Vacherin in Paris

[Ptipois]

Try a Mont d'Or from Switzerland, instead of the French ones.

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I think it depends more on the producer and aging than on the origin. Basically, mont-d'or is the same cheese either side of the border.

[getxo]

Ptipois,

I appreciate your thoughtful comments on the state of cheese in your country.

Could you list some of your favorite places in Paris to buy cheese and why you like them?

And also, could you recommend a restaurant in Paris famous for its cheese courses (like Picholine in New York).

Much obliged,

Henry

[Bux]

. . . .

I think Americans tend to overemphasize ripeness largely because the kinds of cheeses that ripen have traditionally been rare here.

I have noticed that. I also think it is part of the general Americain over-romanticizing about French stuff, on the principle that the stronger and runnier it is, the Frenchier it is. It actually is not so, as far as Frenchness is concerned. Liking it that way or another is a different matter.

. . . .

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I think you're right. More than a bit of romaticizing probably comes into play when it comes to those of us who like France, or any foreign culture. When it comes to strong flavors, I suspect there's a bit of machismo involved as well. In a way, it's probably not all that different from the reasons some people decide to develop a taste for chili peppers as hot as can be. I have to wonder if the taste for offal, among those who weren't raised with that taste isn't part of the same syndrome. This isn't meant as a put down of anyone, but more of soul searching. I developed a taste for boudin and andouillette as an adult well into my twenties and a taste for some other things even later. (Clarification for Americans reading here. The vrai andouille and andouillette is not a hot cajun sausage, but sausage made from chitlins and often with a resulting barnyardy aroma.) I would be as guilty as the next person for simply deciding I'm going to like this stuff and eat it until I develop the taste for it. Blood and guts is more a part of my wife's food culture than it is mine, but marriage accounts for some of my exposure and consequently to my taste for dishes that are gutsier and more unctuous that those of my childhood comfort foods and I still take pride in converting American friends.

[Bux]

Ptipois,

I appreciate your thoughtful comments on the state of cheese in your country.

Could you list some of your favorite places in Paris to buy cheese and why you like them?

And also, could you recommend a restaurant in Paris famous for its cheese courses (like Picholine in New York).

Much obliged,

Henry

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Henry, I'm not sure I understand you and I suspect that Ptipois may not as well or more so in terms of restaurant cheese courses. There are, or have been, in Paris, restaurant(s) specializing in courses in which cheese is the main, or principle ingredient. The last time I was at Picholine in NY, they weren't doing that, but they had an excellent cheese cave and offered an extraordinary selection of cheeses as a cheese course before, or as replacement for, dessert, albeit less naturally than such would be presented in a good country two restaurant in France. For some reason, I feel I've experienced my best cheese courses in good country restaurants in France, although I'm sure Ptitpois and others can make good recommendations in Paris.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I think you're right. More than a bit of romaticizing probably comes into play when it comes to those of us who like France, or any foreign culture.....

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Perhaps we are arriving at something close to my theory. Centuries ago, country people enjoyed fresh cheeses. City people encountered them (the cheeses) later in their (the cheese's) life. Few poor city people could afford them. Royalty could. Royalty were served older cheeses. They acclaimed these aged cheeses. Those around the court and those who could afford the cheese that arrived in the cities established the proper afinage of certain cheeses. Nice fairytale, anyway, non?

It does explain why some cheese that is delicately delicious when it is new is sought when it is profoundly 'aged'.

[Ptipois]

Perhaps we are arriving at something close to my theory.  Centuries ago, country people enjoyed fresh cheeses.  City people encountered them (the cheeses) later in their (the cheese's) life.  Few poor city people could afford them.  Royalty could. Royalty were served older cheeses.  They acclaimed these aged cheeses.  Those around the court and those who could afford the cheese that arrived in the cities established the proper afinage of certain cheeses.  Nice fairytale, anyway, non?

It does explain why some cheese that is delicately delicious when it is new is sought when it is profoundly 'aged'.

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As is often the case with food, this might be more a matter of who produces what, where you are located and what is at hand. I have never heard of that theory. Mechanically, it figures somehow, but the taste for ripened cheeses, in France, seems to reconciliate all classes if there ever was a means to do so. However, it is obvious that producers (i.e. the "country" people) had better access to cheeses in their fresh state, but they were well aware of the virtues of ripe cheese. It is also obvious that the urban nobility were more likely to get them in their aged state. But they had fresh cheeses too. I do not know how people developed their taste for aged cheeses but I'd suspect it dates back to much earlier than French aristocratic society.

[Ptipois]

Ptipois,

I appreciate your thoughtful comments on the state of cheese in your country.

Could you list some of your favorite places in Paris to buy cheese and why you like them?

And also, could you recommend a restaurant in Paris famous for its cheese courses (like Picholine in New York).

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Well, in Paris there is at least one good crémier within walking distance of every métro stop, not to mention the local open markets, where cheese stalls offer premium quality. I never go to fancy fromagers for I have never found them to be much better than what's available around the corner.

As for the cheese course at restaurants, as I wrote earlier, it is not so common as it used to be. I never order it except at starred restaurants where the plateau is attractive and I need the cheese to help push down the excessive quantities I've just eaten (cheese does have that power). I never order cheese at bistrots unless I want to replace one course with a cheese plate (and that's very rare). And I never go to cheese restaurants, for lack of interest in them. I like cheese as a snack, not as a course, though I do enjoy a good fondue, raclette or berthoud in the right conditions.

Of course the cheese course at Gagnaire is always amazing. That is the only precise example I can provide.

Edited November 7, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[Ptipois]

When it comes to strong flavors, I suspect there's a bit of machismo involved as well.

Oh yes, most definitely. And this transcends nationality for I have often seen French guys exhibit their tolerance to very stinky cheeses as a proof that they were no sissies.

I developed a taste for boudin and andouillette as an adult well into my twenties and a taste for some other things even later. (Clarification for Americans reading here. The vrai andouille and andouillette is not a hot cajun sausage, but sausage made from chitlins and often with a resulting barnyardy aroma.)

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Andouillette. Terrific. Nicely, slowly browned in a little fat, served quite crispy and golden, with a crunchy salad, real frites and mustard sauce. Yum!

[bleudauvergne]

My husband and I enjoy cheeses at different stages and appreciate the flavor as it develops. There are definitely limits and the more I learn about French cheese, the more aware I am of the subtleties of different cheeses as they age. There are some, like St. Nectaire, and chevres like the Picodin which definitely tastes better in my opinion when it reaches a certain point of ripeness, a question of the flavors that come out and not bravado or romaticism at all. The more choice we have about what state we eat our cheese, the more we develop our preferences about the perfect point of ripeness one cheese or another is going to have.

The cheese purveyors here treat cheeses in a certain way, turning the small flat cheeses like St. Marcellin, St. Felicien to make sure they age evenly. When they sell it, they ask how you like it. St. Marcellin, a cheese local to Lyon, is served in restaurants here to French and foreigners alike, runny. We get it from the shop before it reaches that state. A cheese like that develops quickly and part of the enjoyment of it is to taste it at several stages in its own dish over the course of a week or so.

Aged does not mean dead. There is a big difference between a fromage affine and a dead cheese. Just about everyone can tell the difference. One cheese that does not tolerate plastic is Epoisse. It dies quickly when deprived of air. However Epoisse that has been properly aged has much better character in my opinion than the new cheese. When we went to the town of Epoisse, we went to the restaurant attached to the fromagerie Berthelot. The cheese we were served there had obviously spent some time in the cave, but it also had a stripe of firm cream in the center.

It should be noted that some raw milk cheeses like Cantal are aged for months and months, and sometimes over a year in a cave before it ever reaches the market.

[Bux]

For the record, I love fresh cheese, fromage blanc, good ricotta and the like. I also kiss my son-in-law and grandson. I do not need to be seen eating andouille and livarot.