Spaghetti Code

[Carrot Top]

I have to wonder how the history of the hamburger and sale of store-bought ground beef relate to the American dish of spaghetti and meatballs.

While it doesn't answer the M & S question,

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Much quicker to make a sauce and serve it with meatballs than to do a long-simmered ragu with other meats as might have been more traditional, for sure. Those neat little packages of ground beef have been a perennial favorite of the homemaker. Time-saving. Inexpensive. I still know people who know how to cook basically only things made with "hamburger meat". ( )

You had me puzzled for a minute with that "M & S" thing, though. Phew. Reminder to myself: Don't flip letters while reading.

[Pontormo]

One more comment: I should have mentioned MEATLOAF and not just hamburgers above.

[srhcb]

Speaking about the historical context of meatballs, at least tangently, let us not forget a song by Hy Zaret and Lou Singer which was published in 1944.

I'll always remember Captain Kangaroo's plaintive rendition of the popular ballad, One Meatball; "You get no bread with your one meatball."

SB (was a big fan of the Good Captain )

PS: Songwriter Hy Zaret's talents were apparently wide-ranging. In additon to "One Meatball", he also co-wrote, with Alex North, the eternal love song, "Unchained Melody".

Edited March 1, 2007 by srhcb (log)

[Carrot Top]

I thought you were going to cite the "On top of spaghetti all covered with cheese, I lost my poor meatball when somebody sneezed. It rolled off the taaaaable and onto the floor and then my poor meeeeeeatball, it rolled out the door" song.

I think this song deserves recognition as the historic reminder it was, to an entire generation of Americans, to love and to eat spaghetti and meatballs whenever possible.

[srhcb]

I thought you were going to cite the "On top of spaghetti all covered with cheese

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The best known version of "On Top of Spaghetti" is the 1963 recording by Tom Glazer.

Another of Tom Glazer's recording projects was, in conjunction with singer Dottie Evens, a six record set called, "Singing Science", intended to teach scientific concepts to children. (three of the six records were recorded)

Oddly, the songs on "Singing Science" were written by none other than Hy Zaret and Lou Singer, of "One Meat Ball" fame!

SB (small world )

[Adam Balic]

This may not prove completely reliable since we date Latini's tomato recipes in Naples to 1692 (sauces  ?), more than a century and a half after the fruit had been introduced to Europe, however after tracing the early history of pasta, meatballs & sauces,

At the very end of the 17th century Latini published a recipe in Naples that is rather similar in concept to a Mexican salsa (pretty much anybody who has seen the recipe makes the same observation), but not very similar to a cooked tomato sauce

Francesco Gaudentio's 1705 recipe is cooked and more similar to what we would recognise now. It also suggests that tomatos were much more widely accepted and cooked in Italy then is obvious from the records that exist.

The second edition 1797 Leonardi's work is often quoted as the first tomato and pasta sauce, but doesn't seem to be correct, as the recipe is for a tomato culi, without mention of pasta (I must check this for myself when the text becomes avalible). Some sources say that the first published example didn't occur until 1839! Italian's were migrating to America by this time, so it would be interesting to document pasta with tomato sauce in America.

[russ parsons]

after 15 years as an ardent italo-phile, i can attest that there is no stronger urge (after making a good dinner) than to say: "That's not Italian." I've heard cooks say it about incredibly similar dishes served 20 miles away. the magic of italian cooking is that it resists (maybe refuses) codification. it is an aesthetic, not a set of recipes.

the only real question is what would a good Italian cook do when faced with a certain set of ingredients in a certain context. and one thing that's frequently overlooked is how much Italy has changed in the post-war era. It's only 60 years, but in that time much of italy has gone from an economic situation not unlike the American south just after the civil war to booming modernism. it really is nearly unbelievable the level of poverty the mezzadria system involved. people were not living on acorn polenta because it was classic Tuscan cuisine. so when they emigrated to the United States and achieved a relatively high standard of living, perhaps they were a little over-exuberant. but that doesn't mean they were italian.

[Pontormo]

Russ, you need no apologia. You also make an important point that is developed much more dryly but in fascinating detail by Carole M. Counihan in Around the Tuscan Table. Food, Family, and Gender in Twentieth-Century Florence. The anthropologist was formerly married to an Italian and conducted extensive interviews with all her living in-laws. The eldest complain bitterly not so much about the scarcity of their early lives, but of the fact that Florentines eat way too much of increasingly inferior food...or at least that's what I recall as the gist of it. The expression "poco ma buono" recurs in their remarks--"little but good"--to describe their preferences and what they recalled fondly when they did have something to eat.

I will never forgot the widow of one of Mussolini's generals--unwittingly my landlady in Florence--speak of the period when her husband was a prisoner of war and she had "only one egg, ONLY ONE EGG!," she stressed, pointing her finger in my face, with which to feed her family.

Edited March 2, 2007 by Pontormo (log)

[russ parsons]

for a really fascinating (and not at all dry) first-hand account of what that life was like, read "War comes to the Val d'Orcia" by Iris Origo. She was an Englishwoman married to a member of an important tuscan family. she tells of visiting the various share-cropping farms on her family's estate during World War II and the matter-of-fact way she describes the absolutely appalling poverty is illuminating (this is not to imply that she is some heartless aristo ... quite the contrary). this is a truly remarkable book, made all the more so when you stop and think that this feudal world she is describing happened during our parents' (and in some cases, our own) lifetimes.

[Fat Guy]

after 15 years as an ardent italo-phile, i can attest that there is no stronger urge (after making a good dinner) than to say: "That's not Italian." I've heard cooks say it about incredibly similar dishes served 20 miles away. the magic of italian cooking is that it resists (maybe refuses) codification. it is an aesthetic, not a set of recipes.

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What puzzles me is the source of the compulsion to say "That's not Italian." It seems bizarre and exclusionary, especially against the backdrop of a constantly evolving, globally influenced set of regional cuisines.

Perhaps it would be helpful for Italophiles to think of North America as an Italian culinary region. There are, after all, something in the neighborhood of 26 million Americans of Italian descent (as in, at least one Italian grandparent, a definition that would include Steven Anthony Shaw, aka Fat Guy, named for my grandfather Anthony Pugliese). That's more than any region of Italy, a country whose whole population is about 58 million.

Given all the exchange going on between the Old World and the New -- tomatoes going from the New World to the Old and then returning as part of Italian-American cuisine; corn from the New World becoming polenta; Canada growing much of Italy's wheat; pizza as or more popular in North America as in Italy -- it seems silly to take the narrow, historic-preservation view, especially since the history is ever changing.

[russ parsons]

i prefer to think it's mostly a matter of people loving something and wanting to be protective of it. and there is SO much bastardized italian around--stuff made thoughtlessly with horrible ingredients.

but there does seem to be something inherently italian about it. i can't even begin to count the number of times i've heard people say that--sometimes even about each other's food. on the other hand, i can't remember ever hearing someone say "that's not french" (except when i was trying to speak it) or certainly "that's not american."

[srhcb]

-- it seems silly to take the narrow, historic-preservation view, especially since the history is ever changing.

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Maybe that's what differentiates "history" from "heritage"; the former being factual and constantly evolving, and the later being personal and static?

SB (believes both views are appropriate)

[srhcb]

but there does seem to be something inherently italian about it. i can't even begin to count the number of times i've heard people say that--sometimes even about each other's food. on the other hand, i can't remember ever hearing someone say "that's not french" (except when i was trying to speak it) or certainly "that's not american."

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Perhaps that has something to do with the stereotypical Italian trait of being argumentative?

But I will point out that people from Eastern European countries, with their historically ever-shifting and overlapping boundries, do comment quite pointedly on even minor infractions in traditional dishes to the effect that the food in question is most assuredly not Serbian, Croatian, Montenegrin, Slovenian, Hungarian, Romanian, Slovak, Polish, Albananian, Bulgarian etc.

SB (believe me, I've heard it often enough! )

[hathor]

after 15 years as an ardent italo-phile, i can attest that there is no stronger urge (after making a good dinner) than to say: "That's not Italian." I've heard cooks say it about incredibly similar dishes served 20 miles away. the magic of italian cooking is that it resists (maybe refuses) codification. it is an aesthetic, not a set of recipes.

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What puzzles me is the source of the compulsion to say "That's not Italian." It seems bizarre and exclusionary, especially against the backdrop of a constantly evolving, globally influenced set of regional cuisines.

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In my experience, in Italy, what I hear is more along the lines of, "that's not Tuscan" or 'that's not how we do it".... The emphasis here is on very localized cooking. The 'Italian' identity rests lightly on their shoulders, while regional identity is the essence of their soul.

I disagree with this sentence: "It seems bizarre and exclusionary, especially against the backdrop of a constantly evolving, globally influenced set of regional cuisines." My neighbors, in Umbria, have no interest, whatsoever in 'global influences' on their cuisine. My friends in the Marche, would smile sadly because they know that their produce, fish, meat, wine, air quality, etc. is superior to anywhere else.

It is somewhat bizarre. It is certainly exclusionary. But it exists, nonetheless.

Russ, you are the third or fourth person to recommend "War comes to the Val d'Orcia", so I guess it's time to track this book down! Thanks for the reminder.

[Fat Guy]

My neighbors, in Umbria, have no interest, whatsoever in 'global influences' on their cuisine.

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So they use no tomatoes, corn, artichokes, chocolate, peppers, potatoes, coffee . . . .

I hasten to add, how many actual Italians do we have posting on this topic?

[srhcb]

how many actual Italians do we have posting on this topic?

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This is the internet. We have "virtual Italians"!

SB (or e-Italians )

[russ parsons]

it's the reverse of of the old internet gag:

"on the internet, no one knows you're not Italian"

Russ Parsoni, 2007

[russ parsons]

So they use no tomatoes, corn, artichokes, chocolate, peppers, potatoes, coffee . . . .

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i think this is missing the point. most people have no concept of food history. foods that were new to their parents are considered traditional if they themselves grew up eating them. i think the point is that most italians (save a few upper middle class housewives who read "silver spoon") have no interesting in "evolving" their cooking beyond where it is now (unless they happen to see something good at the store and it gives them an idea ... but you know how that goes).

In the US, we are passionate about exploring and stretching. i just came back from my favorite ramen place. yesterday it was indian and the day before these killer tacos. in italy, in my experience, "foreign" means something 20 miles away. and while it may be fine for those other people, they just don't care for it themselves.

eta: and when italians DO attempt to stretch, the results are usually extremely clunky--enough to make american fusion cuisines look inspired. nothing sends a chill down my spine like the phrase "italian hotel restaurant salmon."

Edited March 2, 2007 by russ parsons (log)

[Adam Balic]

In regards to food, I have never heard an Italian (in Italy) say "that dish X is not Italian". On many occassion I have heard then say "That dish is not Tuscan/Chiantian/from Gaioli/the way that my mother makes it". I don't think that there is much of a concept of "Italian" cooking in Italy itself.

I don't think that this is a specific Italian thing. Everybody does it. Americans with BBQ for instance. I once spent Christmas with some Canadians that insisted that I had ruined Christmas dinner by serving it in the evening and cooking roast pork for a main. In terms of my experience in Italy, my in-laws insist that the way that tripe is cooking in the next village (in a tomato sauce) is just not right (they serve is cold, with olive oil and salt/pepper). I think that this is pretty standard human behaviour and applies to attiudes other then food.

My Tuscan brother-in-law has moved to Melbourne for the last year. While he says that the food is good, he says that he rarely bothers to cook dishes that he is familar with from home as the raw ingredients are just too different. The lamb here is much older (and not milk fed), the pork has a very different fat content and is very pale, the zucchini are not the right type, the tomatos are fine, but the exact type he wants isn't here, the cuts of meat are completely different and dairy products are very different. A simply dish or braised zucchini* just doesn't turn out 'right' here.

I think that there is a different in acknowledging that a dish is just not correct, in terms of resemblance to familar item and being protective or exclusionary about a cuisine. The latter could be applied to comments by Americans in Australia that our BBQ are not really BBQ as they are actually grills. While this is certainly true, it doesn't take into account local history and usage of the word.

* the variety of zucchini used is called lungo fiorentino, it is different to most of the strains as the fruit is picked just as the flower opens, so it doesn't have time to explan after fertilization. The simple reason for this is that the unfertilized fruit is about 15 cm long (rather then a few cm in other varities). They have an intense flavour, firm un-fibrous texture, are not watery and have tiny seeds

[Adam Balic]

Perhaps it would be helpful for Italophiles to think of North America as an Italian culinary region. There are, after all, something in the neighborhood of 26 million Americans of Italian descent (as in, at least one Italian grandparent, a definition that would include Steven Anthony Shaw, aka Fat Guy, named for my grandfather Anthony Pugliese). That's more than any region of Italy, a country whose whole population is about 58 million.

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This I think is what a lot of people perceive as a very American attiude (rightly or wrongly). My father was born in Australia, therefore I am of Croatian descent, but I am not Croatian. By descent I am also about 1/4 Scottish and I lived there for 6.5 years, but I'm not Scottish either. My son was born there, maybe that makes him Scottish? I'm not sure, but one thing that is certain is that one sure fire way of pissing off a local is for somebody to say "my great-great-great grandfather was from X, therefore I am an Xian".

I think that leaves Italian-Americans in a peculiar situation. By decent you might be 100, 50, 25 etc percent Italian and consider yourself culturally and Italian (-American), but in reference to the original country, I'm not sure that counts much to the people that remain there. In a country were much of the cuisine is intensely local, it must appear very odd for a group of people to say "this is an Italian recipe", with not reference to a particular region or custom. This isn't the same situation in some diversely spread populations, for instance colonies or ex-colonial cusines.

It might be a useful (and I think that it is) intellectual framework to consider Italian-Americans as being a seperate Italian region, but in practice this just doesn't work.

[divina]

I am 52 and have lived in italy since 1984, so going on 23 years now..almost half my life.

Although no italians in my heritage, I feel Florentine.

I married a Florentine...and was taught by him and his family and friends, the food and culture of Florence.

I must say..as mentioned above, that sure doesn't make me Italian, or give me any expertise on food from more than 20 miles away.

The excitement for me in Italian cooking and cuisine, is that recipes have remained untouched in certain areas. I have neighbors where I live in Certaldo ( near San Gimingnano) that have NEVER been to Florence.. NEVER seen the sea!

There are people here that lived through the second world war with NOTHING and remember well what that was like.

That Italy is dissappearing and a new generation with frozen foods and burgers is growing! International restaurants are taking over old trattoria's and foam is ever increasing in the" finer dining" restaurants.

The recipes which formed one's culinary history are dissappearing.

Very few families have any written records of food.

A very interesting project was published in Siena, in Italian, recipes collected at a old persons hospice.

Facinating!

Even here in Italy, without getting into the Italian -American problems.. noone can agree on a recipe.

The beauty of cooking!

I am in the progress of selfpublishing recipes I have gathered and teach here in Florence. I started in 1988, eavesdropping while shopping at the Cental MArket and writing down the variations on recipes that I got while shopping.

I would innocently ask my butcher for a recipe while a group of women were standing in line waiting to shop.

"How do I prepare that beef for stew?"

The butcher always defered to the clients..

" start by sauteeing red onion with carrot, add the beef, red wine and tomato cook till done."

When that lady left the next was quick to say" NEVER use red onions, noone uses tomato sauce, only wine and I add ( secret ingredient)."

If I chose my group well, I would end up with about 5 different recipes for the same dish.

Now I have My versions.. are they Italian.. I think so..

I also feel Italian, sometimes more than My Italian friends that don't cook often.

or haven't travelled..

Contaminated recipes.. ???

perhaps..

Isn't that what cooking is all about!

My culinary roots..

My mom was raised in Shanghai by a Russian mother and a father born in Paris to a Turkish father and an English mother who was then moved to America joined the Army and was stationed in Shanghai where he met my Grandmother.

My mother gave me no culinary roots..as she had grown up with cooks in her family.

I remember my grandmother making about 5 recipes.. borcht, piroski, pascha and kulich, bagels and halvah and Sukyaki.. for parties.

My mom beef stew and curry dinners..

but their American recipes were basically non existant!

Where did my mom learn to cook for us?

What is my culinary heritage?

[Franci]

but there does seem to be something inherently italian about it. i can't even begin to count the number of times i've heard people say that--sometimes even about each other's food. on the other hand, i can't remember ever hearing someone say "that's not french" (except when i was trying to speak it) or certainly "that's not american."

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Perhaps that has something to do with the stereotypical Italian trait of being argumentative?

Maybe French cuisine is not as widespread in the US as Italian food and has not been mistreated as much.

My neighbors, in Umbria, have no interest, whatsoever in 'global influences' on their cuisine.

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So they use no tomatoes, corn, artichokes, chocolate, peppers, potatoes, coffee . . . .

I hasten to add, how many actual Italians do we have posting on this topic?

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Come on, those ingredients have been integrated in the local diet of Europe for centuries...

So they use no tomatoes, corn, artichokes, chocolate, peppers, potatoes, coffee . . . .

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i think this is missing the point. most people have no concept of food history. foods that were new to their parents are considered traditional if they themselves grew up eating them. i think the point is that most italians (save a few upper middle class housewives who read "silver spoon") have no interesting in "evolving" their cooking beyond where it is now (unless they happen to see something good at the store and it gives them an idea ... but you know how that goes).

In the US, we are passionate about exploring and stretching. i just came back from my favorite ramen place. yesterday it was indian and the day before these killer tacos. in italy, in my experience, "foreign" means something 20 miles away. and while it may be fine for those other people, they just don't care for it themselves.

eta: and when italians DO attempt to stretch, the results are usually extremely clunky--enough to make american fusion cuisines look inspired. nothing sends a chill down my spine like the phrase "italian hotel restaurant salmon."

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Don't you think you are a little unfair here. I've been spending years on Italian cooking forums and I can assure you there are a lot of Italians who are very well travelled and have a good culinary knowledge. And saying that in the US you are passionate about exploring...I am not sure. Yes, maybe in NY, New England or California but I remember travelling across country and that was so painful to think that the only food I could get was a fast food hamburger.

Sure, in the US I can find every kind of food and ingredients but quality is kind of mediocre from my point of view. In Italy you'll find local ingredients and not much variety but the standards are higher. Yes you are right, we should forget fusion attempts...

Perhaps it would be helpful for Italophiles to think of North America as an Italian culinary region. There are, after all, something in the neighborhood of 26 million Americans of Italian descent (as in, at least one Italian grandparent, a definition that would include Steven Anthony Shaw, aka Fat Guy, named for my grandfather Anthony Pugliese). That's more than any region of Italy, a country whose whole population is about 58 million.

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This I think is what a lot of people perceive as a very American attiude (rightly or wrongly). My father was born in Australia, therefore I am of Croatian descent, but I am not Croatian.

....

I think that leaves Italian-Americans in a peculiar situation. By decent you might be 100, 50, 25 etc percent Italian and consider yourself culturally and Italian (-American), but in reference to the original country, I'm not sure that counts much to the people that remain there. In a country were much of the cuisine is intensely local, it must appear very odd for a group of people to say "this is an Italian recipe", with not reference to a particular region or custom. This isn't the same situation in some diversely spread populations, for instance colonies or ex-colonial cusines.

It might be a useful (and I think that it is) intellectual framework to consider Italian-Americans as being a seperate Italian region, but in practice this just doesn't work.

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I do not consider Italian Americans to be Italians, I think of them as Americans. It really bothers me in the US to be corrected for my Italian pronunciation: it's not capicola (capocollo), guangiale (guanciale), rigotta (ricotta), bruscetta, g-nocci, but my favourite beeing sfoghliatelli (I cannot even say that). In my mind the knowledge of the language is a big point.

[Pontormo]

I really wanted to immerse myself in (Sardinian cuisine) this month since it is a piece of my heritage I am not really aware of or connected to.  I started of the month with my mother and my Aunt Mary on the phone for the family history.  My grandfather came from the Island of St. Peter, was a cook on a merchant ship from age 14, jumped ship in NYC to skip Ellis Island and never looked back.  Not much exists from his culture since when he arrived here he became totally committed to be American, he didn't speak or teach Italian to his children and never went back to the old country.  His dream was to become a wild west cowboy like "hoppalong casadich"....

...While I am not of Italian descent, I have lived in a number of Italian-American communities and have witnessed exactly what you've described.  (I think I've posted about it in terms of a midwestern butcher whose family was relatively isolated from others who shared his Italian roots.  He was insulted when I asked for a certain Italian cut, saying "I am in America now!  I drive a BMW!)...

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Some of the more recent posts, especially Adam's, remind me of so many earlier exchanges we've had including this. The desire to assimilate is not universally shared by Italians in the United States, but there are definite historical patterns to take into account, including the fact that Italian identity was tied negatively to class in the 19th century, especially, but also throughout the 20th century. Culinary traditions are left behind not only because you can't find zucchini or the zucchini isn't as flavorful

(sigh ) when it becomes widely available. I now live in a city where ATM machines include Italian as an option for patrons to read and it is common to hear conversations in Italian while riding the Metro. The latter has a kind of caché nowadays that didn't always exist.

The process of assimilation is one reason why someone of Italian descent feels she has to go back to Italy, to a part of the country where chirping, priggish Brits don't let down their hair after visiting monuments listed in their Baedekers, far from the place Diane Lane buys a house where she can kiss a yummy native hunk. I believe Kim Severson was looking for something authentic when she began her quest for her family's spaghetti sauce. One of the major points of the article in the NYTs was that the thing that she was searching for just wasn't there.

As for the call for preserving "authentic" Italian regional dishes in light of the ever-changing nature of history? Preserving, documenting and searching for different signs of the past--often inspired by ever-changing notions of history--is something historians both value and do. Signs of historical change usually alert you to the fact that there was something earlier that has altered and it might be a good idea to discover what exactly it was in order to figure out why and what caused either its modification or obliteration. Now that food culture and culinary history enjoy increasing interest, more and more information is becoming available. Kim Serverson's aging aunt in Abruzzo serves as a living source of both family history and culinary history. I think that rusty ladle in the banner to the article, photographed by someone with an Italian name, is, in fact, the zia's just as the caption indicates. It would be interesting for readers of the NYTs who know little about Abruzzo to read the journalist's best attempt at a recipe for what her aunt does when making tomato sauce. (A tomato sauce. Not the only one she ever makes.)

Speculation, only, but I think "authenticity" might have been as much a factor behind the revised edition of Paula Wolfert's book on the cuisine of Southwest France as it was among the countless people responsible for making ingredients and tools accessible to home cooks in the English-speaking world that were omitted in the original edition. The regional cooking of Italy deserves scrutiny as well, even dishes that never influence menus of what professional critics deem the best of the world's restaurants.

N.B. BBCode prevents use of brackets for the reference to Sardinian cuisine in the first citation here. Editing required to fix code.

Edited March 3, 2007 by Pontormo (log)

[hathor]

I debated mentioning this, but I just think it's too funny not to share with you.

I've been invited by Chef Lenny to be a judge at a meatball contest. South Philly v. South Jersey. Oh my.

After my little hissy fit about Italian-ness and authenticity, this must be some sort of cosmic payback.

What can I say? Other than all this talk about meatballs... I had to have some for dinner.

And my recipe comes via my Sephardic mother-in-law, who came from Turkey and used Ritz crackers as a key ingredient.

[Pontormo]

Well, Judith, all I can say is that it is not our place to judge...