The East Coast Olive Conspiracy

[alacarte]

The East Coast Olive Conspiracy

The Morning News.org explains why black olives come in cans (and on NY pizza) and green olives come in jars. Well, actually, eG's own Fat Guy explains why.

[Busboy]

"Clearly, Mr. Shaw and Mr. Bruni are in cahoots here...."

Does this mean that this discussion is just the smokescreen for the creation of a vast and powerful NY-based food criticism alliance?

Edited January 24, 2005 by Busboy (log)

[Jason Perlow]

I'm so glad to hear that Steven's expertise is being called on for things that really matter.

[Bux]

Surely I'm not the only person who's seen black olives in jars. I have also seen some rather dark olives at the mill ready to be pressed for oil. It's not been my opinion that olives slated to be pressed for oil are cooked.

Black olives have always been referred to as ripe olives. I've never heard of them as being cooked. It appears that many olives are picked green -- green as in unripe -- while others seem to be allowed to ripen.

OLIVE Fruit Facts

"Harvest: Olive fruits that are to be processed as green olives are picked while they are still green but have reached full size. . . . Both green-cured and ripe-cured olives are popular as a relish or snack. For California canned commercial olives, black olives are identical to green olives. The black color is obtained by exposure to air after lye extraction and has nothing to do with ripeness.

. . . .

Ascolano

Very large, ellipsoidal fruit. Skin color very light even when ripe, pit very small.

. . . .

Manzanillo

Large, rounded-oval fruit. Skin brilliant purple, changing to deep blue-black when mature.

. . . .

Mission

Medium-sized, oval fruit. Skin deep purple changing to jet-black when ripe.

. . . .

Picholine

Small, elongated fruit. Skin light green, changing to wine red, then red-black when ripe."

None of this explains why canned black olives from California are among the world's most tasteless and useless fruits.

[srhcb]

the world's most tasteless and useless fruits.

←

Thanks for the straight line, but I ain't gonna touch it.

SB (uses black and green interchangably here in the Midwest)

[menton1]

None of this explains why canned black olives from California are among the world's most tasteless and useless fruits.

I don't know how "useful" any fruit is, but I do disagree about the taste. These black olives have quite a nice, subtle taste. They are very interesting in salads, on pizza, and sandwiches. Most cured olives have a much stronger flavor, but these mild black olives are quite nice for a change, IMHO.

[ludja]

I grew up knowing only the (to me) worse than tasteless canned black olives (as part of antipasti platters or pizzas) back in the NorthEast of (?mostly) yesteryear.

Per the linked article, good olives are of course more widely available all over the country now, but a taste revelation to me has been good green olives on pizza. I've had plenty of good black olives since even in the similar context of pissaldiere. But never before good green olives on pizza.

I first tasted this at (ironically) Amici's East Coast Pizzeria (Mountain View, CA). They are absolutely great with pepperoni or Italian sausage. The briny sharpness is just great with the fatty meat. I make pizzas like this at home all the time now!

Edited January 27, 2005 by ludja (log)

[Jim Dixon]

Bux,

Thanks for taking the Fat Guy to olive school. You're correct in pointing out that green olives are green because they're not ripe. The Kalamatas mentioned are ripe and illustrate just one of the colors (purple, in this case) of ripe olives.

None of this explains why canned black olives from California are among the world's most tasteless and useless fruits.

The canned black olive results from a process that is unique to California's olive industry. Green olives are processed in solution of ferrous gluconate that oxidizes them and turns them black. They're similar to maraschino cherries in that the original fruit loses its identity and becomes a vehicle for the added flavoring.

Jim

[maggiethecat]

I don't know how "useful" any fruit is, but I do disagree about the taste.  These black olives have quite a nice, subtle taste. 

←

I agree---canned black olives may not be the best of show, but they are not tasteless ---there's an earthy flavor and texture I enjoy on all relish-platter holidays. Plus, the kiddies would be even crankier at the kid's table if they couldn't sport an olive on every finger.

[Fat Guy]

Anything in a can has been cooked. That's how you can stuff. Canned black olives are cooked.

I was asked a specific question about jarred green versus canned black olives in the specific context of New York pizzerias. My answer was:

“Olives don’t come to us in edible form straight from the tree. They have to be processed. Black and green olives (which can be the same olives—the color is how they end up, not necessarily how they grow) are processed differently. Green olives are for the most part intended to be eaten raw. They are cured not cooked. This is, I believe, why they don’t typically appear on pizzas. Canned black olives are literally cooked, like most anything else in a can. If you canned green olives, it would cook them, and that’s not what you want for a cured olive meant to be eaten raw. If you tried to cook black olives in jars (the processing is done in the actual vessel in which the olives are sold), you’d break a lot of jars.”

Here's a reference confirming most of my factual statements in context. I assure you I also held forth on why canned black olives suck and why I only buy olives from the bins at Fairway, etc. The quotes used were the ones on the narrower question.

[JAZ]

Well, I've had ripe green olives in cans. Lots of times. Where do they fit in?

[Fat Guy]

Usually on the second shelf from the bottom.

[Bux]

My first point was that the same olive may be picked green (green) or ripe (black) from the tree. It's possible that a green olive will turn black if cooked at high enough heat, but that's not how ripe olives get black. For the most part they grow black on the tree. I'm sorry, but a representative from a large West Coast olive processing house wouldn't be my source of information on olives anymore than a large commerical American dairy corporation would not be my source for cheese information.

The Cincinnati Enquirer not only asked the wrong person, but I suspect the wrong question, albeit one that played into the hands of Bell Carter Foods who apparently cooks their black olives in the can and packs their green olives in jars and brine. The Bell Carter answer is about what they do, but misleading in terms of what you'll find in Fairway, where I'll wager none of the black olives sold in bulk are cooked.

Bell Carter pasteurizes green olives and cooks black olives. Whole foods says they sell mostly unpasteurized olives because "Pasteurization is harmful to the flavor, color and even texture of the olive." Cooking the olive is even worse. Canned ripe California olives don't have a delicate flavor as much as they have what remains after the flavor is cooked out, but it was as rude for me to imply it was not a refined and acquired taste just as much as it would be to imply Epoisses was better than Velveeta. The Whole Foods site has some clear concise information on curing and processing olives and on the color.

Outside of California, we have this interesting information from Zeea, Inc. "For packaging and shipping, Spanish cultivators usually pack olives in pasteurized cans or tins. Moroccans are known for using vacuumed packing methods. Greek manufacturers, once again abiding by ancient traditions, always pack processed olives in traditional plastic pails." This may only apply to their suppliers however.

Here's a site with green olives for sale in cans and black olives in jars.

[menton1]

In Zabar's (New York) they carry bulk Cerignola olives that come in black, green, and even a red variety. These are very mild, and probably a better choice than the canned, if and when one can get to Zabar's.

Would these green and red Cerignola varieties also be picked ripe?

[NulloModo]

I love both green and black olives, but have never had, or even thought about, green olives on a pizza. Now, that isn't to say I wouldn't try it, I could imagine it being very tasty, but black olives are always a nice option too. The sweetness of black olives matches really well with the saltiness and greasiness of other pizza toppings, one would have to have some other very stout toppings to match up to green olive.

[Bux]

In Zabar's (New York) they carry bulk Cerignola olives that come in black, green, and even a red variety.  These are very mild, and probably a better choice than the canned, if and when one can get to Zabar's. 

Would these green and red Cerignola varieties also be picked ripe?

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Cerignola olives are so bright in color that I've always assumed they were dyed. I'm told they are not, but it's hard to accept. I don't know that I've had an authoritative opinion on that. If the colors are natural, the green are picked unripe, the black are picked ripe and the red ones would have been picked somewhere in between. Perhaps there is something about the way they are cured that retains, or heightens the color. A quick search on the net wasn't productive.

Here, you can order green cerignola olives in a six pound can. You can also get six pound cans of green picoline olives.

For those who are unfamiliar with cerignola olives, you can find a relatively good picture of all three cerignola olives here.

[srhcb]

I always feel guilty not using the liquid olives come packed in.

Any ideas?

[Dr. Funk]

I always feel guilty not using the liquid olives come packed in.

Any ideas?

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Pour it out - it has no value - but then again neither do California olives other than entertainment value. 'fess up - after eating a Kalamata olive, do the black pearls in a can do anything for you?

[Bux]

I always feel guilty not using the liquid olives come packed in.

Any ideas?

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I often find uses for the container in which the olives come, but I can't imagine a use for the liquid.

[Fat Guy]

Reading this discussion is sort of like watching while one person asks "Why does McDonald's put Special Sauce on the Big Mac but ketchup on the Quarter Pounder?" and everybody else responds "Special Sauce sucks!" It's true. Special Sauce sucks. Nonetheless, some people -- say, subscribers to McDonald's Magazine -- might want to know why they put it on the Big Mac but not on the Quarter Pounder.

[Jason Perlow]

Steven, don't you know? The Quarter Pounder's primary flavor elements come from Ketchup and Mustard, combining with the greasiness of the patty and the pickles and cheese. Its a simple, Old School flavor profile. Its just a bigger version of their standard cheeseburger, whereas the Big Mac is New School. Or old New School.

[...tm...]

Greek manufacturers, once again abiding by ancient traditions, always pack processed olives in traditional plastic pails.

Those Ancient Greeks really were ahead of their time. quite a civilization they had going on there.

And now I know why I thought I hated olives until I went to Italy. Those stupid Californian imitation lye air exposed green "black" olives are clearly an inferior product. Perhaps the answer to the pizza riddle is that Californians recognize this fact, but continue to unload their product on outsiders.

And how did a media gadfly manage to hit on the correct answer while two renowned experts got stuck in the details?

But I have another theory in answer to your question, Katie J. Why do black olives come in tin cans and green olives come in glass jars? Because you’re poor, Katie. Any edible and decent olive, no matter what its color, most certainly does not come in a tin can.