Tonyfinch

Well,that's clearly how all those queuing to get in must think,then. I'd rather not go than have a time limited table.

Look, let me try just once more,then I'll take FG's advice. I agree with the tomato analogy,the peach analogy,the fish and chip analogy. That is because it is possible to arrive at a near univeral consensus as to what constitutes a good tomato, peach, fish and chips etc. The criteria for deciding is not hard to define. As LML said, anyone who prefers the mealy flavourless tomato to the delicious red flavoursome one is someone who doesn't like tomatoes. So they would be "wrong". The issue of what "should" one drink with steak frites is not the same because there is no possibility of arriving at a near universal set of criteria that would allow such a consensus to be reached. To argue that the "right" answer is "wine" is to exclude millions of people who might really enjoy steak frittes, but who don't drink alcohol, or who don't like wine. Why on earth would they say "Wine is the right answer even though it is the wrong answer for me". That is absurd. If one drinks wine then one might be able to arrive at a general consensus as to which is the "right" wine to drink with steak frites. (though I doubt it- what might be the "right" wine to drink at a 3 star retaurant might not be the same as the one to drink in a casual back street bistro, where a carafe of rough local rouge might confer just as much pleasure-but presumably those who believe in "the Standard" are disdainful of that kind of contextual relativism). But one would still have to establish wine as the consensus drink. With your tomato/peach criteria non-existent you cannot talk about what is "right" to drink with steak frites outside of that which you "prefer" to drink. To argue otherwise is meaningless at best and culinarily fascistic at worst.

I am astonished that people put up with it. Why? At Hibiscus in Ludlow last month we had a wonderful evening that went on for nearly four hours. Going to a top restaurant is not only about the food on the plate. It is about feeling relaxed, cossetted, looked after. It's a whole evening's experience. One can say who can blame Ramsey if people are queuing up to get in and that'd be right. But it's a shame he's is not more committed to providing a whole evening experience in the manner of all the traditional top class restaurants of the past, whose values he clearly rejects.

Steve, after millions of your posts on the same issue on this and countless other threads, I am as befuddled as ever. If there is a "right" thing to drink with steak frites, why would anyone "prefer" to drink anything else-by definition the "wrong" thing"? What if some of the hundred chefs who you airily claim would all say the same thing if asked, don't like red wine. or do not drink alcohol? Are you saying that they would claim Burgundy to be the "right " thing despite the fact that they don't like wine,or drink it?

Steve,it's interesting how you read Michael's question not as what to drink with steak frites but what WINE to drink? He never mentioned wine. You are answering a different question which goes a lttle way to narrowing down the criteria so that a consensus could be reached,but only a little way.

Let's take Michael's example: what should you drink with steak frites? I say- Chateau Lafite 1947 You say -Milk. Which of us is "right"? Obvious answer-neither and both,because to arrive at the conclusion that one was right and the other wrong we would have to agree on very specific criteria as to what is and isn't desirable to drink with steak frites. You may wish to spend time with people who prefer the Chateau Lafite but that doesn't make you a snob. You'd be a snob if you invented that criteria for yourself (I've decided Lafite is "better" than milk) and then ranked ordered people on a social scale according how much they fit or don't fit your self appointed range of preferences. Right?

Second that. According to Oddbins' blurb the Greek wine industry, so long up a backwater,is modernising very rapidly and they are now producing some good stuff. It probably hasn't found its way on to wine lists in restaurants yet, with the exception of The Real Greek, where the list is supposed to be good,if pricey. Retsina is your ultimate context wine. Delicious while sitting in a Taverna overlooking the sea nibbling meze and octupus and calamari and grilled fish with lemon. Yuk in Wapping.

Yes. And no possible answer you could give would reveal that you had better taste than anybody else by any criteria which could be generally agreed.

This discussion has lurched back to the old one about "taste". I thought we were discussing snobbery. Snobbery is about the despisal of others and the self allocation to a social rank above or below others. If I prefer hamburger A to hamburger B I can disagree with the person who prefers hamburger B WITHOUT despising him. I might despise his taste in hamburgers but i need not extend that to a general despisal of his status as a human being. If I choose to assign him to a place on a social rank order beneath that of my own that social rank order is of my own devising and does not exist outside of my own construct of the way in which I perceive rank ordering. In other words I can say that this tomato is better than that tomato because we can probably all agree on the general criteria that makes one tomato better than another. But snobbery is about saying I am a better person than you on criteria that I alone have devised. Is anybody here really going to argue that we can come up with criteria by which we can all agree on what constitutes better or worse humans?

Adam, if you're into gizmos you can by an electric rice cooker. We were given one by Iranian friends who swear by it. It results in fluffy separated rice and if you want you can add oil to achieve a golden crust which,by adjusting the dial,can be as light or as dark as you wish.

The concept of "reverse snobbism" underlies many of the attitudes towards food and drink in the UK. Taking an interest in what you eat and drink, discussing it, making a hobby of it etc. is regarded as a sign of pretentiousness and affectation. I know people who, if you should dare to discuss the qualities of a wine in their presence,will snigger,roll their eyes fake yawns and exhort you to "stop gabbling about it and get it down yer neck". This reverse snobbism is compensation for the deep insecurity that most Brits feel about food and wine. I mentioned on another thread how Pierre Koffman tells in his book how he offered all the workers involved in re-furbishing La Tante Claire, and their partners,a free meal to celebrate the end of the work. They ALL refused,on the grounds that they would feel uncomfortable and out of place in such fancy French restaurant. Koffman muses on how their French equivalents would have leaped at the chance of a freebie in such a renowned restaurant. In his book My Gastronomy, Nico Ladenis is scathing about how customers in the provinces compensate for their insecurity by behaving like lunatics in his restaurant -making all kinds of absurd demands, treating the staff like shit, sneering at fellow diners and at the menu etc. Things are definitely improving but suspicion on culinary matters is still a common response. Suspicion makes people feel uncomfortable so denial kicks in and reverse snobbism is activated.

Eating "well" is not necessarily about eating expensively. It is perfectly possible to eat superbly and spend considerably less than people spend on the shite they normally eat. So called "peasant" cuisines from around the world are renowned for producing delicious food from the cheapest of ingredients. The time arguement is also not a factor. It is perfectly possible to prepare excellent and nutritious food in very quick time. The issue of is one of priority. People cant be bothered with cooking, thinking about cooking, shopping for meals. Other things take priority-going down the pub for one. I have a friend who spends thousands of pounds following his football team home and away. He'll happily spend £50 in an evening in the pub with me,but if I suggest a restaurant---sharp intake of breath followed by "how can you go out and spend £50 per head on a MEAL for chrissake?" For the Brits this is the mass cultural mindset and while I don't have contempt for him I have contempt for it.

If people "don't know how to eat" then there's nothing to "look down" on them for" They can be shown. The truth is that the millions who bring themselves and their families up on crap are the same millions who are glued to Jamie Oliver and Nigella Lawson cookery programmes. They're the same people who ensure that Rick Stein and Delia Smith books are besy sellers year in year out. It's not that they don't know. It's that they can't be arsed. And for that they are worthy of the utmost contempt.

Actually Peter, I was citing the immortal Alex Portnoy in Portnoy's Complaint who,exasperated by his girlfriend's retort of "That's just your opinion" everytime he says anything, finally turns round and says: "It isn't my opinion, girly. It's the truth!" In other words, it was a J--o--k---e. You know jokes? Phew!

That's just your opinion.

Peter, why do you keep on tediously repeating the self evident truth that people are entitled to their opinion on something? It reminds me of playground arguments I had when I was twelve :"Well that's just your opinion, nah" It's really boring to be expected to write "in my opinion" every time you want to make a point. And besides. My opinions are right and yours are wrong.

Can't agree that white port is hard to distinguish from red port with eyes shut.White port is a clump of a drink compared to any red port above the very basic level. It's best drunk ice cold mixed with soda or lemonade and a twist of lime as a thirst quencher on a hot day, which is how its mostly consumed in the Douro. It's also good in cooking when you don't want a dark finish to a dish.

I think this sums up much of the why British food is crap argument so beloved by Plotnicki et al. British social life developed round the pub. And pubs are for drinking beer in, not eating in. Salty snacks are pushed to increase thirst. Soft drinks are extortionately priced. Wine is crap. Food,if it is provided at all,has to be of a standard that can be prepared and served by people on paltry wages and requires no skill that would involve the breweries in hiring more expensive labour or installing expensive equipment. The power of the breweries,coupled with the fact that we are not a wine producing country meant that we never developed a cafe/restaurant culture like France,Italy Spain etc. where alcohol consumption is much more related to food. Also,our concentrated urbanization means that there are far less people involved in actually producing food so we have no equivalent of the French concept of "terroir"-local people producing local food for local outlets. This has all led to a cultural mindset whereby Stephen's workmates prefer to go the pub to drink beer at lunchtime and eat some slop to soak it up rather than choosing a nice little local restaurant. Over the last 20 years things have changed much for the better but in many parts of the country it's still the way it is. So there.

Excuse me. What sort of question is that? Who the hell is Bryan Ferry?

So take a GOOD LOOK at my face You'll see my SMILE looks out of place If you look closer it's easy to trace The crux of my post Baby....Baby baby baby OOps sorry pissed again

Are you pissed again Gavin?

There's not much interest to be had in arguing about whether what Simo says is true because it clearly is. The more interesting issue is why it's true. Millions of people watch cookery programmes every week. They're some of the most popular programmes on TV. People like Jamie Oliver, the Two Fat Ladies, Gary Rhodes etc. become media superstars. Cookery books sell in their tens of thousands, Marco Pierre White and Gordon Ramsey are household names. And yet.And yet.....people are shovelling ever greater quantities of shite down their throats whether in pubs or in junk food joints. And they think its a treat. Doesn't add up. Or does it?

As a matter of mega pedantry you officially leave the Isle of Dogs when you walk over the footbridge spanning the river inlet by that tall apartment block with lookout towers. No flies on me when it comes to the East End.

Pedants Corner time again. The Grapes is not on the Isle of Dogs,but in Narrow St. Limehouse. There is a fish restaurant upstairs.

The place sounds exactly the same as it was when I had a couple of excellent dinners there back in the early nineties. I think the have,or at least used to have, a connection with the African supermarket next door. They sell a lot of dried fish there so that was probably what was in your soup.