A Conversation with Mel Knox

[Rebel Rose]

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Mel Knox, barrel broker extraordinaire. Mel’s experience in the cooperage industry is widely acknowledged and respected. Mel is also frequently asked to speak and give seminars on the topic of oak, as he has a rare talent for making a slide show of tree cross-sections into a hilarious adventure. Pour yourself a glass of wine, pull up a comfortable chair, and join us for this week’s featured Conversation.

Our Conversation will run Monday through Friday, January 17-21, but please feel free to begin posting questions now. You may also refer to our previous thread, Knox on Wood for ideas.

“I was born in a log cabin made of oak from the Bertranges and Troncais forests, and I learned to read and write by carving my name on oak trees.

I have been involved in various aspects of the wine business since the early 1970s, as it seemed like a better idea than going to law school. In 1980 I started to sell barrels with Becky Wasserman and now I represent three cooperages: Francois Freres, Tonnellerie Taransaud, and Francois Freres Hungary.

I am also involved with making wine with various partners. The primary rule is that my partner is as crazy as I am:

I produce ‘Ici La Bas’ with Jim Clendenen and the Francois family-- pinot noir and chardonnay from vineyards in Oregon and in the Anderson Valley.

Jim Moore and I make ‘L'Uvaggio di Giacomo’ from grapes native to Italy: arneis, barbera, nebbiolo, and sangiovese. Next year: vermentino.”

--Mel Knox

[winesonoma]

What do you think about the new square barrels from Switzerland? http://www.beveragedaily.com/news/news-NG....e-barrels-could

Edited January 15, 2005 by winesonoma (log)

[Coop]

Mel, thank you for this. Can you tell us what role you think toasting has on barrels? Is it done to all barrels for wine aging?

[Brad Ballinger]

Thanks for contributing, Mel.

My question has to do with new v. old/used barrels. What trends, if any, are you seeing regarding increased or decreased demand for either? And how old can large oak barrels (botti) be before they no longer aid in the fermentation or aging of the wine, and may actually impart adverse elements into the wine?

[Andre]

Greetings Mel,

I was wondering wether you have performed, or know of, experiments considering the health aspects of oak in general and taosting oak in particular, on oak aged / flavoured wine consumers.

Thanks

[jrufusj]

Mel:

Thanks for joining us.

As you are making pinot noir and chardonnay (with none other than Jim Clendenon), I have a few questions related to those.

Particularly with regard to pinot noir, what relationships have you found between maceration methods, temperatures, time, etc., and the ability to integrate oak? New style versus old style is a gross overgeneralization, but have you found that cold soak, whole cluster maceration, etc. have hurt the ability of wines to integrate new oak as they age?

In a similar vein, what relationship have you found between ripeness levels and oak integration. It is clear that Leroy-style ripeness lessens the apparent level of new oak in young wines. Her wines also seem to have no problem integrating over time. Taking that to another level, what about the Loring or Marcassin style wines? I've not tasted these and am curious how you think the ripeness will play out with the new oak over time.

Finally, if I can be so rude as to ask a third question, can you describe the philosophy and vineyard management and winemaking for your venture with Clendenon? ABC-styled or something different? I've not seen your wines here in Tokyo. Are the production levels high enough to warrant broad distribution? Any chance I'll see them?

Thanks for your time and thoughts,

Jim

[KatieLoeb]

Mel:

Thanks so much for joining us. Having the opportunity to pick a cooper's brain doesn't come along every day.

What are your thoughts on "shortcuts" to oak influence in wine? Are there any methods that are perhaps "preferable" to others? Are suspended oak staves somehow superior to oak chips or strained out pencil shavings? I often look at the more inexpensive wines, and knowing what the cost of good cooperage is these days, simply know they've cut corners in production because they couldn't possibly offer the wine at that price if it had ever seen a real barrel, no less one of decent quality. Your thoughts on this phenomenon would be most educational.

My thanks again for your time in speaking with us here at eGullet.

[Mel Knox]

Greetings Mel,

I was wondering wether you have performed, or know of, experiments considering the health aspects of oak in general and taosting oak in particular, on oak aged / flavoured wine consumers.

Thanks

←

About twenty years ago there was a scare having to do with barbequing meat, so Terry Leighton, who is both a professor of microbiology at UC Berkeley and a winery owner/operator conducted some experiments.

He found no problems.

It reminded me of when the feds pulled vodka in plastic bottles off the market as they were worried about carcinogens. One would have had to drink two quarts of vodka aged ten years in plastic bottle a day for twenty years to get anywhere near having a problem with cancer. In the meantime...

[Mel Knox]

Mel, thank you for this. Can you tell us what role you think toasting has on barrels? Is it done to all barrels for wine aging?

←

Coop: one of my favorite moments in baseball was at Candlestick in 1990 when Rob Dibble struck out Will Clark on a 100+ fastball in the bottom of the tenth. Kevin Mitchell then connected on a similar pitch. Sent the ball into orbit. Half a second after the ball left Kevin's bat everyone got up, totally stunned by the sound of the ball bouncing around 400+ ft away, and left, inc the Reds.

As far as toasting is concerned, maybe Kevin's bat was toasted.

Let's back up a moment and point out that to shape straight boards into curved staves the wood is heated. It can be heated with fire, natural gas, boiling water, etc.

Most cooperages leave the barrels on the fire after the shaping is done. The result is varying levels of 'toastiness'.

The resulting impact on wine varies acc to the time the wood was air dried prior to being turned into barrels. Assuming the wood has been air dried the same period

we might say that

a)heavy toast gives the wine aromas of cooked caramel, grilled coffee, torrefaction notes, etc

b)medium toast: vanillin, coffee, licorice, toasted bread

c)light toast: more dusty, aggressively woody, perhaps more fruit showing

The longer the wood is air dried the more subtle the flavors. When wood is air dried for a short period of time then there are usually lots of aggressive tannins and obvious toastiness.

When wine is aged in barrel, then the toast acts as a buffer between the wood and the alcohol, which is a solvent. But it also acts as a flavor.

To be judged properly the wine must spend at least six months in the same barrel.

Some wineries like untoasted barrels but not many. Most get a toast level of medium, medium plus or heavy.

I hope this helps.

[Mel Knox]

What do you think about the new square barrels from Switzerland?  http://www.beveragedaily.com/news/news-NG....e-barrels-could

←

About ten yerars ago Jean Francois made square barrels for the Hospices de Beaune. The winemaker said he did not want the wine to 'turn', ie become volatile.

Torres experimented with square barrels as well. Most folks would call them boxes.

I have no great thoughts on the subject.

[Mel Knox]

Mel:

Thanks so much for joining us. Having the opportunity to pick a cooper's brain doesn't come along every day. 

What are your thoughts on "shortcuts" to oak influence in wine?  Are there any methods that are perhaps "preferable" to others?  Are suspended oak staves somehow superior to oak chips or strained out pencil shavings?  I often look at the more inexpensive wines, and knowing what the cost of good cooperage is these days, simply know they've cut corners in production because they couldn't possibly offer the wine at that price if it had ever seen a real barrel, no less one of decent quality.  Your thoughts on this phenomenon would be most educational.

My thanks again for your time in speaking with us here at eGullet.

←

Katie: the question of guercus fragmentus has always been with us.

It is expensive to buy the barrels and it is expensive to warehouse them, to fill them, to top them etc.

People want the taste of oak but not the price tag.

Oak alternates include:

chips, balls, squares etc of oak used in fermentation

inner stave...not a religion for coopers but a process whereby barrels are renewed. The head is removed and a plastic rack is placed inside the barrel. Into the rack can go little staves.

Plank in a tank: kind of a giant version of inner stave. Sometimes oxygen is bubbled in to mimic the oxygenation a barrel gets.

Naturally I think these systems are the devil's handiwork, unless I am selling them.

[jbonne]

a great conversation! despite winemakers' proclamations about more oak, less oak, &c., i imagine Mel is the man who probably truly knows what's going on with barrel use in our fair land.

on that point: how much, by percent, do you see usage of the various toast levels? up here in fair WA, i see a ton of MT+ and not much else. but i wonder whether there's some more lightly toasted barrels being hidden away where the oak fiends can't see.

also (and my apologies for having not chatted with you and Jim Clendenon when i wrote about multistate winemaking), can you tell us a bit about where you're sourcing your Oregon grapes for Ici/La Bas? and how would you describe the terroir characteristics of OR versus the Anderson Valley? are there qualities in each batch of fruit that really speak to you?

[Rebel Rose]

Mel, thank you for joining us!

I am often asked about the difference between French and American oak. (I usually respond that if you could choose between a French brunette and an American blonde, why not have both?) But even the various French-coopered barrels have distinct characters.

Can you tell us about the different characteristics / flavors from the various cooperages you represent?

[Mel Knox]

Thanks for contributing, Mel.

My question has to do with new v. old/used barrels.  What trends, if any, are you seeing regarding increased or decreased demand for either?  And how old can large oak barrels (botti) be before they no longer aid in the fermentation or aging of the wine, and may actually impart adverse elements into the wine?

←

One of the more self serving bits of research was printed in Wine Magazine of England about ten years ago. Seguin Moreau's researchers had determined that barrels got counterproductive after five years of use.

This may be true but I was amazed that the normally cynical Brits published this w/o comment.

With barrels getting more and more expensive winemakers will be looking at the qualities of second and third use barrels. Somewhere around 4/5 yrs of age the barrel becomes neutral. If you look at the website www.winerysite.com, you can see what happens to the price of barrels as they age.

I have customers using barrels that are over fifteen years old. No flavor is being imparted to the wine. Are they bad for the wine?? Only if poorly maintained, I think.

Now, if you are talking about larger containers, ovals, fermentation tanks, etc., that's a different story. The winemaker probably does not want any flavor to come out of the tanks. In Alsace the insides are crusted wth tartrates.

[Mel Knox]

a great conversation! despite winemakers' proclamations about more oak, less oak, &c., i imagine Mel is the man who probably truly knows what's going on with barrel use in our fair land.

on that point: how much, by percent, do you see usage of the various toast levels?  up here in fair WA, i see a ton of MT+ and not much else. but i wonder whether there's some more lightly toasted barrels being hidden away where the oak fiends can't see.

also (and my apologies for having not chatted with you and Jim Clendenon when i wrote about multistate winemaking), can you tell us a bit about where you're sourcing your Oregon grapes for Ici/La Bas? and how would you describe the terroir characteristics of OR versus the Anderson Valley? are there qualities in each batch of fruit that really speak to you?

←

Jim Clendenen and I have purchased grapes from Montinore and White Rose, both of which have chosen to make more wine and sell fewer grapes. Right now we are working with the Elke family in Boonville. We bought chardonnay grapes from the Denisons but this year all they had was two bins. We have really become enamored of the Anderson Valley, which is like the best of Oregon and California:

a)cool climate

b)but south of september/october storms that can screw things up.

What I like about both regions is that one gets flavor ripe grapes at relatively low sugars. The low alcohol levels mean that less oak is extracted from the barrel...perhaps more of the good stuff and less of the bad.

When you see how many variations there are between vineyards 'terroir' becomes a difficult concept to discuss.

Re toasting in Washington state: You might look at my note as to how toasting and air drying are linked. I have concentrated on the Evergreen state the past few years. I think wineries are responding well to the well seasoned barrels I offer. The toasting comes across as more subtle due to the longer air drying.

Another issue is when the barrel is filled. One winery got med toast barrels in March and did not like the results. If you put 'Clean' wine in new barrels the oak can be a bit overwhelming. This year they got med plus barrels in January.

[Mel Knox]

Mel, thank you for joining us!

I am often asked about the difference between French and American oak.  (I usually respond that if you could choose between a French brunette and an American blonde, why not have both?)  But even the various French-coopered barrels have distinct characters.

Can you tell us about the different characteristics / flavors from the various cooperages you represent?

←

Describing flavors is one of those writing exercises that tests one's abilities.

The usual response is to say that French/European oak is more subtle and American oak is more vanillin, in your face. This is because of species differences rather than the presence of foie gras round the table in St Romain and BBQ ribs in Missouri.

But air drying makes a big difference. Until 15 yrs ago most american oak was kiln dried. The results with air dried american oak are much closer to french oak than to traditional american kiln dried.

Here is one way to see the differences between French and American oak is to compare Bourbon and Cognac. The Bourbon is aged in 100 per cent new American oak and the Cognac is aged in french oak of various ages.

Or try young zins from Scherrer zinfandel (pretty much all french) and Ridge, pretty much all American.

I represent three cooperages:

Taransaud: all the wood is certified air dried twelve months for every 100 mm of stave thickness. This seasoning is especially important for wines kept in barrel longer than 12 months. I always say why hire a vineyard manager when you are going to use barrels that just sit on the wine?? Taransaud bbls support the wine, but do not dominate it.

Francois Freres: Both two and three year air dry are available. This cooperage is renowned for a barrel that is both toasty and elegant at the same time.

Francois Hungary: In 1999 the Francois' bought half of a cooperage and stave mill in Hungary from a family that escaped state-sponsored terrorism in 1956 and returned when the Iron Curtain fell. The Molnars were on the right path and the help the Francois' have provided have speeded up the learning curve.

As more and more properly seasoned oak is available, the results get better and better.

[Mel Knox]

Mel:

Thanks for joining us. 

As you are making pinot noir and chardonnay (with none other than Jim Clendenon), I have a few questions related to those. 

Particularly with regard to pinot noir, what relationships have you found between maceration methods, temperatures, time, etc., and the ability to integrate oak?  New style versus old style is a gross overgeneralization, but have you found that cold soak, whole cluster maceration, etc. have hurt the ability of wines to integrate new oak as they age? 

In a similar vein, what relationship have you found between ripeness levels and oak integration.  It is clear that Leroy-style ripeness lessens the apparent level of new oak in young wines.  Her wines also seem to have no problem integrating over time.  Taking that to another level, what about the Loring or Marcassin style wines?  I've not tasted these and am curious how you think the ripeness will play out with the new oak over time.

Finally, if I can be so rude as to ask a third question, can you describe the philosophy and vineyard management and winemaking for your venture with Clendenon?  ABC-styled or something different?  I've not seen your wines here in Tokyo.  Are the production levels high enough to warrant broad distribution?  Any chance I'll see them?

Thanks for your time and thoughts,

Jim

←

←

←

Jim:

Describing Jim Clendenen is even harder than describing french and American oak.

Jim and I share a philosphy that wine should be drunk with a meal, but should not replace it. We try to make wines that combine elegance and power, but not one at the expense of the other. Finally, we make wines that improve in the bottle.

As far as oak integration is concerned, I think there are several factors:

a)air drying...we use 3 yr air dry

b)alcohol and acid levels of wine...we don't wait for 16% potential before picking. We pick around 13% alc potential and usually have good acids. One sees a lot of wines on the market with 15.5%/16.5% alc...This is 20% higher than our efforts.

Alcohol is a solvent and pulls oak out of the barrel. The lower alcohols and higher acids emphasize the tannins, which is what you see in Burgundy.

c)Time...Both in barrel and in bottle there are times when the oak dominates. After several years in bottle the oak will subside (assuming there is something in the wine besides oak!) and the fruit etc will come out. If you taste Leroy or DRC wines out of barrel, you won't miss the oak.

Our fermentation techniques are nothing special. We don t do experiments since we only make 1000 cs per year. I can't answer yr questions re cold maceration etc with any data. However, I think the crucial issues are the ones I have discussed.

Marcassin and Loring: Every time the Francois' taste Marcassin wines out of barrel they shout that Helen and John are geniuses. When they taste ici La Bas out of barrel they look at Jim and me and wonder how they got into business making wine with us. Later, when they drink the wine out of bottle with their buddies

in St Romain, they delight in serving the wine blind and making everybody guess what it was. One time several famous winemakers got into an argument over whether our 99 chard was puligny or chassagne...I enjoyed that.

I think it is fair to say that Helen and John have different philosophies from ours except that we all want to make wines that astonish.

The wines are occasionally available in Japan. Ditto England, france, Switzerland and Germany. England (Berry Brothers Rudd) is one of our best accounts anywhere.

Edited January 17, 2005 by Mel Knox (log)

[Rebel Rose]

Mel, can you tell us a little bit about the different French oak forests, what they each contribute, and how they are managed?

[Mel Knox]

Mel, can you tell us a little bit about the different French oak forests, what they each contribute, and how they are managed?

←

French forests have been managed for nearly ten centuries. For many years the goal was to produce a everything from firewood to wood for the French navy. As the navy has switched to steel and people use gas and heating oil to warm their homes, management strategy has changed.

Every September the French forestry office, the ONF, holds auctions. Wood brokers, mill operator and coopers bid on various lots of trees still standing in the forests. The forests are managed for a profit and for the common good. Right now for every board foot of oak harvested in a year, three grow.

Recently I attended an event in the Troncais forest. During the reign of Louis XIV the minister Colbert had this forest planted for the French navy. Under the eyes of a direct descendant of Colbert (there was quite a family resemblance,it was quite amazing) the last trees planted centuries ago were cut down.

Forests in the west of France, around the city of Limoges, are called Limousin. These forests are planted mostly with quercus robur, whose wood tends to be wide grained. This is the classic oak tree with the wide crown. This wood is usually used for Cognac. As it is higher in tannins than other oaks, the wood must be dried longer or it tastes astringent.

Forests in the east of France, in the Vosges Mountains, are oak forests. These woods have been used for barrels since the early 80s.

Coopers say that these oaks impart their tannins quickly but that at the end of six months the results are fairly similar to Nevers and Allier.

Center of France/Nevers: To the south, west and southeast of Paris are some very important forest regions:

Nevers/Nievre: Between the town of Nevers and the Cote d Or are many important forests, such as Bertranges.

Allier: forests such as St palais, Troncais, Allogny.

Sarthe (near Le Mans): Jupilles

near paris: Fontainebleau, HQ of the ONF...many trees were knocked down during the windstorms of 1999/2000...

These forests tend towards tight grained and are perhaps the 'sweetest' of all the forests. Nevers could be said to have a little more 'structure' ie more tannic than Allier.

[Echezeaux]

Mel...

How do new oak barrels affect the numerical scores for various wines?

What do you think about the "work" (if you want to call it that) of various wine critics? Do the critics have an affect/effect on barrel sales, do you think?

What size straight jacket does Mr. Clendenen wear, by the way?

Thanks!

[Mel Knox]

Mel...

How do new oak barrels affect the numerical scores for various wines? 

What do you think about the "work" (if you want to call it that) of various wine critics?  Do the critics have an affect/effect on barrel sales, do you think?

What size straight jacket does Mr. Clendenen wear, by the way?

Thanks!

←

No wood

No Good!

First of all, Clendenen has his straight jackets custom made in Thailand so only his tailor knows for sure.

Second, Parker and Tanzer have both mentioned Taransaud and Francois Freres in their reviews and it has n' t hurt a bit. When Parker first raved about some wines made in these bbls Francois was well known but Taransaud was not. I went from selling all the barrels in my allocation to having a waiting list.

Third, I think thast when one tastes 200 wines a day, wines that are bitter, excessively tannic, etc get bad scores and wines that have the rich sweet flavor of properly seasoned oak are bound to do better. So, I think it is the question of using the right barrels (ie mine) and not bad ones, ie my competitors'.

[Jason Perlow]

Greetings Mel, and welcome to the site.

As many people who know my personal drinking habits, I hate Chardonnay, Merlot, and any over-oaked California or French wine. I happen to think that the overpowering taste of new oak in most mass produced California wines -- and even some of the most expensive ones -- basically amounts to a net negative in any meal in which wine is an accompaniment. I drink wines with food, and not by themselves, so I tend toward winemakers that use older oak barrels or even stainless steel -- my wines of preference with the type of cuisine I usually eat are of the Germanic type (Riesling, Pinot Gris, Gewurtz, etc) and other types of Reds that arent as oak heavy such as Pinot Noir and Sangiovese. That being said, I'm a heavy brandy and rum drinker, and in those spirits, I find oak to be a positive flavor element, if not overdone.

What are your feelings towards the levels of extremeness in which oak is used in winemaking in the industry? Obviously, as a coopersmith and barrel maker, this must be a pretty sensitive issue to you.

[Mel Knox]

Greetings Mel, and welcome to the site.

As many people who know my personal drinking habits, I hate Chardonnay, Merlot, and any over-oaked California or French wine. I happen to think that the overpowering taste of new oak in most mass produced California wines -- and even some of the most expensive ones -- basically amounts to a net negative in any meal in which wine is an accompaniment. I drink wines with food, and not by themselves, so I tend toward winemakers that use older oak barrels or even stainless steel -- my wines of preference with the type of cuisine I usually eat are of the Germanic type (Riesling, Pinot Gris, Gewurtz, etc) and other types of Reds that arent as oak heavy such as Pinot Noir and Sangiovese. That being said, I'm a heavy brandy and rum drinker, and in those spirits, I find oak to be a positive flavor element, if not overdone.

What are your feelings towards the levels of extremeness in which oak is used in winemaking in the industry? Obviously, as a coopersmith and barrel maker, this must be a pretty sensitive issue to you.

←

I think it is easier to ask questions than answer them. But I will try to do my part.

First, maybe you should try our L Uvaggio di Giacomo Arneis...fermented in older barrels so as to preserve the fruit and complexity of the wine. Or try our Barberas and Nebbiolos, aged in oak but not dominated by it. Our Sangiovese in aged in 400 liter (105 gallon) puncheons made of tight grained 3 yr air dried center of france oak, about 20% new every year.

Our first wine was a 97 Barbera, 16% alc with 3 grams of rs..it sold out instantly.

We have tried to make wines in a more balanced manner, but some days I am ready to sell out and go for the gold!

I see so many wines where the wood sits on the wine. We try to provide barrels that allow the wine to speak.

With Ici La bas we make white wines that are 100% new oak and when they are young they are a little much. But we feel our wines have the structure to age, like white Burgundies can. Our 98s and 99 are tasting great now. These wines have been praised in England and in France whereas they hardly drew a notice here.

Since we don t make much wine (600 cs red, 200 cs white) we can afford to wait

until the wine is half way drinkable before it is released. We have just released our 2001 pinots and our 2002 chardonnays.

About every six months some writers tosses off a column about how he hates oaky wines and then lists ten wines he really likes. Invariably these are wines made in my barrels. This leads me to believe the writer likes good wood, properly used.

When I first got into the wine business, a good wine shop had a row or two of Bordeaux, a row or two of Burgundy, some Rhones, some Loire wine, Alsace and a row or two of german wines, plus California and Italy. We sold German wines like there was no tomorrow.

For a while there it seemed like people were going from 24 flavors to 2...maybe we are going back to 24. Diversity is what makes wine fun.

About high alcohol high extract wines are concerned: when drinking these with a meal they can be too much, but then 200 yrs ago people drank Madeira all day long so let's not get too hoity toity. One hundred years ago sauternes was the rage. A guy in my freshman dorm (one of the weirdos who studied)became a history professor and wrote a book called the Alcoholic Republic. Evidently people (man woman and child)averaged about a quart of applejack per day in the USA of 1800.

A friend of mine pointed out to me that a lot of people drink these powerful industrial strength elixirs in lieu of cocktails.

About Cognac, etc: if you age Bourbon in French barrels it tastes like Cognac but Cognac aged in American oak bbls tastes like Bourbon.

In all our winemaking ventures we emphasize the compatability with fine dining.

What people do with the barrels I sell them is their own concern, as long as the check clears the bank! Some of them, having decided to go for the gold, may put their amps on 11.

[Andre]

Facinating Mel, thanks.

Are there any recommendations of specific oak or oak condition to specific grape veriety or style ?

When it comes to assemblage - are ther any recommended marriages?

[Mel Knox]

Facinating Mel, thanks.

Are there any recommendations of specific oak or oak condition to specific grape veriety or style ?

When it comes to assemblage - are ther any recommended marriages?

←

Most winemakers are happy when we provide good consistent products and ask us to leave the winemaking to them. But that does not stop us from mouthing off on the subject::

Some random thoughts:

1. People drink merlot because it is smooth. If they want to age a wine, they buy cabernet. Therefore I think wellseasoned, tight grained wood is really important for merlot. Otherwise the wine can be rough. It is no accident that Taransaud sells lots of barrels to people who grow Merlot, whether in Pomerol/St Emilion or in California.

2. In the mid 90s Taransaud had lots of well seasoned wide grained staves with the length for wine barrels. Practical experiments showed that these barrels worked well with:

cool climate chardonnay...i also make a chardonnay with Eric Hamacher in oregon. It's called 'Cuvee Forets Diverses' because the staves come from all over France

spicy reds: Barbera, Zinfandel, Syrah

Mountain Cabernet...the sweet vanillins go well with robust reds...

Long seasoning is really important for wide grained staves. Otherwise the wine gets astringent.

3. For Pinot Noir, one must consider the wine and the aging regimen. For great grand cru Burgundies 100% new oak and lots of time in barrel is the order of the day. This means 3 yr air dry, which is something francois Freres does for clients like Drouhin and DRC. But for lighter wines maybe only one third will be new, so the wood is two yr air dry.

4. Both Pinot Noir and Sangiovese are sponges for oak but Sangiovese can reflect the wood awkwardly. We have found that the Italians who use larger containers

knew what they were doing. We use 400 Liter bbls and they work very well.

I have to go sell barrels now, back around 530..