Q&A: Homebrewing

[cdh]

I am a little behind on the brewing BTW. I need to buy a big enough pot sometime this week. the one I had was smaller than I thought.

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Walmart is your friend. They stock the beautiful Brazilian Tramontina stainless pots... cheap. I think I spent maybe $35 on my 16 Quart model pictured in the lesson.

Btw, good news that the yeasty beasties are not rife in your kitchen. You can probably siphon and bottle safely in there if a week of ideal growth medium exposed to the air didn't pick up anything other than a little mold.

Edited April 18, 2006 by cdh (log)

[UNM1136]

I am a homebrewer, and I have made more mistakes than I care to think about. I appreciate Chris's approach to the equipment issue, but I feel the need to speak up.

If you are homebrewing because of this forum, then Chris's advice is spot on.

If you are homebrewing because you always wanted to, you like beer, and you think you will starting it as a hobby, then look long and hard at your choices. Over the last 15 years I have replaced 4 brew pots, because I went Aluminum to porcelined Iron, and had to keep replacing them. With what I spent of TWO of them, I could have bought my next brewing gadget, a Stainless steel Turkey fryer. Multi tasking is good, particulary when we are buying large, heavy, expensive pots to boil our wort in. Most Mashers (all grain brewers) don't use Al, for several reasons. A good wort pot can also make stock. The other reason I replaced so many was when I went from extract to all grain, after about 6 batches, and need a much larger pot.

Next Brewing is fun, and easy, and there are more gadgets than you can shake a stick at. Weigh your needs, wants and thoughts of the future heavily before taking the plunge.

I also need to agree with everyone that has championed Wyeast. The sheer volume of the pitch helps the fermentation take off more quickly with less chance of contamination, so new brewers can have a greater chance of success. I started out with dry yeast, and for 5-10 the money (depending on type, size and vender of wyeast) I have found liquid yeast cultures to be 100 times better.

pat

[cdh]

Absolutely Pat, you're right. If somebody here is absolutely certain that brewing is for them and is something worth dropping a couple hundred bucks on, then buying a rinky dink starter kit is a bad economic decision. I've designed this course for people who haven't come to that decision, but do read eGullet... hence folks likely to have a well stocked kitchen and a penchant for cooking. My thought was that the average eG reader would be able to brew a 2 gallon batch with stuff mostly already in the house. Who here doesn't make their own stock every once in a while?

Looking at Elie's purchases, above, I'd guess he'd spent in the neighborhood of $30-35 for malt extract, bags, hops, yeast, tubing and specialized bits and pieces, and he chose the expensive reusable nylon hop bag. A case of beer could easily cost more. In keeping with the philosophy of the course, that makes the hobby a bit more approachable than asking somebody to put down $75 for a beginning brewer's kit, and another $100+ for a 7 gallon kettle and however much extra for a outdoor propane burner to get a 7 gallon kettle boiling.

So, as Pat advises, if you're here because you know brewing is for you and you have no pots in your kitchen, then just a 12 qt pot is way too limiting. There is a world of gadgets out there if you're really serious... the hot item lately has been stainless steel conical fermentors with a dump valve at the bottom so that you can boil, ferment, age and bottle/keg, all the while never moving the beer from the vessel the wort drained off of your grain into until it finds its final home. And you don't even have to sanitize it because you boiled right inside it.

But, if you just want to get a taste of brewing, this course if for you. If you want advice on all of the fine toys, we can certainly talk about it... but that is not the thrust of this course.

Edited April 19, 2006 by cdh (log)

[Matty]

Hi Chris,

Another student getting ready here.

I've ordered a fermenting bin as our big stainless steel pan is in regular use. I'm in the UK so, doing the conversion, 9 quarts is roughly 8.5 litres. My pan is about 8 so I wonder if its possible to do the boil with 6 and make up to two gallons by adding cooled boiled water when it goes in the bin prior to pitching the yeast?

I have general question also. Are brewing recipes scalable in a regular way(i'm thinking of how bakers percentages work), or do proportions not work in a fixed way in brewing ? I'd quite like to experiment frequently, but can't imagine being able to drink enough to keep the turnover up to speed - so would quite like the ability to brew 1 gallon batches if possible.

Many thanks for running the course - just what i've been looking for.

Kind Regards,

Matt Bourne

[cdh]

Hi Chris,

Another student getting ready here.

I've ordered a fermenting bin as our big stainless steel pan is in regular use. I'm in the UK so, doing the conversion, 9 quarts is roughly 8.5 litres. My pan is about 8 so I wonder if its possible to do the boil with 6 and make up to two gallons by adding cooled boiled water when it goes in the bin prior to pitching the yeast?

Boiling 6 quarts in an 8 quart pot is pushing it a little bit. You're likely to experience a bit of boil-over when the foam forms as you add the extract. As to the more general question of whether a concentrated boil will work, yes, it will. I generally brew batches of about 5 gallons, and boil about half of it. Boiling concentrated wort will result in a slightly darker beer, as the heat can cause some caramelization, and the concentration means that more sugar will be in the hot spots where it occurs, hence more darkening. So if you are looking for bright yellow beer, doing a full boil is important.

I have general question also. Are brewing recipes scalable in a regular way(i'm thinking of how bakers percentages work), or do proportions not work in a fixed way in brewing ? I'd quite like to experiment frequently, but can't imagine being able to drink enough to keep the turnover up to speed  - so would quite like the ability to brew 1 gallon batches if possible.

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The answer to that is mostly yes. The grain and extract will contribute proportionally. The hops are a bit more complicated. Hop utilization decreases as the density of your wort increases. So, if you're doing a concentrated boil, you need more hops to achieve the same IBUs as you would if you were doing a full boil. If you're doing a one gallon full boil, then halving the recipe would work fine. If you're doing a one gallon concentrated boil and planning on diluting out to two gallons, then you need to use more hops. There are hop utilization calculators online that will help you figure out how much you need to add, but it doesn't sound like you need one. If you do, let me know.

[Matty]

Thanks for that info Chris.

Best,

Matt

[cdh]

I just noticed that Matt and Pat and Rombot are all first time eG posters.

Welcome! Explore the community here, jump into other discussions, start threads of your own, make yourselves at home.

Looking forward to seeing more from all of you. Any other new folks are encouraged to introduce yourselves and say hi.

Edited April 19, 2006 by cdh (log)

[Ajl92]

Having been inspired by this course to get into home brewing I have been looking/shopping around online for the past few days for ingredients and toys (I can't help but buy toys whenever I find a new hobby:-)

The one question I had about the beginners' batch you are using in the course of 2 gallons. Your recipe calls for 3lbs of DME. When I see the notes for DME in the online stores it says that that amount is enough for a 5 gallon batch (in fact one site says to use 1-3lbs for a 5 gallon batch). Will the 2 gallon batch you are demo'ing in the course be heavy or stronger?

BTW I am really enjoying reading the classes, thanks for taking the time to make it happen. I have learned a lot already and was inspired to read some other brewing forums and it seems very accessible, but also something that I can buy a lot of toys if I want. I already roast my own espresso and enjoy things I can tweak and experiment with.

[Matty]

Thanks Chris.

I joined specifically to take part in this course, but I have been making sourdough for a few years so have started to lurk around the bread threads.

I was attracted by your approach on this course. I like the idea of making something delicious with only a few simple ingredients and equipment. Having travelled a bit through the sourdough bread jungle I realise that this ideal of simple goodness takes practise though.

Thanks for putting in the time to run this class and Q&A. I hope there are many other students out there lurking.

Matt

Edited April 19, 2006 by Matty (log)

[Ajl92]

Having been inspired by this course to get into home brewing I have been looking/shopping around online for the past few days for ingredients and toys (I can't help but buy toys whenever I find a new hobby:-)

The one question I had about the beginners' batch you are using in the course of 2 gallons.  Your recipe calls for 3lbs of DME.  When I see the notes for DME in the online stores it says that that amount is enough for a 5 gallon batch (in fact one site says to use 1-3lbs for a 5 gallon batch).  Will the 2 gallon batch you are demo'ing in the course be heavy or stronger?

BTW I am really enjoying reading the classes, thanks for taking the time to make it happen.  I have learned a lot already and was inspired to read some other brewing forums and it seems very accessible, but also something that I can buy a lot of toys if I want.  I already roast my own espresso and enjoy things I can tweak and experiment with.

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Well, I guess I can almost answer my own question here. As I am oft apt to post a question just before reading further to find the answer, I was reading John Palmer's "How to Brew" online and read a few recipes where the level of DME is easily within this range. I am surprised that the online store for my local brewshop said to only use 1-3lbs for a 5 gallon batch.

Thanks again for the course and inspiration Chris.

[FoodMan]

Boiling 6 quarts in an 8 quart pot is pushing it a little bit. You're likely to experience a bit of boil-over when the foam forms as you add the extract. As to the more general question of whether a concentrated boil will work, yes, it will. I generally brew batches of about 5 gallons, and boil about half of it. Boiling concentrated wort will result in a slightly darker beer, as the heat can cause some caramelization, and the concentration means that more sugar will be in the hot spots where it occurs, hence more darkening. So if you are looking for bright yellow beer, doing a full boil is important.

Welcome all our new members. We hope to see more of you on the Forums.

Thanks Matty for this idea (why didn't I think of that?)! I will probably do that as well rather than buying a new stockpot right off the bat. Besides, I like dark beer .

Chris, what is the best way to transfer the boiled cooled (cooled to a little over the ideal temp of course) liquid to the fermenting jar/container. I was thinking about using a sterilized measuring cup for most of the volume and then to just pour the rest of it once the pot is easy to pick up and manage. Is that good?

[cdh]

If you're not planning on fermenting in your boiling pot, then have no compunctions about just pouring the boiled wort into your sanitized fermentation vessel... see below for the fuller plans for your situation. I realized I should note that you want to pour gently to avoid splashing, as oxidation is a long term problem for beer flavor stability, and splashy pouring leads to sticky floors and clothes and such. The latter is more likely to present a problem in a batch this small, but you should be aware of the former.

Elie, for your situation, we'll engage in a little beer engineering for you.

You want to boil your hops in wort at 1.068, as that is the density the recipe is calculated for. To achieve that with your pot, add half the extract at the beginning of the one gallon boil with the first hop bag. Then a little after the 10 minute mark, when you add the second hop bag, add the other half of the extract. That way your bittering hops boiled in wort of the right density so their effectiveness will be preserved... and you'll get the right concentration when you add the second gallon of water to the concentrated wort before you start cooling it. You'll get a head start on the cooling if you put the additional gallon into your fermentation vessel, and then just dump the concentrated wort in on top... and then put the fermentation vessel into the ice water in the sink to cool.

This does run the risk of making a slightly sweeter beer than the unconcentrated method, since the caramelization affects flavor as well as color, and the flavor hops will not contribute much bitterness at all since they're boiling in a much denser wort. You might consider upping the bittering hops to .5 oz and splitting the flavor and aroma into .25 oz. Or you could follow the recipe and tell us what happened.

Edited April 21, 2006 by cdh (log)

[cdh]

Having been inspired by this course to get into home brewing I have been looking/shopping around online for the past few days for ingredients and toys (I can't help but buy toys whenever I find a new hobby:-)

Do tell.. what goodies have you picked up?

The one question I had about the beginners' batch you are using in the course of 2 gallons.  Your recipe calls for 3lbs of DME.  When I see the notes for DME in the online stores it says that that amount is enough for a 5 gallon batch (in fact one site says to use 1-3lbs for a 5 gallon batch).  Will the 2 gallon batch you are demo'ing in the course be heavy or stronger?

I see that you later discovered that 3 lbs for 2 gallons is not crazy brewing. This first recipe was designed for a little cognitive dissonance. It is designed to look light yellow like common beers, but was designed to have more flavor and more power than common beers. It is designed to look familiar but taste radically different... and hopefully better.

BTW I am really enjoying reading the classes, thanks for taking the time to make it happen.  I have learned a lot already and was inspired to read some other brewing forums and it seems very accessible, but also something that I can buy a lot of toys if I want.  I already roast my own espresso and enjoy things I can tweak and experiment with.

←

I've played with coffee roasting too... but the air roasters just make too bright a coffee for my tastes. I've been meaning to try pan roasting the beans to see if a solid bed makes better homeroast than a fluid bed. Pop over to the homeroasting threads in the coffee forum to tell us about your successes.

[FoodMan]

If you're not planning on fermenting in your boiling pot, then have no compunctions about just pouring the boiled wort into your sanitized fermentation vessel... see below for the fuller plans for your situation.

Elie, for your situation, we'll engage in a little beer engineering for you. 

You want to boil your hops in wort at 1.068, as that is the density the recipe is calculated for. To achieve that with your pot, add half the extract at the beginning of the one gallon boil with the first hop bag.  Then a little after the 10 minute mark, when you add the second hop bag, add the other half of the extract.  That way your bittering hops boiled in wort of the right density so their effectiveness will be preserved... and you'll get the right concentration when you add the second gallon of water to the concentrated wort before you start cooling it.  You'll get a head start on the cooling if you put the additional gallon into your fermentation vessel, and then just dump the concentrated wort in on top... and then put the fermentation vessel into the ice water in the sink to cool.

This does run the risk of making a slightly sweeter beer than the unconcentrated method, since the caramelization affects flavor as well as color, and the flavor hops will not contribute much bitterness at all since they're boiling in a much denser wort.  You might consider upping the bittering hops to .5 oz and splitting the flavor and aroma into .25 oz.  Or you could follow the recipe and tell us what happened.

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Chris, Do you mean the 50 minute mark is when I add the rest of the Malt extract? That ia when the second hop bag is added, not at 10 minutes.

The water is almost boiling so hopefully u are viewing this....

[cdh]

Yes, I mean 10 minutes remaining in the countdown. After 50 minutes of boiling.

[FoodMan]

Yes, I mean 10 minutes remaining in the countdown.  After 50 minutes of boiling.

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Thanks for the very speedy reply!

[cdh]

So, how did it go? Smoothly, I hope?

[FoodMan]

So, how did it go?  Smoothly, I hope?

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more or less. I did have a minor overflow in the beginning of the boil, but nothing major maybe about 1/2 a cup that I replaced promptly. It did take much longer to cool down than I expected even in an ice water bath. My fermenting vessel is a large glass jar that I use to make flavored liqours, and is resting in a dark closet with a clean cheese cloth covering the mouth with a rubberband. So it is easy for me to see how everything looks. I think it is working just fine, the wort smells very good and I noticed this morning that there is already a thin layer of foam forming on the surface. That is a good sign, right?

I cannot wait to see how it comes out, fingers crossed....

[cdh]

That is sounding very good indeed. The slow cooling may have something to do with the glass... it transfers heat much less well than metal. Further considering such things, I'm just going to reiterate my personal dislike of glass in the brewing process. Glass is fickle and dangerous stuff that really doesn't like rapid temperature changes.

Glass should be avoided if you can, especially in the context of hot liquids. If you're going to age beer for months, then a glass secondary fermentor might be a reasonable piece of equipment to use to transfer the room temperature beer from the primary into... but as a primary, I'm afraid of glass. It is just too likely to decide it didn't like something you did and crack. Then your beer drains away and you might cut yourself.

As to the visual you're getting, yup, a foam on top is exactly what you want to see.

Edited April 21, 2006 by cdh (log)

[cdh]

I want to make a quick calendar announcement... a last minute business event is taking me away to Austin, Texas for Monday through Wednesday of next week, so those brewing then will be on your own until Thursday. Questions will get answered eventually, but not necessarily speedily.

[Matty]

I've just finished.

I had an overflow as well - I neglected to observe your word 'sprinkle' and rather 'tipped' the malt in - causing quite a big one. I estimated about 300ml which I replaced with fresh boiled water.

Another minor hiccup as well - I dabbed my balloon whisk in just as I realised it wasn't sanitised. It was clean and stainless steel though, so I'm crossing my fingers I haven't goofed there.

I tipped everything into a fermenting bin for the cool, and it cooled very quickly - it had gone down to nearly 60 by the time I could get the yeast in. I'm guessing that isn't too much of a problem though.

I have loosely covered with the lid the bin came with - OK?

It was good fun and time will tell. Looking forward to doing another boil - I'll know what to do different next time.

Cheers,

Matt

[cdh]

I've just finished.

I had an overflow as well - I neglected to observe your word 'sprinkle' and rather 'tipped' the malt in - causing quite a big one. I estimated about 300ml which I replaced with fresh boiled water.

Not too awful, so long as you cleaned it up before it caramelized and hardened onto your stovetop.

Another minor hiccup as well - I dabbed my balloon whisk in just as I realised it wasn't sanitised. It was clean and stainless steel though, so I'm crossing my fingers I haven't goofed there.

Fingers crossed. If any funky flavors happen, you know where they came from.

I tipped everything into a fermenting bin for the cool, and it cooled very quickly - it had gone down to nearly 60 by the time I could get the yeast in. I'm guessing that isn't too much of a problem though.

I have loosely covered with the lid the bin came with - OK?

60 would be just fine... low temperatures will slow the yeast down a little, but high temperatures will kill them. Always better to err on the cooler side.

A lid loosely on top should be alright... it will let the CO2 out and keep airborne stuff from contaminating your beer.

It was good fun and time will tell. Looking forward to doing another boil - I'll know what to do different next time.

Cheers,

Matt

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Glad that you enjoyed it. Now the hard part is ahead, waiting for the yeast to do their job.

Edited April 22, 2006 by cdh (log)

[ScoopKW]

I read the guide -- fairly solid information.

Some additions from a commercial brewer:

1) Yeast.

Yeast is the most important ingredient in beer. Brewers make wort (unfermented barley sugar water with hops). Yeast makes beer. If you're serious about beer, try this experiment -- make a five gallon batch, and ferment in five one-gallon containers. Use five different yeasts. You'll end up with five markedly different beers.

Dry yeast, particularly the Safale brand mentioned in the guide, is not that good. All yeast powders contain some bacteria and wild yeasts. So long as you get liquid yeast from a high volume brewing supply store, liquids are always better than dry. Besides, you can match the single-strain yeast to your beer style. This will make a huge difference in beer quality.

EDIT: Temperature control cannot be stressed highly enough. I ferment most of my beers "cold" -- 60f for an ale, 45f for lagers. My only exception is Belgian trappist ales and dubbels, which I ferment at 70f. Low-temp fermentation means a cleaner taste. Higher fermentation temps lead to higher ester production, which leads to more flavor notes. If you want a clean, dry beer, ferment as cold as the yeast will stand. (Wyeast 1056 is ideal for clean, crisp ales. Ferment it at 55f.)

2) Water

Beer is (usually) more than 90% water. If you're using city water, your quality may suffer -- particularly if chloromines are added or if the water is particularly soft. (If it's soft, make stouts.)

Volumes have been written about adjusting water -- both PH and mineral hardness. Your local brewing supply shop may have tips on how to manage your city's water. If you use well water, you may want to have the water analyzed. It'll cost about $50, but it's well worth the cost if you plan to make more than 50 gallons per year.

3) Malt Extract.

I never, ever, ever, have brewed with extract. I started out as a home brewer with barley. It's more expensive and time consuming this way, but that rich, creamy head and full body makes it all worth the effort.

Cracking and mashing barley takes time, effort and equipment. If there is any interest, I'll post how to make a mash tun using a picnic cooler and about $10 worth of copper pipe. You'll also need a grain mill, which will run $100 or so.

4) Why bottle when kegging is less expensive and more repeatable?

Just wait 'til you overprime a batch and end up with glass grenades blowing up in your basement -- you'll end up kegging eventually, so you may as well START with kegs.

Here's a place to start: http://morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=18190

You can also filter the yeast out of your beer using 2 kegs and a filter: http://morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=16769

If anyone has specific questions, PM me, and I'll either PM back or drop an answer here.

Yours,

ScoopKW

www.kellyskeywest.com

Key West, Florida

Edited April 23, 2006 by ScoopKW (log)

[cdh]

Scoop-

Thanks for a pro's eye view. Mayhaw Man (aka Brooks), who used to brew for Abita, agreed with you up the thread about the liquid yeast. I am still not sold on the conventional wisdom that all liquid yeast is superior to all dry yeast. There are many reports of very happy brewers using Fermentis' products, Safale amongst them. US-56 is reported again and again to be just as good as Wyeast 1056 or its White Labs counterparts. What specific information can you use to convince me that you're right?

I've got my own experience brewing my last 5 batches with T-58, S-33, Nottingham and Windsor, and they all turned out just fine. None of them infected, none of them off flavored. The T-58 did something weird when I split half the batch into a keg and left the other half on the lees for another couple of weeks, but that isn't a sign that the yeast was bad, since the kegged beer was great. I know that S-04 is the Whitbread yeast, and I've never, ever, enjoyed Whitbread beers, so I'm not the person to talk to about the relative merits of that yeast.

The selling point for liquid yeast, in my opinion, is the variety available. There are a few dry yeasts, and a load of liquid ones. I am a regular user of 3944 for my witbiers, and I always have something fermented with 1214 around. But dry yeasts are just easier to handle than the liquid ones, you don't have to worry about a starter, you don't have to fiddle with smack packs, you just tear and pour.

Edited April 23, 2006 by cdh (log)

[ScoopKW]

Scoop-

What specific information can you use to convince me that you're right?

But dry yeasts are just easier to handle than the liquid ones, you don't have to worry about a starter, you don't have to fiddle with smack packs, you just tear and pour.

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Sure, dry yeast is easy. But the new "XL" smack packs are perfect for a 5-gallon batch, and only require that you pop that bubble when starting the mash -- all will be ready by pitching time. In a pinch, I have pitched 2 XL packs in a 200-gallon batch without problems. It's all about wort oxygenation.

As far as dry yeast quality, I can only speak for the 200-gallon batches that I make. The brewer I replaced used Safale S-04 and his beer lasted *maybe* a week. Then it started to go south quickly -- occasionally, wild yeast reared its ugly head, and Kelly's ended up with a batch that tasted like Chloroseptic. (Chlorophenols are common problems with wild yeast.) I can keep my beers happy for a month or longer with little falloff in quality.

Can you get good, even excellent results with dry yeast? Sure.

But google "dry yeast contamination" and you'll see there are a lot of problem dry yeasts out there.

Regards,

ScoopKW