do the same. So I'd like some education. Here's what I am scared of. I am not in the food business. I love food and I love good restaurants. I love "Molecular Gastronomy" and other haute inventiveness. I also love a simple grilled sardine. I've watched with horror as some predatory legal practices have moved to Europe. For example "Ambulance chasing". The result of this is that, for example, schools daren't take their pupils on educational outings for fear of crippling litigation if someone should slip. The kids miss out on the fun educational trips overseas that I enjoyed and enriched my life. You seem to have a social conscience and I wouldn't think that you would approve of that outcome either. In other spheres aggressive patenting of, IMO, obvious processes has led to lockdown of beneficial technologies for use by the masses. I worry not that you'll get a patent for say printing food but that techniques that would enrich our culinary repertoire would be missing entirely unless chefs pay a culinary ransom. I worry that the holding of patents will result in a net loss for the culinary diaspora as a whole. Can you allay my fears?

I don't quite know why but the idea of a bunch of lawyers hammering some restaurant over a copyrighted dish really disgusts me. Locking down food and new dishes seems just wrong and contrary to the spirit of gastronomy. I'm not even sure it would be that good for business. If you look to the past those chefs who are most successful have been free with their recipes and to the betterment of mankind.

...and another one is called Mo Mo. One of London's formerly hip places is a little place called Momo.

In the Age article there's a quote from an owner of some restaurants, one of which is called Livebait. Interesting unique name. Oh no hold on... there's a chain of restaurants in London that have been here for years. They're called - you guessed it - Livebait. Sincerest form again for Melbourne?