Neighborhood Places

[Sneakeater]

I daresay that the distinction is becoming irrelevent.

←

Except NOT if you use the term "neighborhood place" in the "polarity" sense of somewhere worth dropping into if you're in the neighborhood, but not worth a trip for the sole purpose of dining there.

[docsconz]

I daresay that the distinction is becoming irrelevent.

←

Except NOT if you use the term "neighborhood place" in the "polarity" sense of somewhere worth dropping into if you're in the neighborhood, but not worth a trip for the sole purpose of dining there.

←

IIf one accepts this, I would then bring this discussion back full circle and state that Perry Street is a destination restaurant and not a neighborhood restaurant though people from the neighborhood may frequent it.

[Sneakeater]

I understand that.

I'm really not trying to reach any particular result here.

I'm just trying to understand how this term is used and to see if any consensus can be reached on how it should be used.

[Sneakeater]

I know I'm weird, but I just find it interesting that here's this term that oakapple would swear is a "term of art" with an established meaning, yet it seems to be understood several different ways. It's always interesting (at least to weird people like me) to unpack that. And then, once you've done that, to see what you can salvage from the wreckage.

Edited October 6, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Leonard Kim]

I think John's point about the importance of the particular neighborhood is well taken (implying that "neighborhood restaurants" differ in character depending on location.) I think Grimes was sensitive to this in his reviews. Here are some examples (which I did not include in my original list of Grimes' "neighborhood restaurants". as they were not specifically ID'd as such, despite the following.)

What they find, once inside [Calle Ocho], is a social setting, a sense of design and a style of cooking that fits the neighborhood like a well-made suit. You feel it instantly in the happy chatter at the bar and in the catlike contentment of the dating couples who have settled, drinks in hand, into the cleverly deployed recesses that make the front of the restaurant feel like a club. (The elevated lounge at the end of the bar, with its Pop Art wall of bright circles, almost demands the presence of Austin Powers.)

Above all, you feel the perfect marriage of restaurant and neighborhood. . .

Woo Lae Oak has opted for a spare, cool decor that fits the neighborhood like a glove. In fact, it looks more like a downtown Guggenheim than the downtown Guggenheim does

Aix, infectiously messy, seems about right for an Upper West Side neighborhood that does not tolerate too much formality or pretense.

In my opinion, SE's post about two discrete senses in which "neighborhood" is used and his analysis of its meanings and origins seems pretty dead on and might even close the discussion.

Edited October 6, 2006 by Leonard Kim (log)

[oakapple]

In my opinion, SE's post about two discrete senses in which "neighborhood" is used and his analysis of its meanings and origins seems pretty dead on and might even close the discussion.

←

I think it also explains what Grimes is saying.

Most restaurants "fit" their neighborhood; or at least, they're trying to. WD-50 has a Lower East Side "feel" to it. Plop Per Se into the Lower East Side, and it would be almost absurd. Even the much-denigrated Meatpacking restaurants, whether you like them or not, feel like they belong there.

"Neighborhood restaurant" — meaning "suitable for the neighborhood" — is a redundant definition. Restaurants that are unsuited to their neighborhoods usually don't last long.

It's pretty easy to do your own search on the Times site and see how various writers have used the term. I think it's just overwhelmingly obvious that the phrase generally applies to lower and occasionally mid-tier restaurants that derive most of their business from people who are already in the neighborhood for some other reason.

Restaurants can morph over time. Perhaps Blue Hill was originally intended to be just a West Village neighborhood place. It's pretty obvious that it has become a destination. It's also pretty obvious that Perry St, with all the hoopla that attended it, was meant to be a destination all along.

While I think of "destination" and "neighborhood" restaurants as opposite ends of a scale, there's a middle ground. Landmarc is an obvious example. Its no-reservations policy and comfort-food menu are clearly designed to appeal to TriBeCa mommies with strollers, but it's important enough (particularly the innovative wine program) to draw diners from elsewhere. But I don't think there are many "Landmarcs" out there.

Edited October 6, 2006 by oakapple (log)

[Daniel]

Ok.. So I am guessing Rao's isnt a neighborhood restaurant..

[Pan]

To broaden this discussion a little bit, El Bulli is actually very casual and comfortable.[...]

←

Do most people dress up to go there? If a restaurant is enough of a special occasion place for people to dress up for the purpose of going there, I don't think it's a neighborhood restaurant.

[docsconz]

To broaden this discussion a little bit, El Bulli is actually very casual and comfortable.[...]

←

Do most people dress up to go there? If a restaurant is enough of a special occasion place for people to dress up for the purpose of going there, I don't think it's a neighborhood restaurant.

←

Some people dress up. Others do not. My point on this restaurant is that it is very comfortable and quite casual for a Michelin 3 star and based on criteria mentioned above, may be considered by some to be "a neighborhood restaurant". It most certainly is not that. Therefore, in my mind the fat that a restaurant is casual and comfortable is not sufficient (or even necessary) to fit into that category.

Perhaps another way of considering what defines a destination restaurant is a feeling one gets of being lucky to be there. There is an extra electricity and anticipation that may or may not ultimately be borne out by the meal itself.

[daisy17]

Wouldn't having to plan your visit months and months in advance be enough to rule a place out as a neighborhood restaurant?

[Sneakeater]

You know (and I think it might have some relevance here), it occurs to me that the reason I don't think Perry Street does or should have a tasting menu is sort of the flip side of the reason I think the setting and style of service at Eleven Madison Park are incommensurate with the food.

[docsconz]

Wouldn't having to plan your visit months and months in advance be enough to rule a place out as a neighborhood restaurant?

←

Certainly.

[oakapple]

You know (and I think it might have some relevance here), it occurs to me that the reason I don't think Perry Street does or should have a tasting menu is sort of the flip side of the reason I think the setting and style of service at Eleven Madison Park are incommensurate with the food.

←

It used to be that tasting menus were the sole province of high-end restaurants, but nowadays you see them even in "mid-range" places.

[docsconz]

You know (and I think it might have some relevance here), it occurs to me that the reason I don't think Perry Street does or should have a tasting menu is sort of the flip side of the reason I think the setting and style of service at Eleven Madison Park are incommensurate with the food.

←

It used to be that tasting menus were the sole province of high-end restaurants, but nowadays you see them even in "mid-range" places.

←

I think that even most restaurants without tasting menus could arrange them with advance notice if the patron was so inclined. For example, I know that Chez Sophie in Saratoga, a mid-range restaurant, will prepare them on prior arrangement. Perry Street would probably do it with advance arrangement as well.

I don't think the distinction between neighborhood and destination restaurant is as clear cut as it used to be. There are many restaurants that fit into either category depending on who is making the assessment. A restaurant that I may not consider going out of my way for may be the cat's meow to someone else who would gladly travel around the world for a chance to dine there. There is greater subjectivity inherent in the distinction now than there used to be, though there remain restaurants that clearly fit either category.

[Nathan]

you know, I dropped in for brunch at Perry St. with a couple other people on Saturday.

the room was no more than a third full and pretty much all locals having casual meals. (at brunch they serve most of the dinner menu plus some inexpensive brunch items)...

I'd argue that for lunch purposes there is no way that Perry St. could be classified as anything other than a neighborhood restaurant. In fact, by most criteria, it fits the label better than say, Prune.

[docsconz]

you know, I dropped in for brunch at Perry St. with a couple other people on Saturday.

the room was no more than a third full and pretty much all locals having casual meals.  (at brunch they serve most of the dinner menu plus some inexpensive brunch items)...

I'd argue that for lunch purposes there is no way that Perry St. could be classified as anything other than a neighborhood restaurant.  In fact, by most criteria, it fits the label better than say, Prune.

←

Saturday would not be a day to judge lunch at anyplace (or nearly so) in NYC for this purpose.

[Nathan]

eh....a lot of places that serve brunch are incredibly packed on Saturday afternoon...and with plenty of non-locals:

Prune, Pastis, Balthazar, Inoteca etc...

here's a question: is Wallse a neighborhood restaurant by your lights?

I'd note that it certainly looks like one.

[oakapple]

here's a question: is Wallse a neighborhood restaurant by your lights?

←

Not by mine. Celebrity chef? Michelin star? On the neighborhood–destination continuum, it is more of a destination.

[Sneakeater]

To me, the Gutenbrunner restaurant that raises this issue is Blaue Gans. It looks like a neighborhood restaurant, and it's run like a neighborhood restaurant, but I for one regularly travel to go there.

Edited October 9, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Nathan]

the reason that I brought up Wallse is twofold:

it looks extremely "homey."

it has a very residential and "homey" location.

you know, based on some of the definitions I am seeing here, I question whether any restaurant can be considered a "neighborhood place" unless it is a diner or something close to it (i.e. Gitane).

Is Ino a neighborhood place? August? Barbuto?

or is there a sort of WV conundrum here...where it seems like every WV restaurant is styled to be cozy and familiar...and have a surfeit of local diners but yet are expensive and ambitious enough (in most cases) to draw diners from across the city.

[Pan]

eh....a lot of places that serve brunch are incredibly packed on Saturday afternoon...and with plenty of non-locals:

Prune, Pastis, Balthazar, Inoteca etc...

←

Yeah, but that's probably also true of Teresa's for Saturday brunch. If I'm right, I still don't think that makes Teresa's something other than a neighborhood restaurant with some patronage by people from "out of area."

[docsconz]

the reason that I brought up Wallse is twofold:

it looks extremely "homey."

it has a very residential and "homey" location.

you know, based on some of the definitions I am seeing here, I question whether any restaurant can be considered a "neighborhood place" unless it is a diner or something close to it (i.e. Gitane).

Is Ino a neighborhood place?  August?  Barbuto?

or is there a sort of WV conundrum here...where it seems like every WV restaurant is styled to be cozy and familiar...and have a surfeit of local diners but yet are expensive and ambitious enough (in most cases) to draw diners from across the city.

←

I think that is a function of the West Village itself as a particularly opulent restaurant would seem out of place and perhaps tacky.

[Nathan]

so, then, would it be fair to say that WV restaurants are almost universally designed to "look like" neighborhood restaurants?

actually, I think that is literally the case.

and, like I said, I see "neighborhood restaurant" as a form descriptor

[Sneakeater]

Only if you use it that way. If, on the other hand, you use "neighborhood restaurant" simply to mean a place that's worth dropping in to if you're in the area, but isn't worth traveling to, a lot of those problems disappear.

[oakapple]

the reason that I brought up Wallse is twofold:

it looks extremely "homey."

it has a very residential and "homey" location.

It's to be expected that restaurants will fit into their surroundings. Also, many of the buildings in that area are landmarked, and there are probably limits on what you can do with them. None of us, I trust, would call Babbo a "neighborhood restaurant," but it has a Village-y feel to it.

you know, based on some of the definitions I am seeing here, I question whether any restaurant can be considered a "neighborhood place" unless it is a diner or something close to it (i.e. Gitane).

Most NYC neighborhoods are chock-full of restaurants more formal than a diner, that cater mainly to the residents or business of that neighborhood. Heck, the Upper East Side has practically one of these on every block.