Tonyfinch

i'm surprised you could remember anything after that Yeah. It was those coffees that did it.

Nah. That would've been Corsican

Sardo was packed last night (Wed) and there was a very buzzy atmosphere. Service was pleasant but a little stretched. After the meal we chatted for ages over coffee and brandies and we were at no time pressurised to leave.I was catching up with an old friend so we weren't particularly focused down on the food. I had a pleasant Buffalo Mozarella and Chutney starter but my friend was disappointed that his porcini dish was cold and a little greasy I don't know how Sardinian roast Venison with dauphinoise style potatoes is but it was really nice-tender flavoursome slices of meat cooked rare as requested. My friends veal chop with herbs was a little bland and dry. No desserts,two bottles of wine from Venegazzu,two coffees,two large brandies-£103. Can't remember whether that included service or not(or whether we left a tip) I enjoyed it and would go back.

Where the hell is The Olive Garden?

Wilfred, that post does not befit you. The analogy does not hold at any level. It would be too tedious to explain why.

Damn. I'm meeting friends at Sardo tonight. Too late to cancel. Will avoid pasta and report back.

I wondered how long it would take someone to characterise those who prefer some dining experiences without children as "anti-kids". The moment one starts questioning the presence of kids in certain leisure situations there's alwaus someone ready to accuse you of somehow being "against" children. It's not about what children are or are not "entitled" to. No-one has questioned the "entitlement" of children to be present. No restaurant is refusing to admit them. You can bring 'em if you want. However there are clearly some of us who prefer certain dining experiences to be adult experiences. -where we can have time out from the world of children and inhabit a totally adult world for a few hours. If I'm eating at this kind of restaurant I don't want to be concerned with my child for the few hours I have to enjoy what is an experience which only adults can fully appreciate in all its ambition and skill. Since your'e talking about "entitlement", why is this less of an "entitlement"?

Just a coda: Were those "tedious cicular arguments" perfectly or imperfectly circular?

Yes. It is different in one major respect. When an adult behaves like an idiot one can express annoyance and indignation with a clear conscience if one wishes.One can also choose to be forgiving and magnanimous if in a benign mood. In other words you choose your response. When a child chucks the lego into your Petus '47 you may be seething but really have no choice but to smile through gritted teeth while doting parents shrug aplogetically and gaze lovingly at the sprog. Far more irritating and frustrating.

But no-one is "insisting" on "absolute separation". No-one has said you must not do it. In this situation you are probably over sensitive to what people might be thinking. And that's because part of you knows that it's unusual and inappropriate to schlep a four year old child to a top class 3 star restaurant.

My answer to that is that it would make a difference to ME. I love doing all kinds of things with my son,including going to restaurants but there are some things which I keep for me-adult time if you like. When it comes to going out to expensive restaurants my view is "sorry pal but this is not one for you" And it's not that it would be so awful for him if he did come,but he would be resolutely indifferent to the quality and make it a less full on experience for me. You obviously feel differently-good for you.

Stuff and nonsense Vanessa. The child's behaviour is not the issue. Top class restaurants are not for children. There are plenty of other restaurants to take children to.

Well if the problem is practical like there's nothing else but to take him,well maybe.But I wouldn't do it. I'd rather postpone my fine dining ambitions until I wasn't so encumbered. Apart from anything else I don't want to have to be fussing about keeping my child amused,no matter how well behaved he is, when I'm in one of the world's top restaurants. I want to focus all my attentiion and concentration on the dining experience before me,not fishing around for his crayons and his Harry Potter colouring in book in between mouthfuls of my amuse bouche.

Why do you want to take him? What is he a fashion accessory? Restaurants lile Gordon Ramsey are not for such young children whether they allow them there or not. They are serious restaurants for adult dining. There are plenty of other places to take young children. I have a six year old son and I wouldn't dream of subjecting him to an experience so beyond his ability to appreciate.

Peter's right in that the Italian food served in London is not the same (or as "authentic") as that served in Italy,but my point is so what? It is a different genre. Restaurants like Locatelli, Zafferano, River Cafe and so on serve up what you might call "Modern London Italian". They are attempting to be interesting and sometimes groundbreaking restaurants. They acknowledge that their ideas and sometimes their ingredients and many of their staff are from Italy but they are not trying to be "real" Italian restaurants in the sense that Peter means it because they can't be. They are operating in a completely different milieu.

I took Macrosan to mean that there are as many "real Italian" meals as there are people in Italy who know how to cook them. That the variations are so numerous that to talk of "real Italian food" is meaningless. However Italian restaurants in London generally abide by sets of conventions that may or may not bear any relation to those abided by in Italy. They form their own genre and that genre develops over time according to taste and demand and a host of other things. These days fewer restaurant to the phallic pepper mill and sprinling of dried parmesan routine than used to,there are fewer straw covered Chianti flasks.More restaurants stress regional dishes and ingredients and so on. However since many London cuisines developed out of a demand from holidaymakers returning home and demanding an approximation of what they ate while on holiday,an approximation is what they get. They want to relive the "Italian Experience" or the "Thai Experience" which in many ways was never an "authentic" experience in the first place.

Jesus,pots and kettles or WHAT? Ten pages of this and he calls US pedantic! Actually I've never eaten at the places you're talking about but it's quite an interesting converation. Sorry for the interruption. Do carry on.

Well,maybe but people still classify restaurants by their country of origin as opposed to any other way. People fancy an Indian or a Thai or an Italian or whatever. It'sthe way they think about how to choose a restaurant Obviously within each genre is a wide varation of quality and authenticity,but certain identifiable traits still define the genre and can be reconized as having links to some sort of original template,even though those links may have changed in order to adapt to local conditions and demand.

Le Manoir and The Waterside Inn were not in London last time I looked. Isn't Mossimanns a private club?

Italians fighting-that should be...er....interesting. I agree that it's hard to find a decent steak in Britain (and btw did anyone read in the paper yesterday about the demise of the Aberdeen and Angus Steakhouse chain-shame that) but grilled Cote De Boeuf for two in France is a staple restaurant classic and can be as delicious as any you can have in the States.

Two more suggestions where I haven't been. West St.,very near the theatre. And 179-Shaftesbury Ave that is,formerly Conrad Gallagher.

Forgot to add.TO lists last orders at Rules at 11.30.

A quick glance at the Time Out guide shows most of the Chinatown restaurant taking orders to 11.30 or 11 45 with some like Mr Kong, New Diamond and New Mayflower going on to the early hours.

Maybe he doesn't know. I bet he'd change his name if it was Terry Schmuk.

Whyowhy people choose to spend prime time watching other people prancing around on a stage making a hell of a bleedin' racket as opposed to eating and drinking and talking is beyond me, but if you must: Incognico in Shaftesbury Ave serves til midnight Teatro in Shaftesbury Ave seves til late You could hop over to Le Caprice or even try for a late table at The Ivy(probably not much chance) Christopher's and Joe Allen,both in Covent Garden, might fit the bill. J.Sheekey if you fancy fish Alastair Little in Soho