v. gautam

Found exactly the same effect mixing in frozen Goya passionfruit pulp. Really delicious. Requires some sweetening, though. Not quite as successful with guanabana. As you remark, getting the right amount makes the whole difference. Sadly, i never stop to measure when i get it right; a little too much, and you see the curdling effect, or if you let it sit. Therefore, although it must be slightly in excess, you have to drink it immediately. Or, if you want it to wait in the refrigerator, buffer the drink with a bit of dry egg white powder, whirled in with a hand blender....slightly messy. g

Well, it might become a useful loan word in culinary English, bridging a gap, as umami did. g

What would be the closest English/butchershop equivalent for nu lan? TIA. gautam

To Sheetz, and anyone who would like to jump in [ this is slightly off-topic, for which I apologize, but the pictures of the shrimp made me do it!]: For many years, especially when I have been able to get fresh product, I salt-whip the shelled shrimp with coarse salt at least once, if not twice. This gets rid of a mucilaginous substance and makes for a better mouth feel. Still, it does not equal the 'crunchy' texture achieved in restaurants, which I have been told takes soaking in flowing water, alkali, etc. Could anyone please enlighten me as to how that wonderful crispness happens? Many, many thanks. gautam

ChefCrash, Thank you very very much for the photos, exactly what I was looking for [ and the chicken one still leaves my poor brain right gobsmacked!] Am still puzzling out the architectural/structural mysteries [given my non-existent knowledge of these fields] as to how relatively small sheets of chicken breast (as compared to lamb or beef) can be formed into a substantial body, be held up securely by a single central skewer, and yet be coherent enough to not come loose on the slightly downward moment of each slicing movement! This is all the more remarkable when we understand that such was accomplished manually (Daniel) and still is (Elie), taking into account the possibility of slippery/oily mainades or fatty interlayers. How these structures are built up out of the relatively small sizes of chicken meat is what fascinates me. Thank you all, so much, for your inputs. gautam

Is the chicken shawarma from Lebanon and Israel similar in marinade and execution? Are both visually similar to the fairly large, rather solid, meaty cones we associate [in the US] with Greek gyros? From the photos posted above, it appears that Turkish doner, too, broadly fit this description. But what does chicken shawarma look like? I mean the entire ensemble, as it is sliced for service. What cuts of the chicken go into making the commercial product? All white, all dark, a mix? Any fatty interlayers as in lamb versions? Is it mechanically compressed? It would seem very time consuming otherwise (?) to thread marinated chicken meat that necessarily comes in small pieces into a block (skewers?) that could be shaved? Would love to see some photos, and learn more, if possible. Many thanks.

Windtrader, Just as Amul brand serves a cooperative of dairy farmers in Gujarat state in the westernmost part of India, Verka does the same in Punjab. The Amul story, Operation Flood and Kurien Verghese make fascinating reading about progress, hope, development etc. Since the ghee story already lead you to learn something about Indian festivals, here is another thing for a rainy day, if you wish! Verka is a famous brand in Punjab: MILKFED-PUNJAB MILKFED NETWORK:http://milkfed.nic.in/mfed.htm The Punjab State Cooperative Milk Producers’ Federation Limited popularly known as MILKFED Punjab, came into existence in 1973 with a twin objective of providing remunerative milk market to the Milk Producers in the State by value addition and marketing of produce on one hand and to provide technical inputs to the milk producers for enhancement of milk production on the other hand. Although the federation was registered much earlier, but it came to real self in the year 1983 when all the milk plants of the erstwhile Punjab Dairy Development Corporation Limited were handed over to Cooperative sector and the entire State was covered under Operation Flood to give the farmers a better deal and our valued customers better products.Today, when we look back, we think we have fulfilled the promise to some extent.The setup of the organisation is a three tier system, Milk Producers Cooperative Societies at the village level, Milk Unions at District level and Federation as an Apex Body at State level. MILKFED Punjab has continuously advanced towards its coveted objectives well defined in its byelaws. GHEE (AGMARK) Boudine Test Neg. B.R.reading(40 degree C.) 40 - 43 RM Value (Min.) 28.0 P.Value 1.0 - 2.0 FFA % Oleic Acid( Max) 0.30 http://milkfed.nic.in/ghee.htm So now your hard and fruitful detective work has provided you this: North to South, Indian: Verka, from Punjab Amul, from Gujarat, 200 ml Dynamix, from Maharashtra [this one is unfamiliar, but then most new things in India are to me] Vijaya, from Andhra Pradesh North America: Nanak Desi ghee Vrindavan [kalustyan price too high by 2x, should be about $8/lb, shop around, wait] So for $20 you can have a go at the quality Indian product and get a good idea of the aromas that spell Pure desi ghee. Then compare them to the 2 North American ghees and see what you think. Lastly, do the melted Muenster cheese trick, and make a final taste comparison. [bTW, nix the "Vedic organic ghees": sheer CR... They are meant to separate the narcissistic wealthy from their wealth!] Finally, i am no expert, just someone with some knowledge common to rural folk, that seems exotic and special in this forum but is taken for granted throughout non-English speaking India!

Without meaning to be presumptuous, I would respectfully like to offer some alternative viewpoints, begging forbearance from all of you. This impulse arises from both my professional qualifications as a plant physiologist and molecular pathologist with over a quarter century of training, and from a personal love affair with fruit and vegetables and the desire to see everyone be extremely successful with their gardening. Anytime I unwittingly violate some personal boundary, please just say so straight out, American-style, and I will be not at all sad! This is just looking at Hiroyuki-san's garden: The Square Foot Gardening System is sound for certain vegetables like globe radish, carrot (which are seemingly unresponsive to density) etc., but not necessarily for all the species the book includes in its ambit. Be that as it may, if you can get quantities of rice straw (at rates cheaper than the peatlite formula) at Shiozawa, that have not been treated with herbicides, the straw breaks down into excellent compost and you can grow cucurbits like cucumber, melons, watermelons, pumpkins, even tomatoes, on the straw bales, without the necessity of making a separate square foot garden. When the breakdown is far progressed, i.e. end of the first year, simply add the stuff to your SQF beds. Tomatoes and cukes do fine on the raw first year undecomposed straw, IF you are attentive with the fertilizing and watering schedule. If the bales are tight, they will not be an eyesore; else they may be contained within 4 feet x 8 feet sheets of construction styrofoam [don't know if they are economical vs. SQF system in Japan] So, here you have a pre-SQF garden of raw straw, where you grow certain types of plants. Then next year, that straw becomes ready for a new SQF box, with or without any peatlite [i.e. peat, vermiculite, perlite] additions. Of course, this hinges on whether straw is actually more economical than peatlite, given the cost of acquisition and transportation, bother, your labor, additional fertilzer, water costs, styrofoam or plywood containment for neatness, etc. I feel ashamed to mention a source of nitrogen that was traditional in Japan and Asia, but now goes to waste, causing a disconnect in the biogeochemical cycle, as well as in our economics and foreign policy: human nitrogenous wastes, of which the liquid fraction is very safe, clean, collectable and eminently suitable for use in straw bale culture. For the moment, please give aeroponics a rest! I There are many fantastic watermelon cultivars that are small in both plant and fruit size, all developed in Japan. We have grown some and can recommend them strongly, and suggest specific variety names if you wish. These are so easily grown that they should not be overlooked; nor should cantaloupes; if these two types of melons happen to find favor with your family. Shall be happy to provide step-by-step guide if needed. Very cost-effective. While Japan is home to exceptional hybrid tomato seed varieties that leave nothing to be desired, here is a friend korney19@verizon.net [no financial ties of course, we are just tomato crazies] who supplies dozens of fantastic heirloom tomato seeds at unbelievable prices. Quirky guy, but you have to be that to grow several score tomatoes in your backyard! Primocane relatively thorn-free raspberries like Dinkum, Anne, Caroline and Jaclyn, plus one plant of a thorn-free blackbery like Triple Crown would be delicious, cost-effective additions. Berries from July to November, very flavorful. I see Hiroyuki-san still is left with much valuable empty, sunlit space in his yard, and would respectfully urge him to consider [not plant, just consider] 1-2 espaliered (or just on dwarfing rootstock) European pears along a wall; one hears that such are fairly dear in Japan, but would grow fairly well in Shiozawa. Perhaps Comice and Seckel? Apples on very dwarfing rootstock are very worthwhile : you get to plant varieties you cannot ever find in stores: Pitmaston Pineapple, Centennial, Chestnut Crab, Uralskoje Nalivnoje, Sam Young, Edward VII, Coconut Crunch, Egremont Russet; Northern Spy. All are available in Japanese germplasm collections. If at this point Hiroyuki-san has not been mortally offended, I may yet venture to write about recent developments on dwarfing rootstocks for cherry and peach that make growing these very feasible for a small backyard. Even one tree each makes for an unforgettable experience, especially for a young child. The best part is that the gravel mulch need not be disturbed: the trees can be planted through it and grow neatly without creating a mess. gautam

Here’s an interesting twist discovered by our friend EPISURE ( one of the moderators of the Indian cuisine section): “The Yunessun Spa Resort in Japan's traditional hot spring town of Hakone has made a "curry bath," making traditional curry broth into a spicy spa treatment. …..Vegetables floating in the bath are made of plastic. …….. (!!!!) Spa officials say taking a dip in the curry bath is good for health as ingredients include red pepper and turmeric which both help improve the bathers' metabolism.” http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?...ssid=68&sid=LIF

Has anyone here faithfully followed the 'curry recipe' set out in Hiroko Shimbo's book? Would be curious to learn of their opinions. She uses a combination of sweet-tart fruit to achieve body and flavor, in addition to spices and herbs, harking back to authentic English curry sauce that employs cooking apples [that break down in a particular way] and so to 'true' Japanese curry traditions. The sauce is cooked for about 2 hours! This is the preparation stage, before the shrimp etc. goes in. Looks and smells absolutely delicious [even in print!] but 2 hours just to prepare the 'liquid roux' in this case? Yet, she is not one to fool around with her recipes! Perhaps the fruit, onions etc. need that long to break down and form a smooth sauce? Would this recipe be a rare example of a truly authentic Japanese curry recipe from scratch, presented in English? TIA, gautam P.S. made a major error, mistakenly writing Elizabeth Andoh (through force of habit, almost) for Hiroko Shimbo, that now has been corrected.

Peppertrail, Episure, I should clarify my remarks: what our American friend was asking was: where and what brand of excellent ghee could he purchase from Indian sources in India, perhaps by mailorder. I have been away too long and simply do not know. However, some years ago, did see people from Kolkata bring small plastic pouches of fairly good quality table ghee as gifts for their children. Don't remember the brand. though. I wonder if you both would advise Windtrader where/how he could lay his hands on the Asli desi ghee from India, say : 1) the Coimbatore type you favor 2) perhaps our mutual friend S.....cy in Mumbai/Belgaum or you could advise on reputed vendors of the pure desi stuff [Maha/Gujrat style] and whether it is feasible to be mailordered to the US BTW, here is a question i long wanted to ask you: you know the famous Buffalo culture and Dairy Temples of the Nilgiri tribe whose name escapes me at the moment, what types of milk products do they make? Another thing i forgot to mention is that in traditional India, cooking the butter over a fire of twigs and dried cowpats [and remember the Indian cowdung contains a lot of lignin material unlike American cowdung, and so burns with a very fragrant smoke] helps it to pick up just the slightest smoky hint, a hallmark of the countrymade asli [pure] ghee. Nepal too produces fantastic buffalo ghee, and the Gurungs situated just outside Pokhara make this fantastic snack out of rice paste squeezed into flat, concentric circles and fried in their incredible ghee. The buffalo are fed on forest grass and leaves at altitudes of over 6000 feet, and this murrukku-like rice snack is beyond belief. Marketing this item might endanger the already stressed Himalan midhills, but hopefully some sustainable solution might be found, because this could be an indigenous cash earner, adding much-needed value to local agriculture? Sorry to hassle you both. But one for Bharatmata. Warmest and most Respectful regards. gautam

What you have is milk fudge, called khoyA in northern India, mAwA in western India, and a sight to delight any Indian heart! It is no exaggeration to claim that this stuff keeps India happy and functional; take it away, and within days, the country will have turned into a wasteland! Not kidding! It is used in savory dishes, especially Awadhi Muslim cooking [from Lucknow], but its main use is in a range of long-keeping sweets, often flavored with saffron, almonds, cardamom etc. Wonder if its appearance early in Japan's history carries with it the faint residue of Buddhism's cultural antecedents, Bodhidharma et al. ? gautam

1. For good quality ghee for ordinary kitchen use like frying etc., NAFED or any of the tinned ghees [careful, not vegetable 'ghee'] from India , or VRINDAVAN from USA are just fine. Indeed, they are quite acceptable for ordinary table use as well. These ghees can also be used to finish off dishes. These 2 types are probably available here. 2. For very good quality ghee meant only for table use, e.g. sprinkling over steaming hot rice, potatoes etc. : I have been away too long but say in Kolkata, several vendors now sell table quality ghee in small [50 gram, 100gram?] plastic pouches. Will try to find out, or members should request true cognoscenti like EPISURE to chime in with their expertise on Kolkata + Bangalore 's best brands. These may already be available in the US or can be easily brought back by returning travelers with no leakage or fuss [AFAIK]. 3. For truly excellent desi ghee, my strategy for northern India is limited to Rajasthan, and that too to Sikar district: If you know someone with rural roots, ask him to bring you some. Now that is not practicable, I realize. New Delhi must have reputable merchants selling the pure stuff, as must Mumbai/bombay, Bangalore, Chennai/madras.So please let me defer to the real experts for sound advice on sourcing: BBHASIN MONICA BHIDE SUVIR SARAN EPISURE [southern India, Bangalore, Kolkata and Mumbai] PEPPERTRAIL [southern India, esp. Kerala] NICHIRO [omnipresent, just teasing you, N-san!] Warm regards gautam

Also the complex aroma components caused by 1. unique microbial consortia first during the yoghurt stage, esp. diacetyl forming critters, [this is missing in sweet creamery butter, and only partially present in cultured butter (lower temps)] 2. Then again during further storage of that butter at ambient conditons, say at north Indian winter room temperatures, 75F for argument's sake, for a further period of n days, determined by local tradition--more opportunities for flavor components to develop, including controlled/limited oxidation i.e. 'rancidity' 3. slow melting, as Gabriel explained, to drive out moisture, cook out the solids to desired 'brownness' plus develop the desired liquid crystal structure, the 'daanedaar' Milagai refers to above, the characteristic grainy texture diagnostic of superior quality. 4. Further ageing under controlled conditions of temperature, humidity and oxidation. There is reputed to exist super-prime 10 year old ghees in Rajasthan, in the Marwar districts of Churu, Pali and Sikar, all very dry, where such can be stored under very fine sand in special earthenware vessels. I do not know if this is true. I do know that in these very same districts, especially Sikar, local watermelons are stored from September to December under this very type of sand with NO refrigeration, out in the open under ambient conditions! Imagine the local ingenuity! So, yes, all fermented grape juice can technically [and truthfully] be made into wine. But the skill in producing the wine you and I can ferment in our cellar, and that employed by a master vintner on grapes partaking of an enviable terroir? The results? The difference between a commercial ghee sold in the US whose ingredients are listed as 'clarified butter' and Pure Desi Ghee is the difference between a run-of-the mill gewurztraminer wine from anywhere compared to a top quality Alsatian or Navarro Vineyards cluster select vintage 2005 product. It all starts with bad, stale milk; as noted above. Break that link and you can achieve wonders. Feed the catlle complex phenylpropanoids, i.e. leaves rich in lignins (not digestible, long story) but also other aromatics (biochemically speaking), pastures full of grasses and aromatic herbs, and no animal proteins whatsoever, and you have a winner. [And this is the first I've ever heard of 'sour notes'; sour grapes, maybe on Odells part, or a smart marketing strategy?] Gabriel, For Quebec, Yak [actually dri, female] x cow hybrids will do far better in the cold, utilize feed efficiently, provide much richer milk. Yak herds in US Nebraska etc. Can provide more details. Agriculture Canada should have yaks in eastern Canada for sheer utility and biological efficiency. Perhaps you could suggest this to them as a research project that will cost just pennies. Warm regards, gautam

I am not being at all disrespectful wnen I ask this question. As diabetic myself, I often wonder what people raised in intensely rice or carbohydrate based food cultures [such as my own Indian Bengali one] do to adapt to a low-carbohydrate regime? [Although, one must say that 21st century Japan with its 'prosperity' and range of foods available to buyers is very different from the Japan of the 1950s; still, the rural areas must be a bit cautious about pesto and such 'foreign' foods, would they not?] Japanese short grain rices, mochi, udon, flour based noodles of most types etc. [but probably not buckwheat flour or shirataki] definitely have a prohibitive glycemic index. These being the heart of say, a middle-class, or affordable diet, with what foods would a diabetic manage to celebrate the changing seasons? In the US, it seems that certain types of proteins (both animal and vegetable), fruits and vegetables are considerably cheaper than similar types of things in Japan that might be suitable for diabetics. I may be horriibly wrong (I hope so). Also, one nowadays is told to avoid consuming too great a quantity of soy protein or products. So what are the alternatives? Thanks for understanding. gautam

Gabriel, I don't know if this would be possible in your locality, but here is a thought experiment: Here, near Ithaca, there is a small dairy named Meadowsweet in Lodi, NY, that makes an exceptional wholemilk yoghurt, where the thick fat layer beautifully comes to the surface. Then, they take the trouble to stir it all in, and make it into a liquid-style yoghurt for market. I have pleaded with them to do this: skim off the fat layer and make cultured butter as a value-added product, and sell the yoghurt underneath as a low-fat yoghurt. Plus sell another day's yoghurt as the regular, full fat yoghurt. However, this is too much trouble for them, and also there is the matter of shelf space in local groceries, no small problem. It is difficult to add yet another extra item. Their milk quality, and stability of their yoghurt culture, is absolutely stunning. Here is my suggestion: if you can find a similar small dairy near you that is already producing artisanal yoghurt, persuade them to sell you a part of every day's fat layer. What do they lose? They can always sell that part of their yoghurt as a low-fat product at the same price as a full fat product, may be even higher, plus they make money selling to you! You win also, saving time, effort, etc. and create a regular supply. Choose someone whose milk, cream and yoghurt taste very delicious to you, and whose cows look happy and clean, whose calves are well cared for. Then you are all set. [Or, find a "Greek Yoghurt" manufacturer; that is a high fat product, 12%. Problem is that they use homogenized milk! Also, milk from regular dairy farms may be 14 days old before it reaches the plant. Beware of this fact. That is why creamery butter can NEVER equal that from fresh milk.] Make sure that your milk is hours old from the cow; Indian scriptures use the term YAATAYAAMA, or older than 3 hours to indicate stale milk or food that is unacceptable. Freshness equals flavor in the finished product.

Milagai, I have repeated in several of my posts, the local environmental conditions in each Indian locale, the milk (cow/buffalo, moning/evening/mixed), the traditional degree of sourness to which the yoghurt is taken, the microbial flora prevalent in each locale, how long the butter is stored before melting, how long the ghee is stored before marketing, each of these imponderables contribute to the flavor and texture of desi (country) ghee. It can be approximated, not replicated, with European-style cultured butter. I never claimed to provide A grade desi ghee from off-the shelf cultured butter. Perhaps the conditions there are not right for the right types of microbes to grow (too cold? 41-48 versus 111 F for yoghurt), or the time not long enough for the flavors to develop? I don't know. On the other hand, my limited experience with the cheese plants in Cache Valley, Utah, suggests that their humdrum Muenster cheese and the duration of culture favor microflora that create flavors very similar to pure desi ghee. Whether the Muenster from other cheese plants in North America will also exhibit this profile, I cannot tell. This Muenster ghee is for eating by the drop on steaming rice, or dispensed by the drop on hot mashed potatoes. You get the idea: like exquisite olive oil or balsamic vinegar, it is pure flavor, not a fatty indulgence. So, not for cooking, where the stuff made from melted butter works well enough, I dare say.

"Your description of fat seems to indicate to me that traditionally in India, unadulterated cow and buffalo milk was used (meaning that these milks ranged from 5-7 for cows and 9-10 for buffalo as they came from the animal). But considering the small yield of the final product, I might want to see if I could produce a higher fat yogurt initially in order to end up with a final higher yield. Is my interpretation correct?'' Very "You mention cooling the milk slowly. This interests me as others have advocated the specific use of rapid cooling (in an ice bath) for yogurt making. I have a series of experiments I am planning to conduct on yogurt making but I haven't yet tested this variable." Cooling the milk slowly need not be the best biological method because it allows a fat'skin' to form on the surface, which then needs to be dealt with. However, when you are dealing with large quantities of milk [5 liters +] economics steps in, plus the added inconvenience, not to mention danger, of handling volumes of hot liquids [unless you are from Quebec, where its 9 months of natural refrigeration and 3 months of tough sledding!!] In the culturing step you say "accumulate several days worth of skins", I take this to mean that once the yogurt has set after incubation, I "culture" it in the fridge for several days. Skins will form after a certain period of time, and I should allow the mixture to culture long enough to acquire several skins? And once the yogurt is set, all that there is left to do is let the yogurt culture for a few days in the fridge otherwise undisturbed? Once the yoghurt has set, you will see the fat layer or skin simultaneously has appeared on top. Now you can take the yogurt just a tiny bit further to the slightest bit of tanginess, or if you prefer sweet i.e. non-tangy yoghurt, stop right there. Skimming off the fat layer will necessarily bring with it sufficient yoghurt to accomplish the culturing process. Each batch will provide ONE skin only. So today's yoghurt provides skin 1, tomorrow's skin2, etc. Once the skin or fat layer is skimmed, what remains is low-fat or even non-fat yoghurt. (It will not produce another skin.) The remaining yoghurt could be sold as a value-added product, to offset part of the cost of the ghee-making process. You have a very good Low-fat yoghurt on hand that can and should be employed in creative marketing ways to recoup some of your costs. Only the fat layers need be accumulated, along with their residue of yoghurt, in their cool/cold glass menagerie, for the culturing process. This will anyhow last but a few days, say 3-4, as you experiment and find your sweet spot re: your microbial environment. "I also wonder about the specifics of "squeezing and mauling"? My loose plan at this point is to get a good working understand of the variables involved before proceeding. I still have a number of yogurt making experiments to conduct, and I think I might finish these before I attempt this ghee, as if I embark on an endeavor of this magnitude I would eventually like to produce a truly wonderful end product." I am a skinflint, being raised in a hardscrabble farm, which experience may be familiar to many Quebecois of an earlier generation. If the economics are right, the easy and efficient way is to pour a quantity of cold yoghurt, say the upper half containing the fat layer, into a mechanized churn and rapidly extract the butter. Then keep the butter for some days, accumulating more butter, then slowly bake them off into 5-10 kg of ghee. The quantity helps in some peculiar way in the melting and liquid crystal formation; i don't know how. Rate of change? I don't know on what scale you are planning to operate, so i opted for the parsimonious, home-style end. Here, a pair of butter paddles may be used, or bare hands, as in India, to pummel and squeeze the accumulated fat layers of say 4-6 days, squeezing them between your fingers and palms in cold water that has crushed ice in it, until all the milky white fluid runs out and you are left with pasty globs of butter. This you agglomerate into a rough mass and put into a deep ceramic or enamelled baking dish and slowly bake it until clear golden, and the residue under it is nut brown and all the foaming and spluttering is ancient history. Incidentally, do you have any idea what kind of yield I am looking at based on an intial milk/cream volume? I still know very little about buttermaking, but does your last post indicate that 5-10kg a milk will produce a single quantity of 750g of butter? Yes. The US standard whole milk is 3.5% fat, the normal average for Holstein type cattle. However, do check my maths, which is terrible. BTW, Cabot sells its cultured butter for approximately $13/lb at Greenstar Coop in Ithaca. However, do try the Muenster thing on a minuscule scale, say 200 grams, if only as a benchmark for aroma volatiles.

Gabriel: Most or at least a substantial quantity of 'pure desi ghee' in northern India is made from buffalo milk because of its higher fat content, between 7-10%, depending on breed, feeding and the time of milking and other factors. The maximum butterfat in native Indian cows would generally hover around 5% although 7% has been recorded for elite Red Sindhis evening milk and some Siris; but this is the transient exception. Consequently, your milk mixture need not exceed 10% fat, although you may simultaneously set up 2 experiments at 15% and 20% fat to see if the microbial populations are adversely affected or not. If not, then you are left with less solids to dispose of, and can carry the experiment further until the point is reached where the microbial activity is suffering owing to the fat content. Milk & cream mixture scalded [almost to boiling point] to destroy naturally occurring enzymes. Keep covered, slowly cool to 111-112 degrees Fahrenheit. Using clean hands and techniques, Innoculate with live culture full fat yogurt that tastes good to you, 1 teaspoon per liter, brought to room temperature, mixed with a little of the warm milk and then thoroughly mixed in. Incubate at constant 111-112 F. Should set in 6-8 hours. A thick yellow skin should be visible. For buffalo milk, this yellow color will be lacking, owing to the absence of carotene. Scoop off the skin, and this will obligatorily carry with it some small amount of the yoghurt. Place in a GLASS container with a cover that can be left in a place that is around 36-40 degrees F [such as a refrigerator]. This will be the culturing step. Accumulate several days worth of skins. Here is where you need to be very careful: See if things are turning brutally smelly or BITTER or GREEN; BAD SCENE; things could smell a tiny bit like dirty socks or even sex, [you know, basmati rice and a tiger's strong musk share the same compounds, but its a matter of degree]! Be careful, use your intellect and cooking smarts. You can make butter out of this (small?) quantity by sqeezing and mauling in a largish basin of cold water [those hands will ache, use rubber gloves, non-bitter] This butter can be gently baked at 250F for good quality ghee. OR, just find some very cheap Muenster cheese, melt it, squeeze out the fat, and taste it, to teach your taste buds what ghee might taste like. An Indian farms would make fairly large quantities of yoghurt, say 5-10 kg worth of milk per night, fermented to a very slight tang in northern India, and churn it for say 750 grams of butter per day. The buttermilk is consumed by a large family, and the butter saved as the 'cash crop' or for later use. But what would you do with so much buttermilk, unless you have a ready market for genuine buttermilk or are raising high-value pigs or cattle? Alfa-laval or De-laval used to sell home-sized motorized churns, and Agriculture Canada can help you find sources for home churns if you are interested. Happy experimenting. Don't be discouraged if an initial attempt or two seems daunting fraught with failure. Don't worry about specific cultures, unless you are lucky enough to have a source from where you can order such; then you should specify 'high diacetyl forming species' like streptococcus diacetylformis. warm regards, g

Re "good Indian" : what could that mean? a) Food that is delicious to a native from a particular region or ethnic background -- we have had a few such, notably Swagat that existed for a time opposite Kalustyan, right next to Pongal, around the early 1990s. It used to serve home-style Bangladeshi dishes, excellent hilsa in mustard paste. Problem is that the larger US public have propelled to fame some of the 6th street Bangladeshi establishments [i remember visiting one on the strength of Jay Jacobs (Gourmet restaurant critic) review, and coming away aghast], and lately another one that shall remain unnamed, based on their own specific tastes. These tastes may diverge considerably from what might be considered "very good' by native subcontinentals. As a result of this disjunct, excellent cooks like Payal Saha may fail to get the recognition they truly deserve. On the other hand, flamboyant personalities well-connected to the right circles, with a gift for self-promotion and a flair for innovation, may, and do, turn out, excellent food, that is inspired by their Indian roots but is not necessarily 'traditionally' Indian. [To be fair, it must be said that many such foods do NOT lend themselves to restaurant service, either in terms of pace or presentation]. All of this is a very good development, a step forward in the evolution of a restaurant tradition of Indian food. Only curmudgeons like me bemoan (occasionally) the blithe assertions that there are no good Indian restaurants, when it seems to me that there is yet not yet enough critical mass, not enough people educated in the nuances of regional Indian food to accept those cuisines as they are, without imposing sometimes ignorant yet arrogant assumptions as to how 'Indian' food should taste. Indian chinese is a case in point; US reviewers quite ignorant of its very interesting recent history, (and I mean this very seriously) copy each others mistakes, yet affect an air of great familiarity!!!!! Times are changing! There may be hope, especially if cooking schools in the subcontinent pay more attention to training chefs in authentic regional traditions.

An excellent CTM recipe here: Monica Bhide's The Everything Indian Cookbook pg. 24 and pg. 98

Just going to add my final 2-cents worth; generally i get very pedantic, which is why i choose not to make 'lofty pronouncements' and hide from the forum . However, sometimes, one does get carried away......... Fo the sake of history, and helping people understand Indian foodways a bit more accurately, at least from the perspective of someone who has grown up with watching all of this as an integral part of one's family/community life. What i describe is generally true for the north-western quadrant of India, its major dairy quadrant, plus the nothern continental plain in general. Milk and millets, supplemented with some lentils and pickled fruit/vegetables comprised the mainstay of the farming classes in times past. The semi-arid hot climate and seasonal rains meant that milk could be preserved mainly as its dehydrated fat/oil [for the longest-lasting, most valuable] form, and certain solids that kept for far shorter periods. Indian milch cattle were bred for high butter fat milk. Two types of butter was commonly known: sweet cream butter, and the one churned from yoghurt that had been set with scalded, cooled, milk innoculated with the regional/local favored cultures of lactobacillus, streptococcus etc. but that always produced a substantial amount of volatile fatty acids, diacetyls etc.ec. [You realize that sweet cream butter extracted from fresh cream would have fewer of these compounds. ] The yoghurt was churned with much effort *[so much so that the sweet cream butter is called 'anaayaasa' in classical Sanskrit, meaning 'without effort'] and the resulting butter was stored for however many days the local climate /tradition dictated, and slowly cooked down. This is the pure, ideal DESI GHEE, like country ham, bayonne ham, prosciutto, etc. it implies a certain flavor profile, that continues to develop as it is amenable to storage underground for more than a year. This is also akin to the middle-eastern smen. The controlled cooking and controlled oxidation produce liquid crystalline structures that are grainy when cold, and a characteristic flavor profile. There is a second type of DESI GHEE produced during the cooler months, in certain areas,with another distinct liquid crystal structure and flavor profile. This involves skimming the 'clotted cream' or skin [saraksira] that rises to the after BOILING [note, not scalding, as above] and cooling. After several such collections are made over several days, the mass [which is undergoing microbial activity] is slowly melted down until brown crispy chewy bits are left. Sometimes, a handful of citrus leaves are added at the last moment to simmer, supposedly adding some preservative quality to the ghee. This ghee retains its carotene far more than the first desi type, but its liquid crystals are quite different. The chewy milk protein bits become a delicious snack, called khankri in Bangla, mixed in with puffed rice, to which fresh grated coconut and sometimes a bit of palm sugar may be added. Fresh and hot from the cauldron, this is indeed a sublime treat. Hope i have clarified why clarified butter is not the same as what is expected of PURE DESI GHEE. As noted before, the complex flavors can be had by melting down a quantity of Utah Muenster cheese and separating the fat: voila, excellent desi ghee! Otherwise, Vrindavan, [Windtrader, this is for you] comes in glass bottles, 1 lb $8, picture of the child Krishna playing flute, cow in background, is similar, but not same, to desi ghee. Milagai, Cabot Cheese brands sells a culturedbutter--very expensive. Otherwise, go to Chowhounds, step-by-step directions. Or make yoghurt out of fresh, non-homogenized Jersey milk, supplemented by high quality fresh cream, churn in blender or automated milk churn while very cold, reserve lo-fat buttermilk and you have cultured butter the Indian way. * reflected in a churning song from near Punjab: Gur gur doodh biloye jathni ke bacce roye rote hai to rone do hamko doodh biloyne do gur gur [sound of the churning] babies of the village are crying if they cry, let them cry [unthinkable for indian moms in general!] let us keep churning the milk [guess who did the churning!!]

Hi Ojisan, If I may be pardoned for a presumptuous comment, here is an idea you might want to consider before buying either an expensive Sumeet or the even more wonderful Ultrapride plus [see innoconcepts website]. A flat grinding stone [12 -14inch size] and roller should set you back $ 15 [don't pay $20] from a Bangladeshi or Indian store in Brooklyn, Flushing, LA, SF etc. With a little practice, this will turn out really excellent wet pastes, fine grinds etc. Assuming you already have an ordinary Oster-type blender, it can do initial, rough, wet or dry grind for a few seconds, leaving you to finish off the rest on stone with remarkably little effort. The stone is my daily pepper mill, cilantro-mint chutney maker, garlic crusher, pesto maker etc. It washes clean with just plain water, stacks on its side. I use it resting on a heavy duty Sanituff board that permanently spans one half of a double sink; with the sink sprayer, clean-up is a breeze. Of course, one must be psychologically attuned to the device. For example, a Thai cook might be uncomfortable without his/her mortar/pestle, just as i am happy with something from my natal culture that might otherwise feel and look awkward to another. But think on it!

Melted, dehydrated, sweet cream butter produces butter oil, not ghee. No diacetyls, no complex aroma whatsoever. So in spite of treating yourself to the infrequent luxury of the expense, the calories and the cholesterol, you are simply missing out on one of the real reasons for using ghee. Cultured butter will produce ghee, but the price is prohibitive in the US. Superb ghee [equivalent to the best grainy gaowa ghee of Bengal] is produced by melting and extracting the fat from mild Muenster cheese as produced in standard cheese plants in the US, but this pre-supposes your living close enough to such a plant so that you can purchase economically bulk quantities/trimmings. The Vrindavan brand of ghee is the closest US-produced brand to traditional ghee and you may be sure that the cows have been kept in humane surroundings. Most others are really butter oil and say so on their label. If you can find Indian canned ghee [not vegetable ghee, which is hydrogenated oil] of various brands like Amul, best with the NAFED seal/ mark, then these are good for cooking or deep frying. If you live near NYC, SF or LA, your search will be simpler. Otherwise, IMHO, stay with the Vrindavan brand. That is what I have always used. Best, g