Scottish/English

[Suvir Saran]

Are they really diffrent?  

What makes them so?

[tony h]

This could be complete nonsense - but my understanding is that different parts of the UK attracted people from different parts of India.  The cuisine differs quite markedly throughout India & the anglophiled notion of Indian cuisine, adapted to the UK palate, also developed separately.  

When eating in Scotland the "curries" bear little resemblance to those in England (Welsh curries bear no resemblance to food).  Its been a long time since I've eaten a curry in Scotland but I remember it being more buttery & creamy than those in England.  Also - Scottish pakora & nan breads are a genuine delicacies* and there's nothing I've seen in England that come close.  The English onion bhajee (spelling?) is the closes thing I've seen to a Scottish pakora - expect there are also fish, vegetable and meat varieties.

* - from a scottish point of view

[Suvir Saran]

Do you remember where some of the Indian immigrants came from?  As in what part of India?

You are on target about the regional differences.  And that has played a great role in the subtle changes we now see taking place in the INdian food movement in NYC.

As a more diverse group of Indian immigrants come here, they also bring with them the need for foods from their regions and often some expertise that is translated into hands that create new foods in this foreign land.

What are these Scottish Pakoras like?

[Hasmi]

BLH,

Do you remember a while back there was this whole Hoo Haa about where curry originated.

Some said Scotland other said England?

You dont have Haggis Curry by the way do you?

Please dont think I am taking the mick - just wondering?

Anyway where do you think the westernised curry originated Scotland or England?

When is National Curry Day by the way?

Suvir - did you know curry was voted the Nation's favourite food here?

Hasmi

[Suvir Saran]

Hasmi,

Yes I knew Curry was the favorite food there.  I have been telling friends here about that statistic.  It seems to not surprise anyone here.  

When is Curry day?  Where did it originate Hasmi?

[tony h]

Suvir / Hasmi

This really is beyond my ken.  I have no knowledge of immigration patterns or anything like that and I am embarrassed to admit that I couldn't name but a handful of Indian provinces or cities.

I wasn't really paying attention when I was in Scotland (12 years ago) - food was just something you ate.  As I was mostly vegetarian and curry houses were one of the few places where you could be guaranteed decent, cheap food.  

A pakora is a little, spicy, moist  bundle of joy, deep fried & served with a sauce to die for.  

Haggis curry?  I'm sure it exists but I've never eaten haggis - in any form.

As for regional differences in the US - yes I was aware that "curries" over there were different to those in blighty - probably for the same reasons.

It could also be something to do with availability of spices & other ingredients. Lets face it, Scotland isn't high on anyone's list of must visit food places and it certainly wasn't known for its abundance of exotica.

Another difference I noticed when I moved to Southampton (mid 80s, PhD, unfinished) - meat was different.  I can't really explain it but cuts of meat in England differed from what you'd get in Scotland - and it tasted funny - less meaty and thin tasting.  I don't have any notes (I'm not that sad) but it is a  distinct memory.

[Suvir Saran]

sounds nice... and nope none of us can remember it all.  I seem to forget even names.... have to take some of those herbs... which ones would be good for memory?  Anyone know?

[Tonyfinch]

Judging by the state of the pavements in Glasgow on Saturday and Sunday mornings, Scottish curries all have diced carrots in them

[yvonne johnson]

Now you’re really putting everyone clean off Scottish curries, Tony (Chuck-le). For others reading along unaware of the comedic source, the ubiquitous presence of carrots in vomit is from dear Billy Connolly. (But now having recently seen Bill Bailey, I think I’m favoring BB over BC.)

For some reason this came up (not that way), the other night as consort and I were chatting. When did Indian restaurants first appear on British high streets? I can only speak for the NE coast of Scotland, but I distinctly remember Chinese restaurants being there first. For a Saturday lunch treat during the mid to late 1960’s, my parents and I would go to the Yangtze River or the Red Dragon (I think it was called). I loved the chow mein. With a slightly, sickly expression, my mother would watch my father and I dig in as she ate some omelet. Do others remember this—back then, Chinese restaurants used to offer some plain dishes for the feint of heart? Anyway, be it Chinese or Indian restaurant my mother would say, “I’ll have the omelet, please”. This, of course, caused me and my father (and some waiters) to crack up.

Now, as BLH notes, Scotland has never been the eating-out Mecca of the universe, but when Indian immigrants reached my hometown (Aberdeen)—probably years after cities in England--my, were we happy to see Indian restaurants. I’d place the year around 1974 when they really took off up my way. By 1978, there was a hierarchy that included the after-pub sort as well as the more expensive.

So, simply because of distances involved, I’d say the appearance of Indian restaurants in Scotland was later than in England. And I guess Glasgow and Edinburgh got the first openings. I also think that the dishes are different north and south. Like BLH, I don’t think onion bajias, pakoras and samosas are the same in England and Scotland.

[Suvir Saran]

And now I ask you what makes the onion bajias, pakoras and samosas different in the two places?

Or is the difference very subtle that you cannot point out what it is but can taste it nonetheless?  

To most Indians Onion Bajia or Bhajia would be just another way of saying Onion Pakoras. IN some parts of India pakoras are called bhajjia.  But the base is the same for the most part.  IN some southern Indian versions a little rice flour is added to the chickpea flour batter in which the onions or other veggies are dipped and t hen fried.  But the addition of rice flour is not one even most Indians can catch.  The spices added to the batter may change from state to state and that too can often be too subtle and so not many would catch that either.  

With that in mind, I am wondering what is so different between the Scottish and English versions.  Seems exciting to discover more about.

[Tonyfinch]

I think you're barfing in the wrong street here Suvir. I don't think a study of the differences will be a particularly rewarding,let alone exciting,endeavour.

There are no features of Indian food that are particular to Scotland and I would imagine( correct me if I'm wrong) that most 'Indian' restaurants serve up bog standard curry house slop for the post pub 10 pints of lager brigade.

[jeremysco]

I believe that the number of Indian restaurants in the UK increased dramatically after Idid Amin exiled 50,000 Ugandan Asians in 1972 as part of his Africization programme.

A large number of the refugees came to the UK (whose then Prime Minister, Ted Heath, faced considerable opposition to his decision to stand by the UK's obligations).

The immigrants were dispersed over the country and especially sent to places which had available housing. These included already declining industrial areas in the north (Bradford) and Glasgow in Scotland.

One of the reasons that Amin expelled the Asians was their conspicuous commercial success. He confiscated many prosperous shops and factorys. Starting where they left off the refugees proceeded to set up businesses all over the UK. They have become an exemplary economic success story. If not always a culinary one.

Might I suggest that the differences may be down to the availability of raw ingredients when they arrived in different places and adapted the menus to local situations. The Scots have always liked rich and fatty foods when they were available. The new restaurants noticed and took it on board.

[Tonyfinch]

You're only partly right Jeremysco. Many of the Asians who came to the UK from East Africa were business people and qualified professionals.Some opened restaurants but not in large numbers. The overwhelming number of "Indian" restaurants in the UK are owned and run by Bangladeshis.

[Suvir Saran]

It is the same in the US for the most part.

[anil]

Earliest immigrants to Scotland of SAsian origin were Sikhs (due to the Army regiments) and Gujuratis via South Africa.  By early 90s,

Punjabi/Urdu combo became the dominant linguistic sub-group within the SAsian context.

The Haggis influence is via Jamaica and the Carribean. I do  remember having haggis curry near Univ of Edinburgh (this was really in the '80s), BUT NO CURRY IN HAGGIS in either Jamaica or Trinidad (the cricket playing carribean Islands ).

It is my understanding, from second-hand info, that confluence of Bangladeshis,SriLanka (tamils) have added an interesting mix to the cuisines of south asia.

[Suvir Saran]

Anil where do you live?  In the US?  UK?  Just wondering.. and you do not need to answer if you do not want to. Thanks for your post.  Living in NYC and being from the Subcontinent helps me better understand the evolution of the foods.  Since I know like you know about Scotland how the cuisine has grown with the patterns of immigrants from that part.

[yvonne johnson]

Anil, Interesting what you say about Sikhs. I do not remember them being the immigrant group that was associated with Indian restaurants opening up in the 1970s north of the border, though.

Haggis is Caribbean in origin? I'd be quite delighted if it were. Do you have a source for this? I was led to believe it was possibly Scandinavian.

[anil]

Anil, Interesting what you say about Sikhs. I do not remember them being the immigrant group that was associated with Indian restaurants opening up in the 1970s north of the border, though.

Haggis is Caribbean in origin? I'd be quite delighted if it were. Do you have a source for this? I was led to believe it was possibly Scandinavian.

No, I did not say about Sikhs opening restaurant in Edinburgh, or Scotland, I was responding to Suvir's queries about immigrants.

Haggis maybe swedish in origin, I'm just commenting on what I've experienced here in the Carribean    I seez it - I eats it - I don't even know how one cooks it.

[anil]

Anil where do you live?  In the US?  UK?  Just wondering.. and you do not need to answer if you do not want to. Thanks for your post.  Living in NYC and being from the Subcontinent helps me better understand the evolution of the foods.  Since I know like you know about Scotland how the cuisine has grown with the patterns of immigrants from that part.

Suvir, Obviously in NYC. Not UK :) You probably could note the lack of comments on my part in the UK forum.

My trips to UK are really short -- an extended weekend, with many a meal as fillers or at people's homes.

I travel more than I care to admit, if I did someone would probably force me to join FF Anonymous  

As to Scotland, and Univ environments, well.... I'm academically affliated to Univs.

[A Scottish Chef]

There are no features of Indian food that are particular to Scotland and I would imagine( correct me if I'm wrong) that most 'Indian' restaurants serve up bog standard curry house slop for the post pub 10 pints of lager brigade.

How wrong can one Angerlander be? Scotland is awash with class A Indian restaurants. None more famous than the fantastic Cafe India in Glasgow. Creme de la Creme has the distinction of being Europes largest Indian restaurant and I'm of the opinion that no restaurent could be this successful, on such a grand scale, if it seved up bog standard slop. On the occasions I have been to either the food has been fabulous.

I'm going to feast myself at the highly rated Mother India this wednesday and I expect nothing less than a sensational dining experience. I'll be making a point of asking to talk with the Chefs and offer them a chance to reject your assertion that they offer nothing particular to Scotland.

I'm betting that the first known/recorded curry dish in Britain from 1791 is pretty particular to Scotland.