v. gautam

I am unfamiliar with this fruit. The one sour Rajasthani/Haryanvi sour fruit i do know is 'teent' or 'phog' usually found in panchranga pickles, Capparis dioica, a relative of the caper. gautam

Parsis have an excellent dish where whole Alphonso mangoes are cooked with chicken. I do not have a recipe, but the Mumbai folks should be able to clue you on this. regards, gautam

There used to be cooking series on PBS, Cooking with Kurma. This gentleman was an Australian member of ISKCON, and did some interesting things in a strict vegetarian mode. in one episode, he cooked avocadoes and potatoes. Anyway, if this series is available in India, it is quite interesting to watch. gautam

Yes, lal doi is how most Bengalis call it, as mishti doi means sweet dahi which can also include chini-pata doi or dahi set with white sugar. Red Sindhi cows have an excellent breed germplasm both at Karnal and at Army farms. As the breed is very gentle and top quality is still available from Karnal, it would be very useful to have in Karnataka. nowadays, milk quality from Italian Red mountain cows etc. are being touted for their superior qualities, and the time is soon coming when we shall also begin to realize the exquisite taste of the milk from our own milch breeds. gautam

Doc Jones, Could not believe A.... Sa... and that too directed at the esteemed Ustadsaheb himself!!!! At this rate, only Naropa will be of help!! Calm down, write to Dr. Richard Campbell, Fairchild Tropical Gardens, Florida. He can recommend purveyors who can supply mangoes far better than the usual.Also, do not forget the Palisade peaches in Colorado. regards, gautam

Kewra essence is extracted from the male flowers of Pandanus odoratissimus, especially those growing along the Orissa coast. The perfumers are all U.P./Bihari Muslims, using medieval techniques! An excellent venture capital area? There are many other species of Pandanus, important in South-east Asia and New Guinea. You know of the ones used in Thai cookery, where the leaves are used to impart an essence + green color; similarly, in Bengal a species is used for its leaves which are occasionally cooked with rice to impart a ‘kheer’ flavor, not color as in Thailand. Pandanus fruit is important for the ancient inhabitants of Malaysia-Micronesia, and they utilize a number of species unknown in India. As for identification, I am sure that botanists at Lalbagh will be able to answer your queries. Regards, gautam

Thanks, Episure. Can you remember if the gur you bought was called patali? Date Palm patali or Palmyra [toddy] palm patali? Note that date patali is the only one of interest here, and that it will not have along shelf life [a few months] beyond January, when it is made in Bengal. Also, most patali nowadays is probably adulterated with cane sugar. [bTW, Karnataka used to have a huge date palm industry but where it has disappeared I do not know. This palm holds one key to the Kaveri waters disputes, but that is for another time.] Anyhow, if you have good patali, it can be stored in the freezer. The way to use it is to cut off a chunk, soak in water until a slurry results, then add it at the last moment to boiling ‘kheer’ that has had the heat switched off under it, and has come down from a boil. This is to prevent any curdling and to preserve the gur’s flavors. Pray pardon my suggestion that gur has no place in Bengali sweet red yoghurt. Patali is perfectly acceptable shaved into ordinary plain yoghurt. For the ‘red’ yoghurt or lal doi, caramel [white sugar] is the flavoring, NEVER patali. Lal doi depends on high fat cow’s milk, not buffalo, boiled down, and then allowed to dehydrate [and thicken] further in an unglazed pot, much like the Middle Eastern labneh. At home, you may replicate this process with a can of sweetened condensed milk. Take some freshly made cow’s [Red Sindhi] evening milk yoghurt, not sharp or sour. Make caramel and dissolve in some hot milk. Stir this and condensed milk [1can, 12-14 oz] per 500-800 gram yoghurt [experiment to find your sweetness levels]. Incubate at 110 degrees F for an hour or two. Note also that the particular microbial cultures that confer the excellent taste are the real issue. In my opinion, you should certainly make a trip to Kolkata in the winter and eat the sweet dahi at Bhim Nag at Bahubazar [bowbazar]. No other place, especially the supposedly famous Ganguram’s, Jalajoga, etc.comes near their excellent flavor. Regards, gautam

Try saffron.com for excellent Iranian saffron. Also, in many Indian rice dishes, saffron is balanced by kewra [pandanus, screwpine] essence; the right balance between the two, with undertones of white pepper, cassia leaf, cinnamon etc. contributes to the symphony in biryanis. regards, gautam

"i can't imagine why asparagus, or leeks for that matter, could not be incorporated into a bengali "panch mishali" tarkari. one would have to select the other 4 vegetables carefully to match, but i think it could be pretty good. in fact, i am inspired to try this this week (bong, gautam, any thoughts?). ' Right on the mark. Calabaza, new potatoes, broccoli/cauliflower stems?, know you dont like eggplant, a few slices of cabbage leaves?, daikon? keep it all 'winter' vegetable, as in Bengal, or all 'summer' vegetables, do you suppose? Cilantro, of course Btw, shallots= madras onions= piyaj koli or shallot flower stalks; delectable with new potatoes and shrimp heads or tangra type fish [whitebait? smelt?] so why not leeks too, as a possible replacement of piyajkoli? Also, how about both leeks & aparagus in Bengali khitchri? regards, gautam

Dear Mongo and Edward, The gur/jaggery being discussed here is sugarcane, in all probability; whereas the payesh etc. you both refer to are prepared exclusively from the sugar date palm gur [Phoenix sylvestris]; payesh from patali' gur , a hard cake, and sandesh etc. from 'nolen' an amber syrup made from the caramelized sap early on in the tapping season. The nearest substitute in the US is maple syrup. The cane jaggery will produce an unacceptable resultfor payesh and sandesh. regards, gautam

Pan, The younger generation appear to be comfortable using such identifiers as ghoti, bangal or bong, perhaps as a younger generation of Americans of color non-chalantly [and with pride] use certain racially-sensitive epithets. my own generation which has lived through Partition etc. are not comfortable with such terms, and in our homes, the language would not be accepted as polite usage; affectionate usage, yes, but only among intimates, much like the word 'ni .....' denotes intimacy [and affection, ownership of one's heritage etc.] in certain specific contexts.

Mongo, Your suggestion actually encompasses a lifelong dream, to present the foodways of the Rarhi and Daksinatya brahmans, as a glimpse into the evolution of Bengali cuisine. Chitrita Devi, Banerji, has made a praiseworthy effort to depict the cultural and religious matrix within which Bengali foodways must be cognized, but still her social class and urban upbringinging represents a point further along the evolutionary scale than what I am familiar with. Note the use of onions in her Aloo-posto recipe. Anyway, i admire what she has tried to do, and hope someday to add a little stupid something along similar lines. Your request for recipes makes me wary, knowing myself to be a demented, wordy fool. I would very much like to post a thing on Bengali chutneys, but fear to torment the friends on this forum. If you are game, and can handle all the offers of assasination at your end, with utmost humility one is tempted to try. Regards.

Pan, You have just touched upon a very sensitive issue, on 2 grounds: One, the deliberate immiserization/marginalization of women in 18th/19th century Bengal, keep them barefoot and pregnant, as it were--there is more to this than can be dealt with in these forums. For example, a whole pumpkin could never be halved by Brahman women; they would have to wait until the eldest brother in law could make himself available for this duty. All manner of symbolic and ritual content too recondite for this place. People still sarcastically refer to a useless layabout as "kumro kata barthakur' or pumpkin cutting elder brother-in law. Why not knives: another sensitive area touching upon Hindu-Muslim relations [Muslims use knives] and upon the symbolic use of knife 'kartari prayoga' in ritual sacrifice, male standing erect, knife touching ground etc. that i am not comfortable discussing here without elaborate context.

Mongo, just to add another perspective to your delicious chick pea dal: onions and garlic were a strict no-no in the food of my childhood, not even permitted in the kitchen, but the younger generation could indulge if cooked on a portable stove in the courtyard. Hence, no onion or garlic paste, on the single grindstone, on which all spices for consecrated food [puja bhog, esp. Kali Puja] were ground. Even lentils Lens culinaris, mushoor dal, were classified as non-vegetarian' for certain purposes! The chickpea dal of those kitchens then, also very similar to that cooked in the various confectioners and served with luchis: Here is a rare dish where the fragrance of fresh ground turmeric is actually emphasized and desired, not strident but still noticeable; also, the dal like all my childhood cuisine, is syrupy sweet with jaggery, cane molasses. Chickpea dal, boiled to tenderness, but still firm to the bite, yet slightly disintegrated around the edges to provide thickening; turmeric, salt, jaggery Sambhar or tarka: ghee, cassia leaf, whole red dry chili, cumin seed, asafoetida Consistency: rather thick, chickpeas prominently visible in liquid. This was the one dal never eaten with rice but with luchi, kachori, or even chapati.

Episure, Could you please comment on how the metal tandoor is similar to/different than the sajj, the convex dome used to bake roomali roti. This dome seems to be flatter and resting directly on a charcoal fire? the cobbles under the fire are interesting, as is there not an Iranian bread called sangak, after the pebbles on which it is baked? Re Puns, lookking at the photo, I see why this is truly Pao Roti!! Regards.

Just a redundant aside to the thread, but one which might provide a glimpse into how difficult food preparation can be in traditional India, with serious danger to the women who are left to handle such tasks, while men enjoy the gustatory delights served up to them in style. Green jackfruit is quite heavy, at least 4 lbs+, encased in a thick, hard, spiny rind even at a young stage; when cut, it exudes copious quantities of a sticky sap, similar to that from rubber trees. The sap is extremely sticky and congeals upon release; women rub their hands with mustard oil, and balancing the fruit in both hands, drive it down the blades of a bonti, an infernal device : a curved blade attached to a wooden slat, used on the floor. Bengali friends can attest to its non-ergonomic and inimical design. Cutting vegetables entails that the thumb push the hard vegetable right up to, and resting on, the very sharp edge. Peeling requires two-handed manipulation of the infernal fruit and its thick, sticky rind around a most recalcitrant implement, that bonti. This lethal sticky-slippery combination is what must be dealt with to prepare 'enchor' for food, besides blanching. Other killer vegetables are the banana floweing stem and the chalta fruit [Dillenia]. BTW, in Bengal, even straw was cut into pieces [for cattle] by an larger, serrated, bonti; a more lethal combination is hard to envision.

Concur with Mongo and Bong: only time I have come across radhuni is in panch phoron. However, roasted and ground panch phoron is the indispensable final touch in both West Bengal shukto and "chutney". If you like, i could send you or post [be warned!! smile] a general outline of what "chutney' means in Bengali foodways; interesting and quite distinct from other indian foodways, it signals the end of a meal and is a prelude to dessert. Regards.

This thread reminded me of a feature of Indian society that greatly intrigues me: little enclaves of transplanted ethnic groups survive for generations in their adopted homes, sometimes with much, sometimes little, penetration of the majority community’s flavors into their foodways. One such community are [is?] the Saurashtra Brahmans settled in Madurai; today, a number also call the U.S. home. I hope some of them, or those more familiar with this community, will shed some more light on their particular redactions of Southern vegetarian specialties. Their rasam, kuzhambu and amti are different than their Tamil counterparts. The rasam pudi [powder] is coarsely pounded, redolent of black pepper, and used in a rasam heavy with garlic and green chilies, boiled with the toor dal supernatant and tamarind, but untempered with mustard or cumin seeds. Not all Brahman communities in Tamil Nadu [and elsewhere in India] seem to enjoy so untroubled a relationship with either garlic or onions! (The Poondu rasam that appears in Tamil Brahman cookery is fettered by umpteen caveats ) At any rate, the Saurashtra rasam is a very delicious variation on this staple, and one hopes that this post encourages someone familiar with this cuisine to share some insights with us.

Dear Friends, Very, very naughty!! Do give Mr. Smith a chance to describe his breads, without further hassles. Love you all. Mr. Smith, anxiously waiting for your detailed descriptions of your adventures with bread; particularly, have you made Tandoori Roti, and if so, what flour(s) gave you the best results? Also, with naans, do you find the ones using only chemical leavening to cook drier -less puffy, stretchy- than ones using some yeast as well? do you have any advice re developing a 'gluten window' for naans; am very interested in the extensibility factor in the breads you have made. Finally, how about stuffed naans? your thoughts and successes with them. Thank you so very much for putting up with this sustained Inquisition. Warmest regards. P.S. Episure, will PM you in a day or two.

mongo, dear friend, bhanaye buddhu gautama, atishaya kAtara, dayA jAni nA chorobi moye; Have you seen the old movie, Vidyapati, in both the Maithil and Bengali versions, with Kananbala'a songs? The thought of your Maithil retaainer and his litties {darbhanga = dvara-banga, as may know] brings this line to mind, especially useful re: zakat. Please treat bouma to this movie, and please persuade her to post her own take of he experiences in India!!!! regards.

Vikram, This demented creature, having just posted a huge bunch of nonsense elsewhere on this forum, dare not torment friends with its lunacy for a long while here. But before dying, I pray that I get to meet you and Mongo in person. Want to go over the minutiae of Kolkata non-Bengali Muslim Biriyani point by point, cuts of meat, texture of fat, soaking of rice, texture [yes] of yakhni, use of khoa, mace and white pepper; will take minimum of 2 hours, at which point, you both will be forced to strangle me [smile], and I shall die happy, having passed on the torch. Dear friend, from an epicure such as you, “too much rice” is a non-sequiter (spelling?). Gautam. P.S. Bittman’s dish appears to be a pulao; Punjab is renowned for its chicken pulao, but that not biriyani. Would it be permissible to suggest that only chevon or lamb enters a biriyani, not poultry? As well, without the saffron-kewra, mace-nutmeg, cassia leaf-white pepper, shahzeera-khoya duets in the overall symphony, the undertones buttressing the overtones of cardamom-clove –cassia and meat fat, the richness cut by alu bokhara [sour plums], aged ghee and gelatinous [but not mushy meat, the fat especially not completely custardy but balanced on the cusp of doing so] etc.etc. defines this work of art and technique. Without meaning to offend, I would venture that Bittman's recipe is symptomatic of that disturbing trend that trivializes biriyani until nothing is left of it original self; here we have frozen foods labeling themselves “chicken biriyani OVER brown rice”; a very sad day.

Please do pardon this post as the ramblings of a demented fool. One find that the regular kitchen blender does not do a satisfactory job [this is purely a personal taste issue] with either black mustard, white poppyseed, or cumin-coriander-black pepper paste. In fact. The result so disappoints me that I have given up preparing these ultimate favorite flavors of mine, until the day I get a grinding stone; even then, the characteristic Bengali pestle [nora] that is an oblong, faceted cylinder gives a different texture than the half-moon shaped north Indian device. The delicate nuances of Bengali dishes are evoked by 2 elements, in addition to fresh mustard oil: ‘phoron’ prepared from relatively freshly harvested seeds, fresher than the year(s)-old stuff available to us; the use of stone-ground spices; even so simple a flavor as turmeric or ginger works its peculiar magic best when stone ground. That said, one way to more practically approach the ideal texture is to soak the mustard and poppyseed for a few hours to overnight, and then process in a mini-blender attachment provided with some brands, e.g. Oster. The regular blades occupy a much greater volume of a smaller space that also confines the seeds, unlike the regular blender container [much like the effect Bengal has meted out to its inhabitants ]. Less water is required to process the mass, which further aids in comminution. In a post on Q&A-South Indian breads, one had posted a query as to the usefulness of the mechanized stone grinders, like Shanthi, one sees advertised but has never used. Would someone using these machines comment? Finally, as regards mustard oil, like olive oil from various provenances matching the corresponding cuisines, viscosity, freshness, acridity etc. all combine for a effect and mouth feel difficult to duplicate here in the U.S. The bottled oil sold here may be ‘improved’ by the addition of a very acrid Korean “mustard” oil sold in small bottles. Mongo’s posts has evoked such painful nostalgia that one would respectfully request this forum’s permission to enter a recipe for a Bengali tomato chutney. The aim is to help those unfamiliar to this cuisine peek into the world of its flavors. [For decades, one has obsessed over the agricultural/botanical, social, and historical currents contributing to the evolution of the food ways of Bengal, 1750-1970, or more narrowly, “the cuisine of the Rarh gentry.’” Almost 600 pages of garbage explore just the rice-date palm economy of central Bengal alone, and its contributions to the evolving cuisines of the eastern [Vangala] and western [Rarh] cultures. A line drawn from Mayapur-Nadia to Kolkata defines the watershed and confluence (if these opposing metaphors may be employed) for the evolution of both cooking and the modern Bengali language, and the Rarh gentry [note that this term is used in a specific social sense, and is divorced from the economic, just for preliminary arguments] were the matrix incubating and translating rather impressive currents of change not excluding Modernisation. From this last emerges the willingness to incorporate elements of Muslim cooking, e.g. onions and yogurt sauces, that then became landmarks and now pave the way for the rapid influx and development of new foodways. One’s generation spanning the mid-century owes the next some musings (if only for the sake of historical continuity) of what we experienced, for this time was a crucible for change, the flames being want, despair and immeasurable violence. Low and negative agricultural growth rates since the beginning of the 20th century sowed the seeds for the holocaust that began in Bengal in 1933, continued through Partition [1947], and re-emerged 1966-67, and again 1970-71, 71-74 [bangladesh and West Bengal respectively]. Food [or its scarcity] informed the psyche of Bengal in a way that succeeding generations hopefully will never have to experience. (The issues of food and eating touch such raw nerves in those of one’s generation, especially those reared in the devastation of rural Bengal, that one sincerely apologises for intruding such stark and unwelcome strains in this forum)] Anywhoo, Chitrita Devi, (Banerji) has made a seminal contribution, in the Hour of the Goddess and in Bengali Cooking, addressing some of the deep societal underpinnings of Bengali foodways; one prays that her work not become trivialized by it a long-delayed recognition in the circles of North American gentry interested in foodways and food history. It is in this spirit of trying to inform, that one would venture this recipe, more as a glimpse into Bengal than as a food. In a very clumsy fashion, one would beg friends to understand that any trace of ego is as far removed from this endavor as it is humanly possible; would beg friends to ignore completely the uncouth finger pointing to the moon, and instead enjoy the beauty of the moon. Again, apologies for the uncontrolled verbiage occasioned by the ‘madeleine and cup of linden tea’ of Mongo’s posts. Respectfully, Gautam.

Owen, NYSEG [a utility company] and Cornell together operate a pilot project on Rte.13 [near Rte.366] Freeville/Ithaca, growing hydroponic boston lettuce. i have had no luck suggesting that upland cress [barbarea] and wasabi could be usefully grown in those parts of the greenhouse that receive the lowest light levels. perhaps you might be interested to weigh in on this, as it involves our tax dollars. In syracuse, Ahn's oriental store at Erie and Teall carry a fine line of Indian groceries, including prepared foods, breads, sweets and good mangoes.

Suvir, Shiewie, Pan, and any eGulletteers who have tasted ripe jackfruit, palmyra palm fruit [borassus flabellifer, tal in India, but found from Africa to Indonesia], woodapple [Feronia], how do these compare to durian? I love all of the above but have never tasted durian. Curiously, excellent longans grow in Bengal, but their flavor is deprecated and that of lichees esteemed.

bong, Thanks very much for your detailed and excellent posts. Given the rapidly changing circumstances, many dishes involving skilled laborious preparation might well drop out of the food memories of this generation of upper class bengalis. Things like banana stem, banana blossom, Dillenia fruit[chalta], Feronia [kvathbel], green jackfruit come to mind. It is heartening that reasonably good restaurants are catering bengali specialties; in my time , Suruchi was the sole example. In reply to your query, i am merely a student of plants. regards.