Hangin' with the peeps

[jaybee]

FG (and others): is your problem that the hot dog article appeared in the New York Times (or the hamburger story in Saveur), or that it appeared at all? What if it had been published in the Village Voice or the Daily News. Would you have the same objection? From your comments, I think not. (I thought it was a really crappy story by the way. Very superficial and fizzee).

So am I right to conclude that you think this is "stooping" or "slumming" for the Times? Well, they are (increasingly) a business more than a "journal". Their overt strategies to build audience and cater to new readers and younger readers is daily more obvious. The demographics of newspaper readership are like that of Cadillac buyers--"older." Advertisers want young people. Ergo, the Times wants young people. Ergo, hot dogs. Maybe soon we'll see a comparative tasting of bubble gums written by Hesser.

Steve P makes the point that there is little inherently interesting in an article about hamburgers or hot dogs. I recall not long ago we had a long thread about hot dogs, how best to cook them etc. And a new thread came up just last week. Another thread about the best hamburgers in NYC led me to City Hall, which I lovel. So obviously the subject is not without its fans.

[jaybee]

I hesitate even to say this on an American thread, but I honestly cannot conceive what there is to like in a hot dog.

Written by one whose national dish is bangers, fried bread, kippers and eggs, swimming in grease and washed down with warm beer.

[Fat Guy]

FG (and others):  is your problem that the hot dog article appeared in the New York Times (or the hamburger story in Saveur), or that it appeared at all?

Neither. My problem is that the article is bad. It represents an editorial and journalistic coming-together of people who just don't get it, and I think that's inevitable given the Times's editorial foundations. The same article would never appear in the Village Voice; it's inconceivable. If Sietsema wrote on the same subject, it would likely be worth reading. I neither reject the possibility of a good hot dog nor a good hot dog article. And just as you'd never see that article in the Voice, you'll likely never see a good article of this sort in the Times (unless Asimov writes it, because he has for so long been allowed free rein within this niche and he does get it). There's far too much non-hot-dog-related self-consciousness in it at every level of the process.

Plotnicki, you've got the makings of a crucial thread there, one that I think could be important in helping to define the eGullet community (or at least reveal the schools of thought within it). Maybe you'll start it. I agree with some of your assumptions, and not others, but it would be a shame to bury the debate here.

[John Whiting]

SteveP's point about "jaded eaters" is a good one; I think it relates to mine. There is just too much space to be filled on the subject of food -- filled with something or other, and not too challenging. I think back -- and this isn't really off the subject -- I think back to the mid 1940's in Providence RI when I used to go four times a year to the splendid little auditorium at the RI School of Design to hear the Budapest String Quartet play one work each by Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven. I didn't know most of the works they played, but there was a record collection in the Providence Public Library that had a large collection of 78s. Some of them were string quartets, and some of these were the works that the Budapest played in concert. I had a list of these and whenever one was about to be performed I'd treck from Pawtucket to Providence and spend an afternoon listening to it again and again. All that work just to hear a piece of music! Now I have all those quartets, some in multiple performances, and can listen any time I like; but it's been years since I settled down with a single composition and worried it to death like a dog with a bone.

Steve, does that make sense to you?

[tommy]

i'm not even sure if this thread has drifted yet, but my impression yesterday of that article was that it's just a fluff piece. i coudn't even get through it, and that's not because it had big words.

[Lesley C]

Steve P

Spoken like a true New Yorker with a heavy wallet. Get real.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I think there's a huge difference between an article about where you can find a good hamburger or who makes a special one (which is invaluable), than an article on how to make one which is boring. Everyone theoretically knows how to make a good burger. Get good quality meat of the right cut, with the right proportion of fat, shape the patty well, light the coals and wait until they burn down to a decent ash and then blast off. That people have their own little tricks (mine is to vitually coat the patty with kosher salt and garlic powder which burns off in the fire but the char retains their essence) is anecdotal info at best. The nuances of what one puts in their burger (like Coleman Andrews put tamari in which I think is sacreligious) pale next to the nuances of how you get those potatoes perfect in a gratin or how one gets the essence of garlic onto the potatoes.

I skimmed through the Saveur article this morning and at least they tried to make it interesting by including recipes for other types of chopped meat like Boeuf Hache etc. In reality it's unfortunate that they made the article about hamburgers and not just chopped meat in general. That's the typical type of gear-shifting that I find publications do to their readers and it's a disservice.

John - First I have to say that in the 40's I was a good minus 10 years old. Are you saying that the type of obsession we have as young men (or women) about things like finding the best pizza etc. is a useful phase for an eater, but one we grow out of because ultimately we gain so much experience, both anecdotal and otherwise that it is uneccessary to be that immerssed in it? If that is your point (among others), I can say that it is true for me. For example, I am happy knowing that Katz's has the best pastrami. And I enjoy eating it when I have the jonses for it. But I don't really have the obsession to determine if another one is better and I would never set off on a a mission to find the best one. But that is something I would have done when I was younger. There isn't enough diversity in a pastrami sandwich for me to start really comparing them. I'm just happy having someone like Fat Guy telling me where the best one is and going to eat it.

But I must say that my attitude about more complex foods and dishes is not as casual. It is meaningful to me that a chef like Passard might have figured out how to squeeze the most flavor out of carrots and I'm interested in trekking across the globe to try them. Same with going to Barolo to taste with two winemakers, one old school and one modern to understand how they manage to make the wines so different. That level of subtlety just doesn't exist on the hamburger/pastrami/hot dog level. But if your were making a different point, go ahead and expound.

Lesley C - Hey watch the class warfare there . But the point I made is a good one (even though I say so myself.) The restaurants in NYC that William Grimes's readers are most interested in like Le Cirque, Jean-Georges, Bouley etc. are the ones that are most likely to serve special meals that an anonymous reviewer isn't offered. I know this to be the case from being a regular at Bouley Bakery for about a six month period. Each time I went they prepared a special menu for me. They never served the same dish twice. Quite often my dining companions would be eating dishes that I ate two to three weeks prior, and I was on the newer preparation. But almost none of the dishes were on the menu.

Now although this would happen for me without asking, in reality, anyone could have asked for it. You just had to know how to do it. So when the NY Times reviewed Bouley Bakery, and they reviewed the dishes on the menu, were they really doing their readers a service? Not that a review of Bouley's Shrimp in the Greek Pastry dough wasn't important to them but, if 60% of the people dining in the restaurant are eating different food, what exactly does a "fair review" of the restaurant mean? Is it the average meal served there or is the meal served to the average diner? And I say that without making any value judgements about which one is preferrable other than to say that journalism should be about getting the whole story out there. Not a story that is viewed through the tinted glasses of only one type of customer.

[Fat Guy]

"someone like Fat Guy"

I dare you to define that category.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"someone like Fat Guy"

Hmm let's see. That would include,

Sietsema

Leff

Asimov (less so than the others but possibly)

The Stern's

Irene Sax

Sylvia Carter

and a few others.

In fact I am of the school that believes that any recommendation from a credible source needs to be verified. Like Mrs. P was telling me over our sushi last night that last weeks Long Island section made the claim that some Japanese in Masapequa was "the best on Long Island." To me a claim like that deserves at least one meal.

[Sandra Levine]

Everyone theoretically knows how to make a good burger. Get good quality meat of the right cut, with the right proportion of fat, shape the patty well, light the coals and wait until they burn down to a decent ash and then blast off.

But ... every day there are people who are making hamburgers for the first time. Articles like this can serve them well. The right cut of meat and percentage of fat is not obvious to the beginning cook.

[Jinmyo]

Sandra, I know what you mean. But I have the Saveur article and have flipped through it. As Steve P says, there's not much to say in that venue. Here on eGullet we can wax expansively on burgers and hot dogs because often the "conversation" of the thread as a whole isw interesting.

But good as it might be, a burger can only be so good.

[Sandra Levine]

Yes. I should have qualified my previous post with the caveat that I have not read the article in question.

[Gavin Jones]

but my impression yesterday of that article was that it's just a fluff piece.  i coudn't even get through it,

Maybe because you'd assumed an article on "hot" dogs was a very different sort of article. If you're hearing what I'm saying...

[Steve Plotnicki]

Sandra - I think that Saveur is above the heads of people who are making hamburgers for the first time. If you are at the Saveur level, you have already eaten, and probably made your fair share of burgers. I would feel less of a need to criticize Food and Wine or Bon Apetit than Saveur for an article about burgers. But what bothers me most about the Saveur article is the cover. Had they not focused on hamburgers, but all different types of chopped meat, and the cover was inserts of various types of chopped meat, and it was all tied together by how various ethnic groups in the U.S. grill chopped meat during the summer, it might have had a bit more weight to it. But that still really isn't a cover story up to Saveur standards in my book.

I think one of Fat Guys main points was that snooty publications like The Times and Saveur have no business writing about the food habits of the common man. Did I get that right Fat Guy? And it isn't that the snooty people who read those papers don't do or like common things, they are just not interesting in the way that the usual topics they write about are. And when they do so, it seems like they are reaching below their ordinary readership to make a point that they're not snooty. Or,. they are doing it to redefine who their readership is.

[Jinmyo]

Mr. Steven Plotnicki, I'll thank you not to engage in class warfare by calling Saveur and NYTimes readers "snooty".

Anti-snootyism has no place here. Or anywhere worth being.

I trust we shall not need to have this conversation again.

My lawyer Seymour has your lawyer on speed-dial and is poised to act like an avenging angel should this not be the case.

Webcam of Seymour:

Okay, so his finger's not actually poised. But his secretary's always is.

[Lesley C]

Class warfare??? Didn't you people have a revolution in 1775?

Steve, if it weren't for your terrific Côtes du Rhône recommendations, I'd really go to town on you on this one. But in an effort to be civil...

When I review restaurants, I'm not thinking of the food fetishists out there like you, and to some extent me. I'm thinking of the majority. Call them middle class, lower class what you will, most newspaper audiences do not include many Saveur subscribers, and certainly not the kind of people who like to increase their sense of self-importance by ordering off the menu. Ordering off the menu is such a load of horse shit anyway. A restaurant is a business, and the menu lists what they sell. I'm sure they can pull off a lot of pretty things on the side, but frankly I don't care. I'm writing for the masses (if I was writing a feature on the restaurant, its chef, its history and the like, then I might make a mention of it). I'm there for the people who might want to read a review before risking half a week's pay. Obviously, you can afford to take risks at restaurants and eat and drink whatever you want --on or off the menu. Most people don't have that privilege.

Oh and just a little "off the menu" tip: When I worked as a pastry chef in a restaurant in France, we HATED people who ordered off menu.

By the way, you were right. Gramenon was fantastic!

[Fat Guy]

"someone like Fat Guy"

Hmm let's see. That would include,

Sietsema

Leff

Asimov (less so than the others but possibly)

The Stern's

Irene Sax

Sylvia Carter

and a few others.

Have you ever read anything I've written?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Lesley C - Did you actually go to Gramenon? What was it like? I love that area of Provence. It's sort of, I don't want to say unknown as much as I want to say untravelled compared to the more popular regions like St. Remy etc.

As for the masses, well I wonder exactly what the real deal on restaurants are. At a place like Daniel, how much of their customer base are regulars? And when you talk about people who spend a half weeks pay on a meal like that, just how much of their business is made up of those people? I don't want to upset you by saying this (and this might prompt you to "go to town") but, I would bet that the "masses" never go to Daniel. And the level of most restaurant reviews are directed at a group of people who either don't really exist, or are a small percentage of Daniel's business. But I'm just guessing. Maybe someone with real knowledge can add to this.

I have to add to this, and this might be what makes food unique, I can't think af another reviewer at a newspaper who would qualify the performance they are reviewing based on whether someone should blow a half a weeks pay on doing it. If you read a newpapers's review of a chamber music concert, the issue isn't cost, it is measuring the performance *against all performances including the best possible performance.* Same with films or theater.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Oh. You meant someone who writes like you. Not someone who might possibly write about some of the same things you write about Ohhhhhhhhhhhh.

[John Whiting]

Are you saying that the type of obsession we have as young men (or women) about things like finding the best pizza etc. is a useful phase for an eater, but one we grow out of because ultimately we gain so much experience, both anecdotal and otherwise that it is uneccessary to be that immerssed in it?

I might have said that, but what was principally on my mind was the fact that we value information most when it's in short supply. We're now the victims of sensory overload; and, as Marshall MacLuhan observed, overstimulation leads to narcosis.

[Robert Schonfeld]

Steve P wrote:

To me this is just one more example that the "Cheap Eats" aspect of dining not being very interesting on an analytical level.

I'm sitting here before leaving for the dreaded barbecue. Nothing like standing around in near-100 degree heat watching someone commit a crime with a gas grill.

I think the FG is right that Steve's post gets at fundamental differences in the appreciation of food. For me, there is as much to appreciate from a sensory - and even from a critical - standpoint, in a superbly well-prepared hamburger, or, dare I say it, in a plate of handmade tagliatelle touched with the juices from a veal roast, as there is in Adria's golden egg or his deconstructed brioche. There may not be as much to analyze, but there is as much pleasure, albeit of a dramatically different sort.

I would tend to agree with Steve that, while what he calls "cheap eats", and what I would call "simple food" is perhaps less of a challenge analytically, it nevertheless remains for me a passion with considerable reward.

Not that I won't someday take the cab ride to El Bulli, but I'd do the same - I've done the same - in anticipation of a perfectly fried plate of baby squid out of the water less than ten minutes.

[Lesley C]

Steve -- sweetie -- there is a world out there beyond New York, London, Provence, Paris and the Hamptons.

I remember Paul Bocuse once telling me that his customers often included people from the working classes, and that he was very happy to see them there because he sees himself as one of them. Everyone is allowed to celebrate and a good restaurant treats all its customers like kings, not just the regulars. I hate seeing anyone get obvious preferential treatment in a restaurant, just about as much as I hate people who expect it.

Yes, I went to Gramenon and tasted everything, including Michele Aubery-Laurent's homemade truffle pâté and olive oil. What a woman and what a magical place! Beaucastel was also pretty amazing, especially as Thomas Perrin was our guide. I'll post a report as soon as I can (I'm in the process of pitching the story around right now).

[Steve Klc]

John--you might "value information most when it's in short supply." I value information most when it is accessible and helpful when I need it. For thoughts or tasks I might consider sublime but you might consider mundane, or the reverse. I have to admit never thinking about how widely distributed such information is.

I also wonder if the threshold for sensory overload and overstimulation varies widely from one person to another. We all have various immunities, natural and otherwise, which aid or detract from reaching any sort of narcosis.

I'm not anywhere near such a state.

[macrosan]

to hear the Budapest String Quartet play one work each by Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven

Wow, that sounds like an interesting presentation, John. What did the fourth guy in the quartet play ?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Lesley C - And my point is not to deny the Homme de la Poste who is an amateur de cuisine of his Soupe de Truffe at Bocuse. The issue is, isn't that person entitled to the knowledge of what a restaurant is capable of, in addition to knowing what the average Jean is usually served? Why does he have to wait until he is "insider with a food fetish" to get that info?

I have yet to meet Michelle but I have some friends who were friends with her deceased husband (a sad story in itself) and they say he was one of the greatest guys in all of France. Did it smell like violets at her house? The wines smell from violets. Their must be a field of violets nearby. Lavender too. If you're nice and call me "Sweetie" more often, if and when you come down to NYC, I have magnums of 1995 Gramenon Cuvee Pascal that I will open. That was the top cuvee at the time (replaced with "La Meme".) The wine is awesome.

Robert S. - I will never tire of reading articles on cheap eats/simple food. Nor will I ever stop collecting books on the topic. But the last thing that interests me is what the recipe for the doner kebab is that they serve at Yatagan (my favorite doner) on McDougal Street. Or what they stuff Boar's Head hot dogs with.

John W. - I guess we value anything the most when it's in short supply. Including information. I can't say that my being jaded to information about hamburgers is a bad thing. It's quite different than not wanting to eat them. At least our sensory overload hasn't diminished our ability to appreciate things. As for music, having been exposed to an unlimited amount of music over the years, I have settled listening to basically two recordings over and over again. I'm trying to hear them perfectly.