To Lie or Not to Lie

[K8memphis]

I totally understand everyone's point of view.

But it is totally none of the potential lady customer's business.

There's no deceit in not telling especially if it will harm your bottom line.

It's not like there's allergies involved or something.

I'm not saying lie. I'm saying don't tell.

Y'all haven't run a food business--the most of you--especially a bakery.

[K8memphis]

I think we should preface each post with I own or have owned a food business for profit or not. Because otherwise you only have your own limited experience. Where that's wonderful that you would admire somone for revealing non-vital information about their process but not everybody feels that way by a huge longshot. Way too many pre-conceived notions about food for it to be ok to 'tell all'.

[K8memphis]

How can it ever be better than to tell the truth?

←

Well for starters in answering the question,

"Honey, do I look fat in this."

The truth should always be balanced with grace.

[markk]

Okay, people in business should always tell the truth. You keep skirting around it, and that's dishonest, especially when somebody asks you a question. The customer said she'd like brownies that were baked the day she picks them up. If you can't tell which days you bake them, or bake them the day she comes, then you should tell her that they're frozen the other days. Only bad things come to people who lie, and that's especially true of business owners and politicians, but except for when your spouse asks you "do I look fat in this dress?", telling the truth is always the best way to ensure that people don't get hurt, ultimately, by your lies.

If you care more about the sale of 8 brownies than your integrity and reputation, it's not going to bode well for your business.

[Melanger]

Honesty is great and all but there is no way that I would tell the brownie lady about the freezer. I don't think that there is and harm in catering to her delusions of self-importance - like I would would actually sell her crappy product unless she specifically asked that I not. Come on. Some customers are irrational and overly demanding. She has obviously been happy with the product up until now. That's the product she ordered and that's the product she is getting.

It is impossible to run any bakery or pastry operation without a freezer. I agree with K8, if you haven't been in a professional situation you wouldn't understand. It isn't worth your reputation trying to pander to one customer who obviously has no understanding of the inner workings of a commercial bakeshop. How do you think I get the bombes out of the flexo molds? How do you think we cut the individual pastries so cleanly? How do you think I get that cake solid enough to carve into a three dimensional basketball for little Jimmy's 7th birthday? How do you think I can make enough mousse cakes for the week? How do I keep up on choux for eclairs? Yeah, I thought so. Didn't want to know that huh?

They want to buy into the illusion of the fresh happy little bakery and I am more than glad to fuel that delusion and they are more than willing to purchase my tasty wonderful treats. Its a win win situation. Besides, my palate is better then theirs, and if frozen tastes freaking good to me than there is no way that 99.9% of the consumers out there are going to know or should know the difference. Don't ask, don't tell.

[markk]

the woman wanted them baked the same day she came to pick them up.

If you accept her order as she expressed it and then fill it with brownies baked another day, you are lying.

The concept of "don't ask, don't tell" has no application here. It may in many other aspects, but it doesn't here.

I once took a pleated tuxedo shirt to a dry cleaner whose ad specifically said "hand finishing". But to be sure, I called to verify that, and they said that's what they do. When I got the tux shirt back the day of the event I needed it for, the pleats looked like they hadn't been pressed properly at all - they looked like they were a cheap wash and wear shirt - the shirt couldn't be worn. When I complained, the woman told me "that's what happens when you press them by machine". I reminded her that I called to verify 'hand finishing', and she told me, "well, that's really just an expression, you know." But she lied to me, and I had nothing to wear with my tuxedo. Of course, her fellow dry cleaners would probably tell her that's the right thing to do; we wouldn't want customers micro-managing our business, you know.

But as I say, if you accept her order as she expressed (brownies baked the same day she comes to pick them up) it and then fill it with brownies baked another day, you are lying to her. Can you negate that?

[JeanneCake]

Many years ago in one of my first specialty baking classes, someone said "I never freeze anything!" And the chef rolled her eyes and said "freezing something does not make it bad". It was a lively discussion!

I think the consumer at large has the perception that freezing means you are baking a ton of things on one day and selling those very same things a month later.

I have people ask me on a regular basis "do I freeze my cakes" - and what they are really asking is "how far in advance are you making my cake and are you keeping it fresh by freezing it until I come to collect it?" I've also had people ask me why I am baking their cake on Wednesday if they are coming to get it on Friday and I explain the process of baking on day 1, assembling on day 2 and they pick up on day 3. They ALWAYS ask "will it be fresh?" to which I reply "what?!" and that's when they say "won't the cake be fresher if you bake the day I pick it up?" And I tell them they'll have to pick it up after 9 pm if they want it the same day. No one has ever taken me up on that - which reinforces my opinion that they're really asking how old something is. Maybe because in the food business we're trying to eliminate waste so we're trying to push stuff out the door - first in, first out. How many of us will bypass a sell-by date on perishable things for a later one when we're grocery shopping?

The issue is the general public's perception that freezing is bad or is trying to mask an old product. They forget that they buy chicken on sale or prepared food and bring it home and freeze it themselves.

I'm not advocating lying or being deliberately misleading. If the customer wants the brownies on the day they're baked, that's when they can pick them up. If they want them a different day, they'll be frozen first.

[K8memphis]

If you care more about the sale of 8 brownies than your integrity and reputation, it's not going to bode well for your business.

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The problem is that when the baker reveals their trade secrets it does hurt their reputation. There are enough posters here with businesses saying it. It will hurt their bottom line and their reputation. There are many many false ideas about food in general and baking in particular that a baker does not have the wherewithall to turn the tide on decades of wrong notions.

It's really not that big a deal at all. I grin, and say "trade secret".

Some people would never make it in the bakery business.

[greenbean]

As much as I don't like to lie, and am very bad at it, there is such thing as too much information. People don't like the word frozen and I am hesitant to say it, not because freezing is bad, but because it comes with a stigma that cannot be shaken. I guess I just felt put on the spot and at a loss for a response. What I was thinking in my head was "Are you kidding me lady?". But instead of that, I found myself trying to assure her that the brownies would be good. This was the first time I had received this kind of request. As absurd as it seemed to me at first, it simply illustrates a lack of understanding.

Most people bake a pan of brownies and (if they are not all eaten) let them sit on the counter until they dry out. I'm sure this was her fear, but, lucky for her, I know better. The term "fresh, never frozen" has turned into fresh=good, frozen=bad, despite the fact that we would all be lost without a freezer.

Perhaps my question shouldn't have been "to lie or not to lie", but more like "how do I answer a question like this?". This goes back to a thought I have about what people want vs. what they think they want. She thinks she wants brownies baked that day because in her mind that is what is required for a fresh and moist product. What she wants is great brownies, which is what she will get, despite the fact that they were frozen.

Perhaps I will just give information on a "need to know" basis.

[markk]

She thinks she wants brownies baked that day because in her mind that is what is required for a fresh and moist product.

What she wants is great brownies, which is what she will get, despite the fact that they were frozen.

Those are two very different statements.

Just put yourself in her shoes. Do you like people deciding what you think you want versus what you really want? Can you see the harm in that?

Your second thought is probably right. But the honest thing to do is tell her that you freeze them afer baking so that they stay at the peak of freshness, rather than getting stale, and that they taste identical to "fresh baked", but that since it's impractical to bake every item evey day, that's the best way to ensure great baked goods. Explain it to her just like you explained it here. She'll respect you for it.

Think about what happens when people assume that they know what you want, what's best for you, and what you "meant" to say. As I said earlier, she's probably planning on freezing them herself to thaw and eat at a later date. Your scenario didn't account for that, or for any other possibility of why she asked that. With your explanation of giving her what you think she wants, not what she asked for, she'll get twice frozen brownies if she freezes them, and then when they're mushy and horrible and she tells people that they were, you'll have only yourself to blame.

[greenbean]

I didn't assume that I knew what she thought she wanted, I know what she wanted because she told me. She thought she needed to have them baked fresh the same day so they would taste good. In the end, all she wanted was moist, delicious brownies. I didn't try to think for her, but I did attempt to find out what she was thinking. She told me that they would not be eaten for two days and didn't want them to go stale. I told her I would wrap and freeze them for her. She could then take them home and keep them frozen until she needed them.

When I was told of her request, I actually went and talked with her. She explained to me the situation and I assured her the quality of the product and told her to contact me if there were any problems. I did not assume, I inquired, then I came up with a solution that worked for everyone. And I wasn't trying to give her what she thought she wanted, I was trying to give her what she really wanted, good brownies.

[markk]

So, in fact she was perfectly fine with the idea of frozen brownies? There wasn't a need to lie after all?

I would say that if you had told her that that's what you do each day to ensure moist and fresh-tasting items in the case, she would have been fine with that then as well, no?

[greenbean]

Actually, I never had any intention of lying, it was more a question of how to address this kind of request. However, I do agree with many of the other professionals who posted that too much information is a bad thing. People think that bakeries are staffed with Keebler elves working around the clock when in reality we work with limited oven space, limited freezer space and a finite twenty-four hours in a day. Do I need to freeze product to be able to offer over thirty-five varieties of items a day? Yes. Do people need/want to know that? Not really. There is a fine line between telling people the truth and giving more information than is necessary.

[tannerz]

How to answer.... First, I need to know more about the customer. Is this a one off? Is she in every day with her 5 kids buying out my case? Does she do large business with me?

If she is not a regular customer, buying more than a cookie, and spends less than $50.00 a week then: "We are baking (insert whatever they want fresh here) next Tuesday, they should be ready for purchase by 2:00PM. Otherwise, a batch makes 25 (whatever), and we will need 48 hours notice, and you will need to buy the entire batch"

If she is a regular, spending $50.00+ a week: "Hi Margaret, so nice to see you. How are your 5 kids? How was your Daughters wedding? Did everyone like the cake we made? Here, have a cookie while you shop for your pastries. What? Sure, we can fresh bake you some brownies. 8? Yeah, I don't see a problem with that, as long as you give me a day or two notice."

My freezer conversation is as follows: "It depends on the demand of any certain product, and the production schedule. None of our items are frozen more than a few days."

It only comes out with a customer I have a true relationship with, that understands I provide a superior product for the price, and appreciates what I do. Even then, it takes some serious pressure for me to say the F word.

If Americans knew what their food was going through on a daily basis, not just bakery, but EVERYTHING, they would be horrified. They don't want to know. If you are not in the industry, you can't understand that. They want a good product at a good price.

Side note:

Things I bake off fresh daily: Scones, Croissants, muffins, cookies. NOTHING, N O T H I N G, is prepared from complete scratch day of. Even muffin mixes have components that are made in large batches and assembled day of.

Everything else gets made every few days.

If you are shopping at a bakery that says they don't freeze anything, and they are offering more than 5-7 items in their case, they are either lying or losing MASS amounts of cash, and will be closed in a few months. Ethical/Religious/Allergic issues aside, if the product is good, don't ask how it is made. Do you really want to know that I have to use a quart of Red Dye #5 to make your Red Velvet cake? I didn't think so...

[Majra]

Actually, I never had any intention of lying, it was more a question of how to address this kind of request. However, I do agree with many of the other professionals who posted that too much information is a bad thing. People think that bakeries are staffed with Keebler elves working around the clock when in reality we work with limited oven space, limited freezer space and a finite twenty-four hours in a day. Do I need to freeze product to be able to offer over thirty-five varieties of items a day? Yes. Do people need/want to know that? Not really. There is a fine line between telling people the truth and giving more information than is necessary.

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I completely agree with your thinking. Honesty and full-disclosure are not the same thing, not in any area of life and including the bakery business. You don't have to "open your robe" to anyone; a healthy degree of self-preservation will serve you well. If applied skillfully there is no ethical dilemma even. In your situation with the customer, you could follow her question about baking the same day with another question, "Are you concerned about the freshness of the product?" Then wait for the reply, and provide assurance that the brownie will be as moist and delicious as always.

[markk]

Do you really want to know that I have to use a quart of Red Dye #5 to make your Red Velvet cake?

You're damned right, I do. And I think you have a terrible attitude for a food merchant. What if I have a child with a disorder that's worsened by a chemical colorant? What if that dye is carcinogenic, and I'd prefer not to ingest it because my mother and sister died of Cancer?

I have a right to know what's in the food that I buy; if your Red Velvet cake has Red Dye #5, I'd like to know so that I can avoid it. For you to make decisions for me, and for you to attempt to deny me the right to choose, is reprehensible.

So is your statement, by implication, "If she is not a regular customer, buying more than a cookie, and spends less than $50.00 a week then I don't care if her son goes into convulsions because of one of the ingredients in my food that I won't divulge".

I think that every customer should assume that if you're keeping secrets from them, that you're keeping really important ones from them, like the fact that you probably don't really clean down your machinery after use, or keep items refrigerated that need to be, or tell the truth about which foods have known allergens because you can't be bothered to keep them separate. Now that I know you're lying about the Red dye #5, I have the right to assume that you're lying about everything else, you know. You opened that can of worms yourself.

And as far as your implied statement, "If she is not a regular customer, buying more than a cookie, and spends less than $50.00 a week then I don't care if her mother and her sister died of cancer, she's going to eat carcinogenic ingredients here!" ought to be punishable by jail time. She has a right to know what's in the food you sell her so that she can make an informed choice.

If Americans knew what their food was going through on a daily basis, not just bakery, but EVERYTHING, they would be horrified.

That doesn't give you the right to poison me so that you can save a few bucks on natural food coloring!

[tannerz]

WAIT ONE DARN MINUTE HERE!!!! ANY product not approved by the FDA isn't used!!! Red dye #5 was just a term used for any food coloring.

I didn't make ANY decision for you. If you don't want to eat non-natural ingredients then it falls under the caveat of Ethical/Allergic/Religious I put in the stupid post.

And don't IMPLICATE ANYTHING. I won't tell a customer my baking habits, but ALL of my ingredients are open for questions. You are making some broad reaching statements about someone for whom you don't know. NO WHERE in my post did I say I kept ingredient information from anyone that asked I was using it as an example for what typical things people don't WANT to know. (aside from choosing a carcinogen to make the point, fine, substitute Red Dye #5 with Red #2, if that makes me less of a Murderer in your eyes)

You really need to calm down a bit before you hit the post button, maybe re-read what you are about to write, and NEVER imply anything about ANYONE you don't know, nor twist their words.

and just so you know, 90% of what I make is certified ORGANIC...

edit: I used a stronger word for darn, the word describing an abutment holding back water.

Edited February 11, 2007 by tannerz (log)

[markk]

Do you really want to know that I have to use a quart of Red Dye #5 to make your Red Velvet cake? I didn't think so...

You asked a question, answered it on my behalf, and you got it wrong.

I do really want to know.

I don't like dealing with food preparers who decide things on my behalf, because they usually do get it wrong - they draw assumptions and conclusions based on their own needs, not mine. And, they're not mind readers.

By the way, I don't eat non-natural foods, and the reason is neither Ethical, Allergic, nor Religious. That's another assumption that you made on my behalf that you got wrong.

Your statement here is nonsensical, and incorrect: "If Americans knew what their food was going through on a daily basis, not just bakery, but EVERYTHING, they would be horrified. They don't want to know. If you are not in the industry, you can't understand that. They want a good product at a good price."

You have no idea what I consider a good product. Yet again, you're making decisions for me and puting words in my mouth. If you've done it three times in the space of one short post, I have a right to shudder at the thought of what other decisions (ingredients, food safety, sanitation) you're probably making on my behalf when you're handling food and I can't see you.

One of the people agreeing with you in this thread (K8memphis) has posted in mumerous other forums that she has health issues regarding "fats" in her diet, which she needs to avoid. So naturally, when you prepare anything that she's going to buy, and it's cheaper for you to use trans fats, and makes a "better tasting", and "fresher" product as well, you're going to use the trans fats, and decide that this is something she doesn't want or need to know about, right? "If she is not a regular customer, buying more than a cookie, and spends less than $50.00 a week then she doesn't need to know that we bake with trans fats because the products taste fresher and cost a lot cheaper than if we used butter, and I don't need her micro-managing my business." Isn't that what you implied?

Are you going to tell me next that cleaning all your equipment on a nightly basis requires too much staff and adds too much to the cost, and decide for me that what I really care about is a product that tastes good anyway and costs a little less? I have a perfect right to assume that you are, based on what you already wrote.

[tannerz]

""If she is not a regular customer, buying more than a cookie, and spends less than $50.00 a week then she doesn't need to know that we bake with trans fats because the products taste fresher and cost a lot cheaper than if we used butter, and I don't need her micro-managing my business." Isn't that what you implied?""

ABSO FREAKING LUTELY NOT!!!! I implied that a customer that does not spend X amount of dollars in my bakery does not get special treatment in regards to if I will make a special batch of "day of" brownies. PERIOD!!! Imply nothing more of my post!!! If you WANT to know what is in the food I prepare ASK, and I will tell you. IF you have certain criteria for what you will and won't eat it is UP TO YOU to ask for that info, for which I will gladly tell you.

And my original post was in no way, shape or form, directed as a reply to ANY of your posts. It was a reply to the original question. I am not making any assumptions as to what you SPECIFICALLY want to eat.

You have a right to assume anything you darn well please to assume. The fact that you are wrong won't change your mind, and I really don't care.

And sorry I forgot to add Nutritional to the reasons for eating Natural foods... happy now?

I don't think I'll be replying to any of your comments in the future.. Assume all you want.

[markk]

Do you really want to know that I have to use a quart of Red Dye #5 to make your Red Velvet cake?

Yes.

I hadn't meant to enrage you, and I'm sorry if I did. So many of the bakers here are saying that customers don't need to know so many things, and that they don't want customers micro-managing their businesses. But this is true of every business that there is. People want to micro-manage their car repair shop so they can get their car sooner, people want to micro-manage their web designers because they think they know a better way to do something, people want to micro-manage their supermarket so they get the products they want, and bascially people want to micro-manage everything. But can you imagine what life would be like if everybody decided to withhold information about everything because they don't think people want to know it? It'd be sheer and utter chaos.

If Americans knew what their food was going through on a daily basis, not just bakery, but EVERYTHING, they would be horrified.

Well, we can work to change that.

I hope that K8memphis will chime back in. I understand her concerns about fats and sugars hidden everywhere in processed foods, because she and I were taking that same argument against other posters on another thread. I'd like to know how she would feel if the people preparing some food that she bought that didn't have to have ingredient labels decided that it'd be better for her if she didn't know the hidden fat content of the food, for all the reasons she and the other bakers are giving here for withholding other types of information.

In the case of the red food dye, I still think that the best answer is one that was given to me when I asked about the trans fats in an appealing-looking cake I saw at a bakery. The baker said, "yes, it's made with trans fats. To make it with all butter would add about $12 to the price of the cake. Would you be willing to pay that?"

Edited February 11, 2007 by markk (log)

[tannerz]

see.. I think maybe things went too far too fast... I WANT people to know what I put in my products, BECAUSE I do care about Organics. I don't want customers micromanaging when I bake something, but if they have a special request, as long as it is feasible, and time allows, I will more than likely take care of them. If they come in demanding something, then the door also opens out. I am a firm believer that I don't want every customer I can get, and am glad I don't get average Joe in my bakery.

I am a huge proponent of slow food, and yes, I would rather pay 12.00 for that cake, and have, and have customers that do too... We only use trans fas in 3 products, and in the next month those will be gone too.

All you have to do is ask, if they won't tell you what is in it, walk away. I not only tell you what is in it, I let you look at the actual recipe card..

The problem comes when they do lie a bit and say that it is organic/natural/trans whatever... but you need to have a good relationship with the people you purchase your food from... That is where (the majority of) Americans will fall short. They don't want to know how a pig is slaughtered and prepared, just that it is yummy bacon. Those who choose to know the entire food chain of that 'we're not certified organic, but we're organic" cow, will know why they aren't certified... It takes A LOT of research..

I was not advocating the ignorance, I was being disgusted by it.. maybe that didn't come through clearly enough...

now, I have a sailboat to go race.. Have a nice day...

[markk]

In that case, I wish we had more food merchants like you!

[K8memphis]

Do you really want to know that I have to use a quart of Red Dye #5 to make your Red Velvet cake?

Yes.

I hadn't meant to enrage you, and I'm sorry if I did. So many of the bakers here are saying that customers don't need to know so many things, and that they don't want customers micro-managing their businesses. But this is true of every business that there is. People want to micro-manage their car repair shop so they can get their car sooner, people want to micro-manage their web designers because they think they know a better way to do something, people want to micro-manage their supermarket so they get the products they want, and bascially people want to micro-manage everything. But can you imagine what life would be like if everybody decided to withhold information about everything because they don't think people want to know it? It'd be sheer and utter chaos.

If Americans knew what their food was going through on a daily basis, not just bakery, but EVERYTHING, they would be horrified.

Well, we can work to change that.

I hope that K8memphis will chime back in. I understand her concerns about fats and sugars hidden everywhere in processed foods, because she and I were taking that same argument against other posters on another thread. I'd like to know how she would feel if the people preparing some food that she bought that didn't have to have ingredient labels decided that it'd be better for her if she didn't know the hidden fat content of the food, for all the reasons she and the other bakers are giving here for withholding other types of information.

In the case of the red food dye, I still think that the best answer is one that was given to me when I asked about the trans fats in an appealing-looking cake I saw at a bakery. The baker said, "yes, it's made with trans fats. To make it with all butter would add about $12 to the price of the cake. Would you be willing to pay that?"

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My aged computer gave up the ghost, I am at my kidlette's house.

But this is really interesting. An organic baker would totally want every jot and tittle revealed. That would be the nature of thier business. That's their pride and joy.

But and y'all could not have chosen a more perfect example because I kept little Chef-boy off of red food coloring like a hawk when he was little because of all these blablabla reasons. So I would not purchase any product because I would loose my control of every crumb the poor little kid ate. Might be why he went into food huh? But be that as it may...

But freezing does not produce any allergic reactions that I am aware of. And I would venture to give my ingredient list as it pertains to allergies etc. In my experience, what I would say is that my products are not safe for whatever allergy and that in the case eof a wedding cake, I can make a small portion of the cake to correspond to their need as best I can, however I do not guarantee things for celiac's or nut allergies where anaphylactic shockand death is emminent. Just requests for light adjustments.

Now my biggie here is that I do not see myself as the guru of all things baking. It's not my responsibility to educate the masses. I'm not opposed to 'sharing' obviously, but I do not expect to calm the fears and resolve every mistaken notion and retain my customer base.

Mark, If you were a regular I would reveal some secrets but I would have already taken your pusle too. I tea-totally would not reveal something that I knew would be a deal-breaker. Sorry, I'm really capatalist that way. I've had my own home business forever but when I actually opened up a retail place where I was responsible for every dime and dirty dish, you better believe that no one would be more disappointed than me if you found out whatever secret I was keeping from you and you quit me. But damn me if I didn't keep it hid as long as I could. Tough Love.

Hopefully we'll be replacing the computer soon...

[markk]

Do you really want to know that I have to use a quart of Red Dye #5 to make your Red Velvet cake?

Yes.

I hadn't meant to enrage you, and I'm sorry if I did. So many of the bakers here are saying that customers don't need to know so many things, and that they don't want customers micro-managing their businesses. But this is true of every business that there is. People want to micro-manage their car repair shop so they can get their car sooner, people want to micro-manage their web designers because they think they know a better way to do something, people want to micro-manage their supermarket so they get the products they want, and bascially people want to micro-manage everything. But can you imagine what life would be like if everybody decided to withhold information about everything because they don't think people want to know it? It'd be sheer and utter chaos.

If Americans knew what their food was going through on a daily basis, not just bakery, but EVERYTHING, they would be horrified.

Well, we can work to change that.

I hope that K8memphis will chime back in. I understand her concerns about fats and sugars hidden everywhere in processed foods, because she and I were taking that same argument against other posters on another thread. I'd like to know how she would feel if the people preparing some food that she bought that didn't have to have ingredient labels decided that it'd be better for her if she didn't know the hidden fat content of the food, for all the reasons she and the other bakers are giving here for withholding other types of information.

In the case of the red food dye, I still think that the best answer is one that was given to me when I asked about the trans fats in an appealing-looking cake I saw at a bakery. The baker said, "yes, it's made with trans fats. To make it with all butter would add about $12 to the price of the cake. Would you be willing to pay that?"

←

My aged computer gave up the ghost, I am at my kidlette's house.

But this is really interesting. An organic baker would totally want every jot and tittle revealed. That would be the nature of thier business. That's their pride and joy.

But and y'all could not have chosen a more perfect example because I kept little Chef-boy off of red food coloring like a hawk when he was little because of all these blablabla reasons. So I would not purchase any product because I would loose my control of every crumb the poor little kid ate. Might be why he went into food huh? But be that as it may...

But freezing does not produce any allergic reactions that I am aware of. And I would venture to give my ingredient list as it pertains to allergies etc. In my experience, what I would say is that my products are not safe for whatever allergy and that in the case eof a wedding cake, I can make a small portion of the cake to correspond to their need as best I can, however I do not guarantee things for celiac's or nut allergies where anaphylactic shockand death is emminent. Just requests for light adjustments.

Now my biggie here is that I do not see myself as the guru of all things baking. It's not my responsibility to educate the masses. I'm not opposed to 'sharing' obviously, but I do not expect to calm the fears and resolve every mistaken notion and retain my customer base.

Mark, If you were a regular I would reveal some secrets but I would have already taken your pusle too. I tea-totally would not reveal something that I knew would be a deal-breaker. Sorry, I'm really capatalist that way. I've had my own home business forever but when I actually opened up a retail place where I was responsible for every dime and dirty dish, you better believe that no one would be more disappointed than me if you found out whatever secret I was keeping from you and you quit me. But damn me if I didn't keep it hid as long as I could. Tough Love.

Hopefully we'll be replacing the computer soon...

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Okay, but here's what I'm really asking... and I'm trying to parallel the original post...

If you went into a store and asked for a batch of an item when you returned, "with no trans fats", and the shopkeeper posted on eGullet the dilemma of what do do - to sell you a regular batch and not tell you that it had trans fats in it, or to tell you that that was the only way she could make it for practical reasons, and lose your sale, so what should she do? - what would you have advised her?

[FlourPower]

If you went into a store and asked for a batch of an item when you returned, "with no trans fats", and the shopkeeper posted on eGullet the dilemma of what do do - to sell you a regular batch and not tell you that it had trans fats in it, or to tell you that that was the only way she could make it for practical reasons, and lose your sale, so what should she do? - what would you have advised her?

I'll let K8 answer that for herself, but you're twisting the issue a bit, and she acknowledged as much. So did another poster.

If a customer asks if something's vegan/organic/trans-fat free/has nuts in it, that's much different than asking if something's 'fresh' or not. If you want to know if it's 'fresh,' that's a preference. A hope. A wish. And until they know the logistics of the operation it's not really something for the customer to debate.

If they're really that concerned about freshness and quality, it's fairly easy to get the big picture of how most commercial food is made, from the Food Network's factory tour show to the Internet.

If you ask if something is vegan, free of trans fats or has nuts in it, that's a whole other question altogether, and one that should be taken seriously and answered honestly.

But experience has shown that the interrogators of the world are, by and large, fickle and cheap. They come in just twice a year, because your cake costs $x more than the sheet cake at the grocery store that they usually buy, but Aunt Nellie's coming to town and they want something special, so they expect you to treat them to a song and dance and lots of personalized attention when they grace you with their presence. They want the quality product (for once) to impress and expect that you'll recognize the 'favor' they're doing you.

Again, if you have religious/nutritional/allergic questions, I've got all the time in the world for you and respect you for asking. But if it's an esoteric debate or because you want to feel special and/or feel entitled to special treatment just because you're you (and you're not a regular customer), that's another matter entirely.

Lastly, when you're baking from scratch it takes more time to put out a quality product, period. There's less time to shoot the shit so time is at a premium. It becomes a question of 'do I spend ten minutes with this person (and the one after that and the one after that) answering questions because they didn't get enough attention as children, or do I get more pies/cupcakes/bars out?' It's a pretty easy answer.

So my question to you is this: let's assume you're a regular customer. You know me and I know the names of your pets and kids, what you did for the Super Bowl, etc. Would you accept the fact that the cookie/pastry/pie you came in for as part of your regular stop isn't out today because I just spent twenty minutes describing the minutiae of professional baking to someone who comes in twice a year? What about the day after that? And the day after that? How long before you'd quit coming because the production schedule's so erratic that you can't count on the usual items being available for sale?