Trotter and Tramonto square off over Foie Gras

[Miami Danny]

So, is Tramonto fat, or was Trotter trying to say Rick's an alkie?

Another point-do all chefs have to like all other chefs? Or play nice with them? For example, part of the charm of Mr. Bourdain's writing is his disdain for celebrity chefs, i.e., his peers. And he's the most popular food writer today!

[slkinsey]

Perhaps it might be helpful to sum up the pertinent elements as we understand them:

What did Trotter say?  To my mind, there are several important things:

"I just said, 'Enough is enough here. I can't really justify this,'" Trotter said. "What I have seen, it's just inappropriate. There are too many great things to eat out there that I don't believe that any animal would have to go through that for our benefit."

Trotter said he stopped including foie gras on his menus about three years ago but only is talking about the decision now.

This is a big public statement in the Chicago Tribune, one of the leading newspapers in the country.

Ahh..this one bothers me. Did Trotter really stop serving foie gras around March 2002? I dug around a bit and I dont see any significant detail in the animal activists against foie gras timeline during that time. Maybe, I am guessing, a couple of weeks/months before July 2003, he stopped serving foie gras.

Given Trotter's apparent disdain for the anti foie gras activists, there is no reason to suspect that his decision to stop serving foie gras at his restaurant was influenced by the anti foie gras activists -- nor to suspect that they would have been aware of this decision on his part.

With all due respect, given a choice between trusting the time period a reporter for the Chicago Tribune says Trotter told him or your supposition -- I'll stick with the Trib. Not that I think it's important anyway. It really doesn't matter whether it was three years, two years or two months ago. The important part is that he says he doesn't serve it now and, to the extent that one cares about the hypocrisy issue, that a reasonable time period for this prohibition would seem to include the date of the event at which we know foie gras was served in his restaurant. I suppose it is even more important that Trotter says it's been around three years than whether it has actually been around three years. But, again, I don't think it's important.

[canucklehead]

Just wading in here....

It seems like the real issue here being obscured by alot of who said what first. Both CT and RT are big boys and should know better than to blabber in the manner that they both did.

RT's argument that if you are against cruelty then you would not serve any meat - is indicative of the whole 'slippery slope' position that makes any common sense discussion impossible.

I was finally able to read the article and CT himself says that he against any law that would ban the sale and use of foie gras and dissassociates himself from any animal-rights group that would hijack his decision for their own cause. CT has made a choice, a personal choice, that he would not serve in his restaurant. He also wants people to continue to have the choice - not a legislative ban on the product. I agree that he may need to be consistent in implementing his decision in his enterprises - but his fundamental reasoning is not unsound.

Derrick - I re-read your excellent peice in EoA last night. It was fair and raised some really important points. For me - I really like foie gras but I have become more and more troubled by it. No matter how nice the farm is - the bottom line is that the ducks are forced to eat more than they would choose to. The EoA article itself notes that if the force feeding continued for more than two weeks - the liver cells would burst.

The CEO of Whole Foods (who is vegan) wants WF to sell animals that have had a diginified life. I fervently believe that you must respect the animal that has given its life for your food. This means not wasting anything, humane slaughter, and tring to provide a reasonable life for the animal while it was alive.

I have not been able to reconcile the force feeding of ducks even though it produces something so delicous. And now I see foie gras in, frankly, vulgar applications. I mean, foie gras ice cream, breaded and deep fried, stuffed in huge platefuls of ravioli.... where is the respect for the ingredient?

As I read this thread (and believe me, it pains me to be in agreement with Faustian Bargain on the basic issue of foie gras) I think there has been a drift in topic and now this thread is about who is right and who is wrong - not the merits of the issue itself.

Funny how it was paralleled the whole CT vs RT thing in the first place.

Edited April 1, 2005 by canucklehead (log)

[TJHarris]

So, is Tramonto fat, or was Trotter trying to say Rick's an alkie? 

Another point-do all chefs have to like all other chefs?  Or play nice with them?  For example, part of the charm of Mr. Bourdain's writing is his disdain for celebrity chefs, i.e., his peers.  And he's the most popular food writer today!

←

Whether RT has a weight issue or a drinking problem should be irrelevent here. CT was unprofessional with his comments.

Do all chefs have to like each other? No. Does this lack of courtesy and unprofessional behavior reflect poorly on the profession? Absolutely.

[Bux]

. . . . And now I see foie gras in, frankly, vulgar applications.  I mean, foie gras ice cream, breaded and deep fried, stuffed in huge platefuls of ravioli....  where is the respect for the ingredient?. . . .

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I sense a very narrow view of food in that statement. I've had foie gras ice cream, deep fried foie gras and some of the most magnificent raviloli in the world that was stuffed with foie gras and served with a truffle sauce. Moreover, I can tell you that all three dishes were to my taste some of the most refined dishes I've ever had. No chef has ever treated a product more respectfully in my humble opinion.

[canucklehead]

. . . . And now I see foie gras in, frankly, vulgar applications.  I mean, foie gras ice cream, breaded and deep fried, stuffed in huge platefuls of ravioli....  where is the respect for the ingredient?. . . .

←

I sense a very narrow view of food in that statement. I've had foie gras ice cream, deep fried foie gras and some of the most magnificent raviloli in the world that was stuffed with foie gras and served with a truffle sauce. Moreover, I can tell you that all three dishes were to my taste some of the most refined dishes I've ever had. No chef has ever treated a product more respectfully in my humble opinion.

←

Bux - you are perhaps picking on my conflicted feelings about the ingredient itself. I guess it the fact that the ingredient is so prevelant that chef's are finding new uses for it. I have the same feelings about the abundant use of shark's fins in Chinese cooking (I am Asian). Tastes great - but what did the animal have to go through so that I could enjoy it?

Please note that I am not trying to be dogmatic here - just trying to create constructive discussion.

[Bux]

Sorry, we're getting off topic here, which is really about what was reported as being said between two well known Chicago chefs. I now better understand your point that greater familiarity with foie gras in its traditional presentations by a larger audience is driving chefs to find creative uses athough raviloi and other stuffings is a very old use of foie gras. My sense is that if one doesn't agree that foie gras is a food we should be raising and marketing, it can't be treated with respect in the kichen. If one finds it a reasonable product, a chef should have as free a rein as with any other food.

I'm not exactly on Tramonto's side. I believe that even if one raises and slaughters animals for food, there is an ethical way to treat them before they're slaughtered. I've spoken my thoughts on the raising of fowl for foie gras in this thread and in a number of other threads. I understand why some people find the thought of slaughtering any animal for food to be cruel. As these ducks and geese are slaughtered for consumption, I understand some will find everything about their domestication cruel. On a larger scale, I find the "force feeding" -- and that's a particularly poor term to have been chosen for the French term gavage -- is one of the least cruel practices inflicted on poultry in this country. On the evidence, I believe these ducks lead a better than average life for domestic poultry. Battery chickens are raised and processed in an environment that is cruel to the animals and humans who work there. Again, this argument has raged and will rage again in many other threads. That people's reaction to the words exchanged between Tramonto and Trotter are highly influenced by how they view the consumption of foie gras makes it hard to avoid in this thread, but that's really the heart of the topic in my opinion.

[canucklehead]

Bux - thanks for the clarification.

[FaustianBargain]

Anyway, world famous his-onions-don't-stink Charlie Trotter comes out and he's all "I ain't serving foie gras 'cause it's all cruel and stuff," and Rick Tramonto from Tru says "You better be serving foie gras bizzitch," and Charlie Trotter's all like "Sez who?" and Rick Tramonto gets up in Charlie Trotter's buisness and says "Oh you are such a ho, you're just doing this to get more bling."

Fair and balanced reporting from Too Many Chefs Blog.

When was the last time *you* sprayed coffee(ok, so I sprayed milk because I dont do coffee..but that doesnt sound quite right, does it) over your keyboard?

edit: I just had a weird thought. Friday morning Trib will announce that it was a protracted April Fool's joke? Certain things in that article are so bizarre on so many levels, it just doesnt gel. It was, afterall, written by the entertainment guy.

Edited April 1, 2005 by FaustianBargain (log)

[gmi3804]

edit: I just had a weird thought. Friday morning Trib will announce that it was a protracted April Fool's joke? Certain things in that article are so bizarre on so many levels, it just doesnt gel. It was, afterall, written by the entertainment guy.

←

CT better hope so...

[Mabelline]

It's been fairly entertaining here

[Bux]

Certain things in that article are so bizarre on so many levels, it just doesnt gel. It was, afterall, written by the entertainment guy.

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I thought it was written by a reporter. Sometimes reporters are entertaining. Sometimes they provide food for thought. Both of these chefs are celebrities in Chicago. I didn't see anything in the article that indicated it required the special services of a food writer. I know of at least one prominent food writer who started as a sports writer. There's nothing in the article that indicated to me that Caro didn't know what he was talking about or that he wasn't acurately reporting the comments made by two grownups already familiar with being in the media spotlight.

[mcaro]

Aw, heck. I'll chime in here since I'm the reporter who started this ball rolling. (Thanks for the supportive words, Bux.)

Here are some quick answers to questions raised somewhere along this string:

1. Why an entertainment reporter? Well, that's my official title, but I write about a lot of subjects. This week I had in stories on foie gras, the Final Four and Ted Koppel. The foie gras story was by far the most interesting. I also used to be one of the Trib's movie critics. You have to wear a lot of hats and have a lot of curiosity in this biz. For what it's worth, last summer I wrote a long feature story on Grant Achatz's last night at Trio, so this wasn't my first adventure in the foodie world.

2. How did Charlie Trotter let the Trib know about his personal foie gras ban? He mentioned it during a conversation with the Tribune's restaurant critic, Phil Vettel. Phil graciously passed the info along to me because he knew I'd be interested. I called Charlie Trotter, who answered my questions. The chef never sent out a press release or anything.

3. Did Charlie Trotter really say those things about Rick Tramonto or was the whole controversy cobbled together in some unorthodox way? It all happened over the course of basic, straightforward reporting. I set up a time to talk to Charlie Trotter on the phone and called a couple of chefs in the meantime. When I interviewed Trotter the first time (there were follow-up conversations), I told him what Rick Tramonto had said, and Trotter made the comments as reported. He knew I was tape-recording the conversation and was aware that I would quote him. Before the story ran, I called back Tramonto to give him a chance to respond to Trotter's harsh words, which he did by saying, "My only comment is Charlie's in my prayers."

4. Did I have an agenda in writing the piece? Really, I don't think so. I personally found the subject fascinating because I think foie gras is delicious but I also don't eat certain foods where I suspect the animals are being treated inhumanely. I wanted to represent both sides as coherently as possible to clarify the issues for readers--and myself--so we could all draw our own conclusions.

I hope that helps.

Mark Caro

Chicago Tribune entertainment reporter

[Jason Perlow]

Welcome to the site Mark! And thanks for being so up front, I think it brings some clarity to the situation.

[Carolyn Tillie]

Thank you, Mark. It all helps. As you and I spoke privately, you know I meant to derision to you being an entertainment reporter. It just struck an odd note that the word entertainment was attached to story when, as you indicated, correspondent could have easily been substituted and raised less of a raucous.

Regardless, thank you so much for coming here and commenting and clarifying the subject matter at hand. I am sure I am not the only one who appreciates the contribution but the elucidation.

We all hope you'll come back.

Edited April 1, 2005 by Carolyn Tillie (log)

[FaustianBargain]

For what it's worth, last summer I wrote a long feature story on Grant Achatz's last night at Trio, so this wasn't my first adventure in the foodie world.

Mr.Caro, thanks for dropping by.

Few questions:

Why an entertainment reporter? Well, that's my official title, but I write about a lot of subjects.

Is it true that it was splashed on the front page of Chicago Tribune? I dont buy Chicago Tribune, you see, but I heard that it was on the front page.

re Grant Achatz, this bit from the Chicago Tribune article:

"You can't go to Whole Foods and buy a [fresh] lobe of foie gras," said former Trio chef Grant Achatz, currently preparing to open his new restaurant, Alinea. "It's just one of those items that really separates restaurants from the residential side."

Yet some restaurants and foie gras farms have been under siege.

Achatz statement #1: "You cannot go to Whole Foods and buy a [fresh]lobe of foie gras" BECAUSE WF is a 'leading organic and natural food market' and apparently, they have cut off all ties with Sonoma/Grimaud Farms after an 'expose'. Foie gras is available to the public through several other outlets. Look up the internet for details.

now,

Achatz statement #2: "It's just one of those items that really seperates restaurants from the residential side." BECAUSE it is expensive, it is a rich treat nutrient wise, the available demand does not justify the business loss that may occur when those who protest foie gras selling establishments and most importantly, many people balk at the thought of consuming foie gras, a product of perceived animal cruelty. Incidentally, this is related to Trotter's given reason for not serving foie gras at his dining establishment.

So I guess my question is this: Did Achatz mention the two statements as seperate issues or were they mentioned in the same context?

Did Charlie Trotter really say those things about Rick Tramonto or was the whole controversy cobbled together in some unorthodox way? It all happened over the course of basic, straightforward reporting. I set up a time to talk to Charlie Trotter on the phone and called a couple of chefs in the meantime. When I interviewed Trotter the first time (there were follow-up conversations), I told him what Rick Tramonto had said, and Trotter made the comments as reported. He knew I was tape-recording the conversation and was aware that I would quote him. Before the story ran, I called back Tramonto to give him a chance to respond to Trotter's harsh words, which he did by saying, "My only comment is Charlie's in my prayers."

You made an appointment with Trotter and then called up chefs Rick Trumonto, Grant Achatz, Roland Liccioni and Sarah Stegner for their comments on Trotter's comment to Phil Vettel before you yourself spoke to Trotter? Basically, you gave the opportunity to Trotter's peers to comment on a statement before you obtained a statement firsthand?

Supposing Trotter wanted a specific wording or a carefully crafted, non-political, gentle, non feather-ruffling announcement that he wishes to present to his peers who do not share his stance, he doesnt get a chance to make his presentation, does he? He has to get defensive with his initial announcement because others already have come up with their reactions and made up their mind about his position which they assume, and rightly so because it comes through a media person, is a public statement.

I wanted to represent both sides as coherently as possible to clarify the issues for readers--and myself--so we could all draw our own conclusions.

Chef Charlie Trotter

Chef Rick Tramonto

Jacques Bissonnette, export manager of the Palmex Inc., a farm in Quebec.

Chef Grant Achatz

Sen. Kay Wojcik (R-Schaumburg) introduced the Force Fed Birds Act.

Gene Bauston, Farm Sanctuary head

Guillermo Gonzalez, owner of Sonoma Foie Gras in California

Michael Ginor, Hudson Valley Foie Gras co-owner

Jeffrey Steingarten, Vogue magazine food writer

Chef Roland Liccioni

Chef Sarah Stegner

These are the people who have made an appearance in your article. How does your choice of participants represent 'both sides'? As you can see from this egullet thread, it is read by people outside of Illinois and even abroad! It is my opinion the reporting was not balanced and I dont see 'both' sides represented. Was not foie gras an issue in CA before it came to Ill? The 'other side' may be found residing on the opposite coast. Where are the other restaurant chefs who chose not to include foie gras in their menus? Where are the consumer polls? What do regular customers of Charlie Trotters feel about it? Where is the comment from Whole Foods who, as Grant Achatz rightly points out, does not carry foie gras and where is their public statement meant for Chicago Tribune about why they choose not to carry foie gras?

Once again, thanks for dropping by and the response is much appreciated.

P.S. Now that I am looking at the list of names appearing in the article, were the rest of them(other than the chefs) also interviewed before your first phone interview with Charlie Trotter?

[chuck]

I guess I just happened to read this in time to be the first to say, 'Oh, for fuck's sake...'

Mark Caro, glad to have you here. Thanks for making the original interviews a little more clear. I understand the chain of events even if others find them hard to believe.

[mcaro]

Here was the sequence: Charlie Trotter spoke to Phil Vettel, and Phil took notes on the conversation and passed them along to me. I spoke to Charlie briefly, confirmed what his position was and made arrangements to interview him more at length the next day. I talked to Grant Achatz and Rick Tramonto about their policies regarding foie gras. Grant said he'll continue to serve it but respected Charlie's decision. Rick was more critical. I talked to Charlie again, and he laid out his position in more detail and offered his much-repeated opinion about Rick. I talked to just about everyone else in the story, including the other chefs listed and some who got cut out of the story, and then went back to Charlie again. No one was being ambushed here, and the conflicts weren't due to misunderstandings; they stemmed from genuine disagreements. I'd assume you'd say the same of people arguing on this long string.

That list of sources includes a decent number of people outside of Chicago and a fair mix of people who are pro- and anti-foie gras. I called a couple of chefs in California for comment, but they didn't call back. The story is weighted toward Chicago people because, guess what? It was for the Chicago Tribune. It would've been fab to include all of those other people and facets suggested by FaustianBargain, but the story was incredibly long as it was, and I thought I'd have to whack a lot more to get it in.

Do you have any idea how unusual it is for a daily general-audience newspaper to run a 60-inch foie gras story on the front page? The bulk of the readership probably has never tasted or even heard of foie gras. The trick is to try to be as comprehensive as possible while also making the story understandable for people who aren't eGullet regulars.

As for Grant's comment about Whole Foods, the point simply was that foie gras isn't something you run down and grab at the grocery store. He'd also made the point, which got trimmed, that now you can get caviar, seafood and game more easily than foie gras. Again, this was just a way of explaining for readers what foie gras is and what role it plays at high-end restaurants. The purchasing policies of Whole Foods was pretty much beside the point.

M.

[SKinCA]

Let me be the second to say "Oh, for fucks sake!".

Faustian Bargain - let it go. I think Mr. Caro has more than answered your questions about sequence. I sincerely thank him for time here. For you to keep hammering away at him is just uncalled for.

You said upthread:

"I studied newsreporting and journalism in CA before I went to study cooking in London. I'd like to think that I know the difference between responsible journalism and sensationalistic scribbling."

You may have studied journalism, but Mr. Caro is a working journalist at a major newspaper - I think you have to concede that he may know a bit more than you do about his job. He's been really patient when you've essentially maligned his journalistic integrity more than once in this thread. You, my friend, are the sensationalistic scribbler!

FB, at this point I think you've taken devil's advocacy about as far as you can. Bully for you for sticking to your guns. It's made for some interesting reading.

Go find another "underdog" to champion.

[touaregsand]

So, is Tramonto fat, or was Trotter trying to say Rick's an alkie? 

Another point-do all chefs have to like all other chefs?  Or play nice with them?  For example, part of the charm of Mr. Bourdain's writing is his disdain for celebrity chefs, i.e., his peers.  And he's the most popular food writer today!

←

All chefs don't have to like all other chefs. Or even play nice with them. Although I've never seen chefs arguing with eachother, maybe that's because there is only one chef in the kitchen. But playing mean is a bit silly and unprofessional. As for Bourdain part of his charm for me is his self-deprecating sense of humour and irony. Although in general I'm not a fan of anyone, so I tend not to keep up with celebrities even the ones that cook. If Bourdain has disdain for other celebrity chefs just because they are famous, I'd call that a bit hypocritical. I don't get the impression that's where his disdain lies. If his disdain is for the celebrity chef model and PR fabricated bullshit talk that some (many) engage in than I'd get a good laugh out of it.

As for the name calling in the article.

Hilarious!

I have a few Trotter stories, but I won't engage in public acts of gossip.

[Timh]

I don't understand why there is any confusion of the issue. Trotter makes a statement that is in contradiction of his practices, seems plain and simple to me. Why create a "grey area" of assumptions? Semantics and hairsplitting are just distractions from the facts.

Edited April 2, 2005 by Timh (log)

[robyn]

You know - one thing this thread made me do was look up the Chef's restaurants on their web sites. I thought the Tru website was kind of interesting. First off - I didn't know Tru was part of Lettuce Entertain You. I guess that's neither here nor there - except that Lettuce Entertain You is a big force in Chicago dining. I suspect it spends a lot of advertising dollars too.

Second - I was kind of amused looking at the menus at Tru. OK - the grand tasting menu has a cold foie gras terrine. But the seafood tasting menu has a seared foie gras dish. I think if I ordered a seafood tasting menu - I wouldn't expect foie gras. I know ducks sometimes paddle in water - but that doesn't make them seafood.

So Trotter has foie gras in his restaurant at a charity gig when maybe he made noises that he doesn't serve it. And Tramonto thinks it's a fish (or - in all probability - he just thinks that people who spend a lot of money - no matter what they order - want to have some foie gras to justify the hefty bill).

I haven't been to Chicago in 3 years - but neither restaurant is on my "hot" radar screen right now - although a place like Green Zebra is. Perhaps this is an "I don't care what they say about me as long as my name is in the news" dispute between 2 somewhat dated chefs aided and abetted by an obliging reporter.

I think it's time to move on to more important things. Like who's spending time in Chicago kitchens - and cooking up new inventive delicious stuff (sorry - the plexiglass staircase with caviar on the Tru website doesn't do it for me). Robyn

[seanw]

Trotter is a friggin hypocrite, he serves moularde duck breast on his menu. Not to mention caviar, also like to know the provenance of the abalone served. I think the journalist provided the rope & Trotter duly obliged, Tramonto was being honest- i side with neither, except Robyn..new,inventive, delicious & honest stuff please!!

[Lactic Solar Dust]

I think what was behind trotter's immature comments towards Tramonto was a genuine dislike for him. Trotter's used to be the only superstar restaurant in Chicago for a long time. Superstar pertaining to restaurants where people outside of the city actually travel just to eat at this particular restaurant. But then came the first incarnation of Trio, then Tru, then the second and third incarnations of Tru, NoMi, Moto, and Alinea. trotter had the distinction of being the Midwest's Thomas Keller, but the competion on the superstar level in chicago is becoming really fierce.

[touaregsand]

except Robyn..new,inventive, delicious & honest stuff please!!

I'll pass on inventive and honest for just plain ole delicious. When the three come together that's a rare treat. When two out of three meet I'll settle for honest and deliciious, although I am more certain of delicious than honest, but then again I am even less certain of inventive. And when I read about what is considered "inventive" I wonder if the references go further back in time than 30 years or if they travel more in depth than a single, homogenizing culture.