Decanting Champagne

[wkl]

A couple of issues ago Food and Wine had an article about Maxamilian Riedel, where he claimed he liked to suprise his "American friends" by decanting champagne. He claimed Americans think champagne needs to be full of bubbles. The possible snootiness of this aside, has anyone ever tried this? I have heard of this before but never tried it. Is this common practice in France or Europe in general? Does it change the wine for the better?

[Brad Ballinger]

There are two reasons for decanting any wine -- 1) to separate the wine from the sediment, and 2) to aerate the wine, which can "soften" the harshness of the tannin or acidity.

Champagne used to have to be decanted to remove sediment before disgorgement was perfected. So, today, we're really dealing with reason number 2. Some Champagne may benefit from decanting if the wine is overly acidic or if the ferocity of the mousse (bubbles) is such that it would give an impression of the wine being too acidic. This aeration can take place in the decanter or in the glass. But sometimes the mousse imparts a creamy-ness to the texture of the wine, that many enjoy and would find lacking if they took the time to let the bubbles dissipate.

So I guess it depends on one's preferences. Some people choose not to decant still wines that others would not drink unless they were decanted. I would guess that individual preferences likely guide the decision on whether or not to decant sparkling wine as well.

[JohnL]

A couple of issues ago Food and Wine had  an article about Maxamilian Riedel, where he claimed he liked to suprise his "American friends" by decanting champagne. He claimed Americans think champagne needs to be full of bubbles. The possible snootiness of this aside, has anyone ever tried this? I have heard of this before but never tried it. Is this common practice in France or Europe in general? Does it change the wine for the better?

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being the cynical curmudgeon i am--I would not be suprised to see a line of Riedel Champagne decanters or a special glass for decanted champagne soon.

I own several Riedel glasses--they are nice. I also find Riedel to be a master salesman--fine glassware aside--there's more than a little snake oil at play here!

also Brad pretty much noted why wine should be decanted--it would be interesting to hear (read) Mr Riedel elaborate on this topic!

[wkl]

Actually, Mr Riedel suggests using a "silver pichet" as a decanter for this.He laughed and said "..and I'm a glass guy!" Or words to that effect. I think www.foodandwine.com has the article somewhere on the site.

[Brad Ballinger]

being the cynical curmudgeon i am--I would not be suprised to see a line of Riedel Champagne decanters or a special glass for decanted champagne soon.

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It's not from Riedel, but William Yeoward Crystal makes a Champagne jug for the purpose.

Also, I just read that someone at The French Laundry who had ordered a rose Champagne had it brought to their table in a decanter and poured into syrah stems to enhance the fruit.

[JohnL]

being the cynical curmudgeon i am--I would not be suprised to see a line of Riedel Champagne decanters or a special glass for decanted champagne soon.

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It's not from Riedel, but William Yeoward Crystal makes a Champagne jug for the purpose.

Also, I just read that someone at The French Laundry who had ordered a rose Champagne had it brought to their table in a decanter and poured into syrah stems to enhance the fruit.

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Interesting.

what do you think of all this?

It sounds to me like a bit of overkill and voodoo at play.

Though--a slightly broader glass could conceivably focus the fruit more than a traditional flute.

I have a hard time buying into the decanting part--is there an upside to "flatten" out a fine champagne via aeration?

[Brad Ballinger]

I have a hard time buying into the decanting part--is there an upside to "flatten" out a fine champagne via aeration?

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As I wrote above, there is an upside if by allowing some of the bubbles to dissipate, the wine doesn't come across as being as acidic. This is really a mouthfeel perception issue in my opinion, but others may see it differently. Veuve Clicquot, for example, recommends decanting their demi-sec Champagne to reduce the acidic impression casued by too many bubbles, and, therefore, allowing the drinker to experience more of the sweetness in the base wine. Could be voodoo. But this is probably one of those "your mileage may vary" issues.

[russ parsons]

Also, I just read that someone at The French Laundry who had ordered a rose Champagne had it brought to their table in a decanter and poured into syrah stems to enhance the fruit.

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i've had this a couple of times, both at the french laundry and at per se. i would never suggest that it is a revolutionary new idea that is going to sweep the wine world. but it is interesting the way decanting, thereby removing the bubbles, affects the flavor of the wine. it is a curiosity, but, of course, given the talent of those involved, a very delicious one.

[slkinsey]

Unlike with still wines, where one is more likely to decant older wine, I would think that sparkling wines might be the opposite. I recently read a very interesting book on the science of champagne, and one of the notable differences between aged champagne and young champagne is the amount of dissolved gas (with the aged wine having less). This leads directly to smaller bubble size and other things that are perceived as being desired qualities.

[Brad Ballinger]

Unlike with still wines, where one is more likely to decant older wine, I would think that sparkling wines might be the opposite.  I recently read a very interesting book on the science of champagne, and one of the notable differences between aged champagne and young champagne is the amount of dissolved gas (with the aged wine having less).  This leads directly to smaller bubble size and other things that are perceived as being desired qualities.

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Sam,

Older still wines are decanted primarily to remove sediment that is thrown during the time the wine ages in the bottle. But since wine breaks down with exposure to oxygen, which occurs very slowly over time in bottle, older wines will be more "fragile" and will break down more quickly. Decanting to aerate an older wine isn't generally the primary reason. And some decant young still wine to introduce more oxygen into it to "soften" (not the best word, but you know what I mean) it.

Regarding older bubbly having less PSI and gas, that is true. In some wines, this makes the texture of the mousse less coarse than it might otherwise appear in a younger wine.

[budrichard]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

The Champagne houses go to great lengths to put bubbles in thier wine. Anyone that thinks that Champagne tastes better without bubbles mistaken. Even old Champagnes would suffer from decanting as the aeration would kill anything left. -Dick

[Daniel Rogov]

There may or may not be both an upside and a downside to everything but in the case of decanting Champagne all I can do is recall an episode when a waiter brought my Krug to the table with a decanter. I asked him what the decanter was for. He told me. I very quietly whispered... "you do that and first I shoot you and then I commit suicide".

Mmmm....I do feel rather strongly about the issue.

[jrufusj]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

The Champagne houses go to great lengths to put bubbles in thier wine. Anyone that thinks that Champagne tastes better without bubbles mistaken. Even old Champagnes would suffer from decanting as the aeration would kill anything left. -Dick

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And some of them, at least, will go to a bit of length to take some of them back out or to soften the wine.

At Philipponnat, they decant their top wine (Clos des Goisses). Take from that what you will...but like most absolutist statements, the one above is at least subject to question.

Now, that being said, I don't decant Champagne myself. But I do sometimes serve big younger wines in the same glasses I use for white Burg.

Jim

[M.X.Hassett]

I recently read a very interesting book on the science of champagne

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Sam, what book?

[budrichard]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

The Champagne houses go to great lengths to put bubbles in thier wine. Anyone that thinks that Champagne tastes better without bubbles mistaken. Even old Champagnes would suffer from decanting as the aeration would kill anything left. -Dick

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And some of them, at least, will go to a bit of length to take some of them back out or to soften the wine.

At Philipponnat, they decant their top wine (Clos des Goisses). Take from that what you will...but like most absolutist statements, the one above is at least subject to question.

Now, that being said, I don't decant Champagne myself. But I do sometimes serve big younger wines in the same glasses I use for white Burg.

Jim

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Please supply a reference that documents the decanting of Philipponnat before service. Champagnes for bottles bigger than Magnums are decanted in to the bigger bottles from standard bottles. I have NEVER heard of a house that decants its wine befpre service. -Dick

[slkinsey]

I recently read a very interesting book on the science of champagne

Sam, what book?

Uncorked : The Science of Champagne by Gérard Liger-Belair.

[jrufusj]

Please supply a reference that documents the decanting of Philipponnat before service. Champagnes for bottles bigger than Magnums are decanted in to the bigger bottles from standard bottles. I have NEVER heard of a house that decants its wine befpre service. -Dick

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Philipponnat reps do it when they show older vintages of Clos des Goisses at tastings. Generally, just about a half hour to allow the wine to open up.

Additionally, Moët recommends decanting its demi-sec. Don't know if it's still there, but the decanting recommendation used to be on its website.

Now you've heard.

Jim

[Syrah]

There may or may not be both an upside and a downside to everything but in the case of decanting Champagne all I can do is recall an episode when a waiter brought my Krug to the table with a decanter.  I asked him what the decanter was for. He told me. I very quietly whispered... "you do that and first I shoot you and then I commit suicide". 

Mmmm....I do feel rather strongly about the issue.

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I agree with you. Surely the bubbles are a main part of the point.

[balex]

(These are not my views: I am just presenting an argument I have encountered(

The third reason to decant wines has been the same reason that you "decant" sugar or salt or mustard: to put it in a more attractive serving container. Allegedly it used to be considered "middle class" not to decant champagne. I think I recall Lord Beaumont being cited as the source of this opinion. The idea is that everyhting you serve on the table should be out of its original container and in one of your own containers.

I think this attitude died out in its purest form during the last century, but you still encounter its traces from time to time.

I

[budrichard]

Please supply a reference that documents the decanting of Philipponnat before service. Champagnes for bottles bigger than Magnums are decanted in to the bigger bottles from standard bottles. I have NEVER heard of a house that decants its wine befpre service. -Dick

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Philipponnat reps do it when they show older vintages of Clos des Goisses at tastings. Generally, just about a half hour to allow the wine to open up.

Additionally, Moët recommends decanting its demi-sec. Don't know if it's still there, but the decanting recommendation used to be on its website.

Now you've heard.

Jim

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Things are often not quite what one always thinks. Since no specific reference was supplied, I went to the source. I could not find a reference on Moet's website for decanting.

My question to Philipponnat:

"Your website states , "Clos des Goisses deserves to be put into a decanter. With in the ample curves of a ewer, it reaches its full potential as a fine wine: aromatic power, finesse and voluptuousness."

Do you really mean to reccammend decanting a Champagne and lose all the mousse? I have never heard of decanting a Champagne, even an old bottle. Please let me know if this is true and how do you decant or do you mean to slowly pour into a decanter as you would fill bottles bigger than Magnums. Thank you."

Reply by email:

"Dear Sir,

If you value the effervescence above all, do not decant it, of course.

However, if you are after taste, such champagnes do benefit from oxygenation,

which is why careful and slow pouring into a decanter 5-10 minutes before serving is a good idea,

but certainly not mandatory for enjoying Clos des Goisses.

Be careful not to create to much turmoil so as to lose as little mousse as possible.

Approx. 1/3 of the gas will be lost in the process.

Clos des Goisses needs it because when we release it it is recently disgorged (still in want of oxygen)

and has spent 10 years on the lees (which are “reductive” hence a further want for oxygen).

If the bottle has been disgorged for more than 2 or 3 years, do not do it.

Enjoy your Clos des Goisses

Wishing you a happy New Year.

Charles Philipponnat"

So, there are times to decant for recently disgorged and times not to decant for older disgorged bottles.

Also significant is the decanting method, slow.

Since about 1/3 of the effervescense is lost, for those of us that value bubbles, do not decant.

5 to 10 minutes is the reccamended time, not a half hour.

We have had a number of parties that we have given where I tell the servers not to fill glasses with Champagne in anticipation of service because they will lose mousse if not immedialtely consumed while sitting. I think i will continue to to minimize bubble loss!-Dick

Edited December 30, 2005 by budrichard (log)

[Brad Ballinger]

Clos des Goisses needs it because when we release it it is recently disgorged (still in want of oxygen)

and has spent 10 years on the lees (which are “reductive” hence a further want for oxygen).

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This I can go along with. But depending on how reductive the wine is (which one wouldn't know until smelling and tasting it, I'm of the mind much of the needed oxygen can be obtained through aeration in the glass.

Edited to add: Thanks for taking the time to write!

Edited December 30, 2005 by Brad Ballinger (log)