ludja

I don't completely understand your emotional and unrelated response to the information in the article, John. You quoted my entire post, but are there some specific points in the article that you agree or disagree with or a have a comment on? This discussion is primarily interested in noting and exploring how portion sizes and caloric loads have increased, particularly at chain restaurants. You may legitmately not be interested in this topic or assign it any significance but some of us are interested and do think it is important. It is not even immediately relevant for the purposes of this discussion whether you, I or anybody consider obesity to be on the rise or a problem. I won’t mention the other red herrings you included in your post, except one. I think you are also clouding the discussion by continuously bringing up agendas and conspiracies. It is useful to consider these potential influences only if the data itself are in question, but I think much of the "data" in this particular discussion are right there on the restaurant menus; namely, single portion dishes with calories and fat totals that exceed normal daily guidelines and that are very commonly found on chain restaurant menus. As an aside, I don't agree with your analysis of the information that was presented in Pollan’s article as reducing to “consumers being simply tricked by Madison Avenue". It is not a simple topic, and I think the article discusses some of the different economic, psychological and historical factors that are involved.

When I go home there is a plethora of great cooking from my Mom and nice trips to New England pizzerias, home-style Polish restaurants, etc. My "challenge" comes when my Dad wants to go to his favorite Chinese restaurant that he really loves! Now, he *has* enjoyed great Chinese food on visits out West, but this is the best Chinese restaurant he's found at home. I just grin and bear it if I can't change our plans by saying I've just been dying for pierogi's and blintzes or East coast pizza that I can't easily get where I live now... The funny twist is that my Mom isn't as big a fan of Chinese food while he knows that I am. So, he particularly lobbies for going to this restaurant when I'm home! His palpable enjoyment is a small price to pay and ends up turning a "so-so" food experience into a great meal with my father.

I think some interesting points are brought up in an article by Michael Pollan regarding the phenomena of supersizing--which applies not just to the supersize options offered at fast food joints, but also to the evolution of "regular" portion sizes, especially at chain restaurants to their current proportions. It makes sense that these concepts do apply to chain restaurants to a larger extent than they do to independent restaurants due to the economies of scale available to the former. The article is “Fat Land: Supersizing America” by Michael Pollan. click I think it's best to read the article but I've tried to capture the main points below. (A more complete treatment of this phenomena and how it fits into the even larger and more genernal picture of the U.S. food supply and its production is given in his book, The Omnivore's Dilemma. The industry term for this conundrum of being able to increase profits when bounded by a given number of consumers and the amount of food that they can eat in one day is "fixed stomach". In The Omnivore's Dilemma Pollan also mentions the term used by economists, "inelastic demand". The article than describes how the concept of supersizing developed as an idea and strategy to sell people more food—given the restraints of psychology and price. The main point is that they found through testing and starting in about the late 1960's that people would be willing to eat more if the individual serving size was increased as opposed to choosing the route of ordering multiple servings. Another point that is discussed is the issue of saiety. That is, how can or will people eat more if they are full? Isn’t that a constant? Studies on saiety show that people when given larger portion sizes will eat up to 30% more than they otherwise would have. (This definately fits with my experience and eating more than I "need to" sometimes is certainly pleasurable. But is this a good way to eat on a regular basis?) This phenomena is described as being related to an “elasticity” in hunger which may well be a good evolutionary advantage. The key is, though, that the advantages of this behavior are found in times where potential famine or low food supply is a possibility and arguably not when food is available twenty four hours a day and seven days a week. Lastly, the article ties in how the decreased cost of manufacturing food permits sellers to increase the price of food relative to the portion size so that they can still make a good profit. Pollan's book also discusses how processed food, including but not restricted to the famous example of corn and corn syrup, critically fit into this cycle. This last point is also fleshed out in a lot more detail in Pollan's book. In any case, reading the article and the book made me think a bit more deeply about the issues raised in this and other threads. How one decides to respond on a personal level to this information and how or if we as a society decide to work to "combat" some of these trends is, I think, a separate issue. Nevertheless, there will be many who will be resistant to even being informed. I also think it is a bit simplistic, once becoming aware of some of these issues, to think that the state and size of food offerings at restaurants (and also on supermarket shelves) is only driven by consumer "choice".

Interesting angle. That is, I hadn't thought of the dish as potentially evolving from a more complex dish in which some elements were dropped. Thanks, Adam! edited to add: I like the imagery that you have pictured for our discussion, hathor!

Thank you for this very interesting and informative post, Catherine. The taste test that Linda Bartoshuk conducts with her and with Jacques Pepin at the end of the article is amazing. (When I took the online "test" linked to at the beginning of the article I came out somewhere between normal and super taster. I love bitter, spicy and complex tastes in food and alcohol though so per Bartoshuk's research I guess I would likely be a non-taster of PROP).

I make mine in a similar fashion per a recipe in The Chez Panisse Menu Cookbook. That is, make the vinaigrette with the herbs, chopped gherkins and capers, shallots and lemon zest then fold in the chopped whites and the chopped yolks of the eggs. I do have some older recipes tin which you add the oil drop by drop to the sieved egg yolks but I haven't tried that method or else made it that way a long time ago. The time is soon coming for sauce gribiche with cold asparagus; one of my favorite springtime and Easter dishes. The Chez Panisse Menu Cookbook suggests the sauce as a topping for grilled endives. That sounds wonderful as well.

This link was available within the original article but here is the direct link to a pdf describing the extreme foods they spoke about in the article: click I'm not as interested in what CSPI's agenda is in publishing this information. Apart from whatever agenda they have, I think the descriptions of the meals and the caloric and fat totals speak for themselves. The Coldstone Creamery example is a very interesting one. They describe how, say 20-25 years ago someone might order a single scoop of ice cream in a regular cone. This type of serving then evolved to include waffle cones which hold much more than the old-fashioned one scoop. Then chocolate-dipped chocolate cones became an option. Now you can order a chocolate-covered waffle cone filled with multiple scoops of ice cream into which candies, chocolates, cake or cookies have been folded in. This type of concoction is equal to the amount of calories in 5 traditional single scoop ice cream cones! A few points I found interesting in this article apart from the generally known facts that "fast food" is fattening. A description of the obscene serving size and caloric and fat content of food being served not in "fast food" restaurants but in sit down chain "family restaurants" that a large number of people in the US patronize each and every week. I thought they also did a good job in describing the caloric and supersize evolution of these dishes as in the Cold Stone Creamery example I paraphrased above. I also thought they gave a great perspective in comparing what equivalent "real food" meals would match the calories and fat of the "Extreme" dishes. It was very illuminating to see that these extreme dishes are actually much higher in calories than regular "food" that would itself not be considered low calorie. (Eg: The chicken broccoli pasta single serving dish being equivalent to two sirloin steak dinners with baked potato and Caesear Salad.)

I found another interesting older Lenten tradition that I was not familiar with that falls on "Rose or Laetare Sunday". Here is a further description from Wikipedia: Rose Sunday It falls on the fourth Sunday of Lent; this year, March 18th. I found some more information here on a website which has extracts from a book written by Maria von Trapp in the mid-fifties. click The book is called "Around the Year" and is a book that celebates the customs and seasons of the Catholic Church's liturgical year including food-related traditions. The section referred to below is under the entry for February 20th. The link gives a recipe for Simmel Cake. This version is a butter cake flavored with lemon and orange zest and currants and filled with a layer of layer of almond paste and covered with an almond flavored icing.

Well, at home we've never gotten past a good baked stuffed lobster or lobster rolls, but I have a fantasy of someday making lobster and scrambled eggs after reading some wonderful descriptions of the dish. There is a nice description in Jamison and Jamison's A Real American Breakfast. Here's a recipe online that looks similar although I'm not sure I'd add the red bell peppers or not. click I picture some wonderful toasted brioche or other bread alongside. I'd also make some lobster stock and lobster butter from the shells. I also have great memories of an Italian-American dish I've had in some North End restaurants in Boston: Lobster Fra Diavolo.

This sounds delicious as do the garnishes of fried plantains and hard boiled eggs mentioned in the link.

When does the season start in terms of measuring rain accumulation and what is the total range of rain you look for this time of year? Are you approaching a "safety zone" where there has been enough rain or late enough in the season? I hadn't realized the peaks were high enough around there for snow. We do have some snow in the Santa Cruz Mountains (~2000-2300 ft) right now but I guess I'm not sure how high the mountains are around Anderson Valley. Is there a reason you wanted snow at lower elevations for the grapes? Thanks!

Thanks for finding that out, Pontormo! I'm going to try and listen to the live webcast tonight but may need to take advantage of accessing it at a later time. This may work better for people located at points East as well given the live broadcast time. Hope to hear people's thoughts if they listen to it tonight or later... It should be interesting for people that shop at Whole Foods and/or that have read Pollan's book. There is lot of interesting content in the open letters. In addition, on Mackey's blog within the Whole Foods web site there are many interesting questions and comments posted by readers. Mackey has taken the time to answer many people's questions in a futher back and forth 'hidden' within the reader's posts.

Remembering a recent and wonderful three course dinner at Canteen in SF, I'd be willing to make the same bet as well! The comparsion leapt to my mind after reading the previous comments.

I think one major difference is that people typically eat a rich multicourse meal at a four star restaurant much less frequently than the type of chain restaurant meals described in the article. It is also much easier for someone to ascertain in a ball park way that they are eating a hugely caloric meal in the one case as opposed to the other. (In any case, I actually wonder if the calories and fat would be larger for a three course meal at a fine dining restaurant as opposed to the "Extreme Meals" offered at these places.) I think it is more interesting to consider why restaurants would even serve a chicken and broccoli pasta dish that weighs in at 2060 calories and 128 g of fat? The calories for this meal are described as the equivalent of two 12-ounce sirloin steaks, two buttered baked potatoes, and two Caesar salads. Something seems off to me. In terms of being tired of hearing or speaking about these things, I guess I'm glad to at least have an idea of the calories and fat hidden in these commonly available examples where a single course provides the entire amount of daily recommended calories and more than twice the fat. I don't know how one would even approach the concept of "moderation" in choosing off this type of menu. The article also discusses movements in some places to require these types of chain restaurants to disclose the caloric load of these meals. Whether or not that is a good way to go is up for discussion and is similar to other ones we've already had on eGullet forums. If the calories and fat content of these "everyday" meal options at chain restaurants were disclosed maybe people would scratch their heads and wonder why these dishes are being served to them and their children.

^ The stats in the article are pretty amazing. Some other "extreme eating" examples in the article: Ruby Tuesday’s “Colossal Burger.” 1,940 calories and 141 grams of fat (equivalent to ~ 5 Quarterpounders from McDonald's) Uno Chicago Grill’s “Pizza Skins Appetizer 2,050 calories, 48 grams of saturated fat, and 3,140 milligrams of sodium Ruby Tuesday’s “Fresh Chicken & Broccoli Pasta.” 2,060 calories and 128 grams of fat (The article says this is equivalent two 12-ounce sirloin steaks, two buttered baked potatoes, and two Caesar salads!) Cheesecake Factory’s “Chris’ Outrageous Chocolate Cake.” 1,380-calorie It’s the (Equivalent to eating two Quarter Pounders plus a large fries—for dessert.) And a fast food example that is surprisingly high in calories: "A venti-sized White Chocolate Mocha and a blueberry scone from Starbucks" 1,100 calories It equivalent to a Burger King bacon double cheeseburger, medium fries, and medium Coke. It is bizarre to me that each of these single dishes has nearly a days worth of calories in it. It is also particularly illuminating albeit stomach churning to see the equivalent amounts of other types of food that equal the calories and fat intake of these extreme chain restaurant dishes. I don't think there is anyone that would guess at the amount of calories hidden in the Chicken and Broccoli Pasta Dish. A Colossal burger equaling five Quarter Pounders? Reading the article I almost felt like I was reading the script of a Saturday Night Live skit. And I love hearty diner food from time to time! I have cut down on restaurant eating when I've wanted to lose weight and I don't typically eat at any of the places listed in the article, but I still found the numbers in this article pretty surprising. To, "Eat food. Less of it. More leafy greens", courtesy of Michael Pollan, add "Severely limit your outings to (chain) restaurants." Not all the items at chain restaurants are of the "extreme" variety but I think they almost always will clock in above the recommended calorie and fat amounts due to a combination of preparation method, ingredients and serving size.

*bump* The live webcast is tonight; 7 pm - 9 pm PST.

John Mackey, CEO of Whole Foods, and Michael Pollan, author of Omnivore's Dilemma (2006), are continuing their open letter discussion in person at a sold out event sponsored by the UC Berkeley School of Journalism, tomorrow, Feb 27, 2007. The good news for those that have don't have tickets is that the event titled, "The Past, Present and Future of Food", will be available as a live webcast. (It may be available for download later as well; that's not clear at this point.) The link to access the live webcast tomorrow evening (7 pm - 9 pm PST) is available here: click Here is information describing the event: We have had some interesting discussion previously on the eGullet forums regarding Mackey's May 2006 open letter to Pollan. This has also included Pollan's June 2006 open letter response and Mackey's subsequent reply. The thread is here: click If you look at the links provided in the quote above you can also go to John Mackey's blog and Michael Pollan's webpage to read the letters. Michael Pollan has a second open letter to Whole Foods on his webpage that he wrote in September 2006. In that letter he invited Pollan to speak at UC Berkeley and to follow that up with an open discussion between the two of them. Mackey accepted and that is the event that will be broadcast tomorrow night. It would be interesting to hear people's comments on the latest exchange of their public dialogue whether you are lucky enough to attend the talk in person or else are able to listen to it on the live webcast tomorrow.

Thanks for the photos, sararwelch! Did you enjoy the desserts and did you end up using a grapefruit upside down cake recipe from online?

I thought of you and your part when I saw that Lives of Others won last night! Did you end of making the Koenigsberger Klopse? That was a great idea; I've always wanted to make them. They sound like a great meatball dish with the anchovy and lemon zest in the meatballs and the accompanying sour cream, lemon, and caper sauce. And how did your get together turn out, sisofdiva2?

This is what I am interested in as well, which prompted the question of comparing Ann Arbor and Champagne-Urbana. People have given lots of good reasons why chains, in general, may be an easier business proposition. There is also an important link as nsxtasy mentioned as to *when* a place has undergone development. I do also think that "where" plays a factor as well and this is not a dig at the "midwest". Each location has its own particular history and challenges in regard to how it evolves with respect to the threat of chain restaurant overload and the death or dearth of independent establishments. I find this a very interesting topic, but apologize if I have contributed to "drifting" the discussion away from the original midwest focus of the thread. There are common issues to be discussed as this is a phenomena to some extent all over different parts of the US, but it seems as if there are also interesting and different issues specific to the midwest (and the different areas within it) as well.

Maybe it would help to have a printout of the rules for the particular airport when going through security. This *might* help resolve small idiosyncrasies encountered with a given official although it probably is not prudent to argue.

I remember reading about pretzels as an old German/Austrian lenten food and found this article: link

Also as mentioned above, how much do you think the existence of older buildings makes a difference? It seems easier to open a unique place with ambiance in a place that has building options other than a front in a strip mall...

The comparison between Ann Arbor and Champagne-Urbana is an interesting one. One might think the demographic would be similar in the two places (midwest, large university town). Do you have any theories why or how they developed differently? I wonder if much of Ann Arbor's food scene developed in the 60's/70's (as did, for example, Berkeley's). I don't know how or if the two campuses/towns differed then or in the aftermath but pehaps that is a reason for the difference. Also, are there more immigrants in one town versus the other? Also, did Ann Arbor embrace farmer's markets earlier than Champagne? (I think that farmer's markets can have a huge impact in this regard. The small downtown of Sunnyvale in the heart of Silicon Valley was literally moribund 15 years ago. Half of the storefronts were closed up. They institiututed a Saturday Farmer's market on the street about that time and since then the street has filled out with independent shops and restaurants. There is still a ways to go, but the difference has been remarkable. Now the town is actually tearing down the neighboring multistory mall filled with chain stores and restaurants and will be rebuilding a new type of open air "mall" that will more closely model the original downtown street (where the market is). I know the new mall will have chain stores, etc but I wonder if there will also be some independent ventures. THis is only one example, but I've heard of a similar transformation underway in Phoenixville, PA in which a weekely farmer's market is helping to bring in and sustain non-chain ventures. As gfron1 mentioned, there also have to be passionate people living in a given area that are committed to create these types of businesses. They may or may not be able to help develop the palate/sophistication of the area with their new business but first you just need people with a vision who want to start and maintain independent shops or restaurants.

Here's a link to Fra' Mani's website: click and a thread on the products started by artisanbaker: Bertolli Charcuterie