Tonyfinch

JD, I have massive problems with Steve's style of argument,not only on this but on other threads too. And doubtless one day I will list them all out for him whether he wants to hear them or not. Having said that, I totally agree with you about Peterpumkino's offensive interjections,which now seem to be bordering on the oafish.

What did we say? What did we say? Brilliant post. Now where the fuck is Manchester?

Scott, I struggle with the whole concept of long tasting menus. I know that they're the thing to have in certain high end restaurants but I react instinctively against them. They always seem to me to be a bit like eating a series of gourmet tapas, which is OK if you want tapas, but it never feels to me like a "proper" meal. When I read accounts by other members of long tasting menus on say the French board I rarely feel that I want to go out and eat that meal,or an equivalent. At Hibiscus it must be popular or Claude wouldn't do it but we went for the carte and had a more satisfying meal than yours sounded like

Simon,we are talking about potatoes here. Good old inoffensive potatoes. They may = carb but they don't =crap

Death by carbs sounds infinitely preferable to that

The inescapable conclusion appears to be that France is the ONLY country that has reached these high technical levels and still stayed in touch with its indigenous cuisine. Restaurants that aspire to these heights in other countries were either French in the first place in all but location or at some point left the culinary roots of the country they were in way behind. And according to Lizzies report on L'Arnsbourg, its happening now in France as well. So,as Robert implies,maybe the link between a country's cuisine and new haute cuisine doesn't exist anywhere anymore and the haute cuisine restaurants like El Bulli and Fat Duck etc. all have far more in common with each other than any of them do with the cuisine of their host country. Therefore even if 3 brilliant high end restaurants opened in italy tomorrow ,it still wouldn't mean that Italian cuisine was any more relevant,merely that they happened to be located in Italy.

Now that IS a serious personal attack!

While accepting that there are a couple of "relevant" restaurants in Spain right now I'm not sure you can argue from that that Spain as a whole is any more "relevant" than Italy. Those restaurants in Catalonia appear to have less to do with Spain and more to do with a kind of pan European culinary avant garde movement. Lizzie's description on the France thread makes it clear that her favourite place on the trip,while brilliant,was not "French",any more than The Fat Duck can be described as British. These restaurants happen to be in these countries but they are not OF these countries in the sense that they say anything about cuisine in general in those countries. And as for countries with an Upper Middle Class. More of them don't have cutting edge restaurants than do. Does Germany have them? Or Austia? How about Norway,Sweden, Denmark?

Excatly. Simon how exactly do you WANT to die? Apart from painlessly and old ,that is.

We know the opposition is seeking help from Bray's Head Spudmeister Heston von Bloominpot and has already bought in a number of foriegn spuds at great expense. We have to make do with home grown talent picked up off the pavement outside the local grrengrocer when they close on Saturday,but knowing Olive at the end of the day she'll just tell those boys to get into that oven and enjoy themselves and we know that whatever happens they'll give 100% on the day and you can't really ask for much more than that at the end of the day.

Er....yeah.....those

I can see from the pre cookoff build up that Olive is the underspud. She won't mind that. The pressure's all on Goosey to perform and the fans expect an easy victory. Olive will tell her spuds that they've got absolutely nothing to lose, to get in to that oven and roast their natural roast and at the end of the day if the temperature's right and one or two Gooseys spuds burn out early then at the end of the day who knows anything can happen.

Wrong again. The number of "highly influential" chefs who are not either from France or working square in the French tradition is minute. I know Spain has one or two now and Britain has a couple etc. but the numbers are tiny compared to France. This is because the cult of the chef is a French thing. I had one of the finest meals of my life in 1990 in the Oberoi Hotel in Bombay. When I asked who the chef was and could I meet him to congratulate him seven people came out. I asked who was in charge. There was a lot of shy smiling and the answer came "No-one really" Now actually I don't think for a second that that was true and it probably wouldn't happen now,but it was indicative of how the notion of the master chef was alien to them at that particular time. Unlike you I do not see this so called "failure" on Italy's part as a failure at all.We already said pages ago that in fashion and design they are at the cutting edge but from cuisine they are interested in other values. They don't particularly want it "corrected" thank you very much. To someone so locked into a particular notion of dining it might seem a failure,but despite your constantly claiming that others agree with you it would appear from the evidence that you are in a minority of...er....one.

Blimey. Tommy I'd be very afraid if I were you.

OK Steve I admit it. Your culinary credentials are bigger than my culinary credentials............................................But I bet my dad's are bigger than your dad's!

Right,now that others are back on thread. I think you'd be hard put to find a dictionary definition of "gourmet" which mentions the word "technique" or "modern cooking technique" The most commonly held definition is "one who appreciates and enjoys good food and drink" or some such. Given that widely held definition, Macrosan's lucid answer to Fat Guy's original question holds completely.

Well now Steve what you're doing is this. YOU (not the "we" you keep claiming-I only hear you-others please speak up and agree with him because he's claiming to speak for you)-YOU have decided that in order to be able to say anything meaningful on the topic,one has to have eaten in 3 star restaurants in Italy. I have not eaten in three star restaurants in Italy. Therefore for you my opinion on the topic is "useless". I contributed my main points to the topic a couple of pages back. Maybe it irked you that Robert Brown thought the points I made were "succinctly and brilliantly put" because you immdiately decided that my definition of "relevance" was the "wrong" one-ie the one that didn't suit you and since then you've been banging on ad nauseam about how it's ME that is obsessed with changing the definition. Jesus. Since in the last few posts you are claiming to speak for others,it seems odd that they're remaining resolutely silent. Or maybe they've just got bored and gone away. Either way I'm done here unless others are prepared to contribute,

Pots and kettles....pots and kettles.

I could come back but I'm conscious that no-one but us is participating in this conversation and I'm not really willing to go on if nobody else is interested.

THERE was the answer to the question. Yes and no. With reasons given. Yes I like Italian food. Doesn't everybody? No ,generally it doesn't reach the heights of French 3 star cuisine. Some of us were arguing that it was "about" something else and trying to ascertain what that was. That was the way the thread developed. It is interesting to think about what Italian cuisine is all about. Constantly repeating that its not as good at 3 star level as French cuisine does not take us further in understanding in which ways and to which markets it is a vibrant and "relevant" cuisine. But I'm beginning to wonder whether there are people who find the answer to a question "yes and no" difficult to cope with.

BLH, a few yards further down the road,just by Kennington station WAS a restaurant called The Station Grill. It was set up a few years ago by a couple of Roux bros. graduates and served good local French bistrot type food at reasonable prices. I say was because I've no idea if it's still there or in the same hands. Might be worth checking out though

Following a heated debate about the best medium in which to roast potatoes (goose fat v.olive oil) there will be the first ever roast potato cook off down in darkest deepest Kent on Sunday week. Because of limited oven space there will be room for only....er.....two contestants,but we're looking forward to a keenly fought battle and we'll report back the results as soon as a winner is declared.

As an addendum,I said that a page ago. Do you see those three little words Steve-"you are right". Some of us wanted to develop the concept of "relevance" beyond your definition to discuss other ways in which Italian cuisine could be relevant, that's all. You couldn't seem to grasp this. I don't know why as you don't strike me as an unintelligent guy.

Your notion that people have to have eaten in certain restaurants in order to participate in certain general discussions about say "Italian Food" is laughable. If having eaten in certain restaurants is a qualification for participating in such discussions on these boards then there wouldnt be much of a site here at all. Also the fact that you insist repeatedly in addressing the issue,and many others,in terms of what goes on in certain restaurants shows just how limited your grasp and perception of the issues are.

That "we". Who are "they" exactly? You mean "you". Why do you assume a majority position when the majority of people on the thread have disagreed with you?