Adventures with sodium alginate

[BryanZ]

All the seasoning in the world won't solve the crux of adding too much alginate or not washing off enough the CaCl. I'm going to go out on a limb and say most home cooks don't have a 0.1 gram scale. Additionally, we're not all using the same product and, as Chef T noted, this can have significant effects on the end result.

[s_sevilla]

although most cooks don't have a 0.1 gram scale, they aren't as expensive to come by as you would think.

Most science supply stores carry these cool little "pocket" balances that will measure anywhere from 0.1 to 0.001 gram intervals, cost is generally 15-35$ depending on the material it's made of, capacity, and accuracy. Cheapest sub-gram digital scales run in the 50$ range, but you're more likely to find one for about 100 or more.

[Tonyy13]

djsexyb,

Sorry, now I feel like an idiot, not a feeling I am unfamiliar with however.

I actually picked up my scale at a flea market for $35 and it weighs in tenths of a gram. I am pretty sure that their target customer isn't measuring tenth grams of alginate!

ChefT, I am particularly interested in the parmigiano spaghetti strand, but would also love to hear more about the other method. I believe that there was mention of it upthread.

[djsexyb]

Bryan,

point well taken. yes, most home cooks probably dont have that type of scale lying around, though there are a few (perhaps many) on egullet and in this forum that experiment for the sake of actually serving this to paying customers (i am certainly in this group, we're doing a deconstructed Mocha Cappichino which includes espresso caviar in the near future) and one of the main differences/pitfalls i see with home cooks is that they dont season enough in general, and with sphereification specifically, it seems that the actual taste is an afterthought to many. i just wanted to state that for the sake of anyone who hasnt thought about it yet. for those that are past that, im gald to here it too.

Tonyy,

no prob, i am left wondering if this guy brian from that tv show was any good as a chef. i hope so if i was mistaken for him. lol. and i see your email is disney chef, how long have you been there, which restaurant do you work in, i have a friend or two that cook for disney too.

100 posts, woo hoo !!!

Edited August 11, 2006 by djsexyb (log)

[Tonyy13]

Tonyy,

no prob, i am left wondering if this guy brian from that tv show was any good as a chef. i hope so if i was mistaken for him. lol. and i see your email is disney chef, how long have you been there, which restaurant do you work in, i have a friend or two that cook for disney too.

100 posts, woo hoo !!!

←

Um, no, he wasn't that good. Another example of a person who thinks they are awesome, and the fact that they cooked for Jay-Z once makes them the best ever. Um, no. I was just curious, that's all. That is why I wanted to ask, as you seem much more skilled than anything he could have done, but I wanted to check. I actually don't cook at Disney anymore, I did a quick internship a while back (2000), but I just got too lazy to change my email address for the billionth time. While I was there, I worked at The Coral Reef at Epcot, and also did a stretch for the Food and Wine Festival. Now, I am teaching at a culinary school here in Orlando.

I am interested to hear about this liquid center birthday cake, more info?

[joesan]

Tony - El Bulli do a consomme tagliatelle carbonara, I posted the method for making the noodles earlier on in this thread. You could make the noodles with parmesan "water" rather than consomme. You make the parmesan water by taking equal weights of parmesan and water. Cut the parmesan up and dissolve it in the boiling water. Let cool and then push through a sieve. You can then add Agar to this water according to the consomme noodle method I posted above.

Is that the kind of thing you are after?

[djsexyb]

I am interested to hear about this liquid center birthday cake, more info?

i wish i still had a pictue of this. i had it at Moto a WHILE back, couple years prolly. basically it is a white birthday cake style disk (looks more like a small hockey puck than a ravioli) with sprinkles on top. it is liquid center of course and made using this method as i talk to chef cantu every so often and he informs me of such.

the only aspect i am still testing is that the one served at Moto had a diffinative shape

____

l____l

looks like that, and not rounded orbs like el bulli raviolli.

ok, i guess its time to let the cat out of the bag, the secret to getting great ravioli (for me anyway) is freezing the liquid into shape prior to the CaCl2 bath. i do my ravioli this way and it works hands down every single time and they are all uniform in shape and size. the only "problem" with this is that they still look like raviolli and not a deffinate shape as shown above. so i am thinking i need to make a bigger mold, freeze it, and leave it in the bath (perhaps a "stronger" bath too) longer. the LCBDCAKE at moto had a very strong outer layer, i think i could have dropped it to the floor from 5 feet and it would have been fine....

so thats the outlook for that experiment...

Edited August 11, 2006 by djsexyb (log)

[BryanZ]

What are you using for your freezing mold? People have alluded to using this technique before, but I'm just wondering what type of mold you use to freeze large batches.

[skidude72]

Bryanz,

two ideas for the ice molds, first fill ballons till the size you want and freeze, or find shaped ice trays and fill. just my $.02

[skidude72]

DJ,

one question... how long do you leave the frozen mixture in the CaCl bath??

[djsexyb]

ok as for molds, i prefer to freeze individual servings. i use these plastic shot glasses (tuperware i think) that have air tight lids. that way when you get an order for it, pull it out and drop it ito the CaCl2 bath. i leave the sphere in the bath for approximately 3-3 1/2 minutes and it forms a nice thin layer. the i strain it out and place it into a fresh water bath to rinse, which is slightly warm, to thaw it fully.

ive noticed that the shape of the mold doesnt mater becuase the liquid inside the orb disperses evenly and forms a sphere. i will have to experiment to find a mold and CaCl2 bath that will facilitate the shape i want for the liquid center b-day cake....

[skidude72]

AS dumb as this question makes me feel... how do you know when the "orb" has thawed completly, and do you let it melt slightly before you drop it into the bath. also im almost at the point were i need more materials so has anypone tested the calcium lactate?

Thanks

[djsexyb]

AS dumb as this question makes me feel... how do you know when the "orb" has thawed completly, and do you let it melt slightly before you drop it into the bath. also im almost at the point were i need more materials so has anypone tested the calcium lactate?

Thanks

←

i go directly from the freezer into the Calcium bath. i know from experimenting that to get a very nice, thin, but very strudy orb, it needs to be in there for 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 minutes. at that time i poke it with my finger to see if there is any frozen liquid in the center, then place it in a warm, fresh water bath for another minute or so and go to plate.

i am interested in the calcium lactate also, anyone used this the the purpose of sphereification? chef cantu from Moto told me once to try to find Calcium Lactate for this purpse and that it does work, though you need to use much more of it. i have not tried it yet though.

[wattacetti]

This thread has been highly educational and I'll soon have my own powders to start playing around with.

I do have some questions already in regards to the agar tagliatelle and the alginate ravioli but from a somewhat more mundane point:

1. Service temperature.

Bryan has already posted about serving his tea raviolo warm and Texturas suggests that the orbs are stable and not thermolabile. Are you serving these things warm, cold, hot… I am interested in creating something which mimics the look of an egg yolk and am considering a slightly warm presentation since the people I'm thinking of serving these to have an aversion to "raw" (as in hasn't been cooked for at least 20 minutes) yolks.

I am pretty clear about the agar since I use to run high current through this stuff when doing DNA gels in grad school.

2. Prep time.

How much lead time does one have in these preparations? I have often cooked in other people's kitchens and prefer to prep as much as possible before arrival because I'm generally not in the mood to lug equipment or have certain surprises. How much in advance can one make the ravioli without adversely affecting flavor or texture of the shell?

3. Transport.

Related to prep time. Is it feasible to pre-make the agar noodles and alginate spheres in my own kitchen and transport them to site of final service? How well would they survive the transport?

[BryanZ]

Agar noodles you could prob transport. The spheres, however, will continue to gel even after you've rinsed them. If you're transporting more than a few minutes you'll have a gooey mess that's not too appetizing.

I would suggest mixing the two components, the alginated mixture and the CaCl bath, and storing them in plastic sealable containers for transport. Then fabricate the spheres on-site. People will be amazed and dazzled and all that fun stuff.

[djsexyb]

i agree with bryan, set it all up and make em there. as for service temp, you can heat the spheres gently in warm liquids, but be sure not to go too far/too hot as they will explode on ya.

i should also note that if you are doing an egg yolk ravioli (which is a coool idea) that is has cacium in it and thus should be done with inverse sphereification.

Edited August 15, 2006 by djsexyb (log)

[BryanZ]

I think he just wants to do something that looks like an egg yolk. Wylie has already done that, so watacetti can look at pictures of his "egg" dish for inspiration.

[wattacetti]

Once I get a chance to start playing, I'm going to have to see how frozen individual servings will work. I can see that as the best way (for me anyway) to transport to the site. I don't think I'm that inclined to lug two slurries.

The egg yolk idea is to create something which looks like a yolk. I know several people who are put off by the sight of sunny-side-up eggs and ondo tamago so evil side says it might be interesting to play with their perceptions (I am ready to serve them in real egg shells and use red tobiko to make them look fertilized).

The straight egg yolk ravioli would be interesting too, but let's see how well I can do spherification.

Time to look up photos of Mr. Dufresne's creation.

[Shalmanese]

Hrmm... what about dropping liquids into LN2 to freeze them before spherification? Would that help with service?

[Tonyy13]

Cantu drops them in liquid nitrogen AFTER spherification to get the desired effect and makes them perfectly round.

What kind of a license do you need to get Liquid Nitrogen btw, anyone know?

I have calcium lactate, but it is going to be about another week before i get to play. I am workign doubles this week, triples next week for a few days too, so I am going to need some recovery time! Three 5 hour classes back to back to back. Next, they are going to tell me I have to work real restaurant hours!

[BryanZ]

I've tried unsucessfully to get liquid nitrogen. No one at school was too willing to give me some, but I'll try again when I go back in a few days. Supposedly you can get it from welding shops or something, but I'm not sure how that would go over.

[RyuShihan]

Hey brian I know for fact you can get it from a welding supply place, I asked one next to my house...Apparently you jsut need a safe canister to put it into. The canisters can get exspensive and the smaller ones have a slow leak..So you can only play around for a little while.

I have been following this thread since the begining it has been a fun one to read, latter this weak i start my first batch of stuff to order. Then hopefully I can add more input.

[djsexyb]

Once I get a chance to start playing, I'm going to have to see how frozen individual servings will work. I can see that as the best way (for me anyway) to transport to the site. I don't think I'm that inclined to lug two slurries.

The egg yolk idea is to create something which looks like a yolk. I know several people who are put off by the sight of sunny-side-up eggs and ondo tamago so evil side says it might be interesting to play with their perceptions (I am ready to serve them in real egg shells and use red tobiko to make them look fertilized).

The straight egg yolk ravioli would be interesting too, but let's see how well I can do spherification.

Time to look up photos of Mr. Dufresne's creation.

←

just want to make sure you know how im doing it. i freeze the solution that has the alginate in it, not the finished sphere.

tony,

first

let us know about the lactate and how that goes.

second

i dont think that is what cantu does, i talk with him occasionally and he has informed me to freeze the liquid and alginate solution (hense my sourses for the liquid center bday cake idea), or perhaps he has been doing it different lately. how do you know? i am not sure on what the benefits would be with freezing the finished orbs.

Edited August 16, 2006 by djsexyb (log)

[djsexyb]

Hrmm... what about dropping liquids into LN2 to freeze them before spherification? Would that help with service?

←

unless the surface tension and viscosity of liquid nitrogen matches that of the product you're putting into it, you would not be able to make perfect frozen spheres, and if you cant do that, then i dont see a point.

secondly, from experience, when i freeze portions, even though my mold isnt round or oval in any way, i get perfect ravioli because the outer layer is gelled first and then the liquid inside disperses against the sides of the gell evenly so you get a perfect sphere, reguardless of if your frozen shape was spherical.

hope that makes sense...

Edited August 16, 2006 by djsexyb (log)

[Shalmanese]

Hrmm... what about dropping liquids into LN2 to freeze them before spherification? Would that help with service?

←

unless the surface tension and viscosity of liquid nitrogen matches that of the product you're putting into it, you would not be able to make perfect frozen spheres, and if you cant do that, then i dont see a point.

secondly, from experience, when i freeze portions, even though my mold isnt round or oval in any way, i get perfect ravioli because the outer layer is gelled first and then the liquid inside disperses against the sides of the gell evenly so you get a perfect sphere, reguardless of if your frozen shape was spherical.

hope that makes sense...

←

Doesn't your second point conflict with your first? The whole point of freezing them is that they dont need to be perfectly round. Then again, caviar might work differently to ravioli in this respect.

I was thinking more in terms of freezing a batch pre-service and then just being able to drop them all into the alginate solution at once which would help speed up service.