Overrated/Underrated

[snausages2000]

What restaurants do you not understand the fuss over?

What restaurants do you think are under-appreciated?

This is more about gut-feeling than reason.

Overrated

Lupa - Honestly, what's the big deal? Lots of high-quality ingredients adding up to bland, unexceptional dishes. Everyone goes on and on about Lupa. It's fine. Pretty good. But not the culinary nirvana it's hyped up to be.

The Spotted Pig - Love the cask ales and the way the place looks, but screw the gnudi. Tasteless and overpriced food.

Korean BBQ - Korean BBQ may be fun for a large group, but it's the most over-priced food in the city. I love Korean food, but I would never order the BBQ.

Coal and Brick Ovens - It's not good just because it has an old oven. I'm talking to you Grimaldi's.

Per Se - I've never been and I'm sure it's the greatest thing ever, but I hate it for being so infallibly awesome.

Underrated

Hasaki - Extremely reliable, no-frills sushi on 9th St. in the East Village. Just as good, in terms of quality, as Blue Ribbon and (sometimes) Jewel Bako.

Grand Sichuan St. Marks - Obviously there's been 1001 posts on this site touting Grand Sichuan's greatness, but it's not enough - the St. Mark's location has been empty and most people not in the EGullet or Chowhound community are still unaware of the genius.

San Loco Taco - Queso Loco Chicken Taco & Guaco Loco Chicken Taco. The Yin and Yang of deliciousness.

Korean Beef Sandwich, Food Cart at Ludlow and Stanton - Go drunk Saturday at midnight and find out for yourself.

Edited September 30, 2004 by snausages2000 (log)

[tommy]

coal and brick ovens need not be old. but they sure do get hot.

Pompano is underrated. or at least under-talked about.

[snausages2000]

Tommy - Interestingly, Pompano is also an underrated fish.

Oh, and I left out Lombardi's pizza. Most overrated in NY. Is that pizza sauce

or Hunt's Catsup?

[Pork Neck]

Why is GS St Mark's so empty! I've been 2-3 times a week since it opened, and its never been more than 50% full....the entire menu is as strong or stronger than any other GS, the service is better, and its BYO right now....brilliance

[Mike Pardus]

I feel that I need to comment on your thoughts of Per Se. I cook and teach cooking for a living, I have done this for over 30 years. In that time I have had 3 meals which stand out as "special"- meaning that the details will remain with me forever and I will use the experience as a measure for other dining experiences and for my own cooking. One of these three dinners was at the French Laundry. I have not been to Per Se , but I think it's safe to assume that the experience would be similar.

In trying to explain why it's such a big deal I have found myself using the analogy of Mozart and Salliarie(I know I'm butchering the guys name - can't find my encyclopdia of music history at the moment). Sallierie is the guy who wonders out loud why Mozart's music is SO GREAT and his own is so mediocre. The only explanation he can come up with is that God speaks to Mozart and not to Sallierie. This is how I feel after eating Kellers food. I may as well go out and be a janitor for all the skill I can show relative to Keller. Why is it that God speaks to him and not to me?

Well, the fact is, Keller is THAT good. I can choose to hate him for being something I can only dream of being (pretty petty and lame way to go through life) or I can choose to feel lucky enough to have the experience and the backgrond with which to appreciate it. I might even be smart enough to walk away with a few tid bits of inspiration that will make me a better cook and a better teacher.

I can't think of anyone less deserving of the slander "Over Rated".

What restaurants do you not understand the fuss over?

What restaurants do you think are under-appreciated?

This is more about gut-feeling than reason.

Overrated

Lupa - Honestly, what's the big deal?  Lots of high-quality ingredients adding up to bland, unexceptional dishes.  Everyone goes on and on about Lupa.  It's fine.  Pretty good.  But not the culinary nirvana it's hyped up to be.

The Spotted Pig - Love the cask ales and the way the place looks, but screw the gnudi.  Tasteless and overpriced food.

Korean BBQ - Korean BBQ may be fun for a large group, but it's the most over-priced food in the city.  I love Korean food, but I would never order the BBQ.

Coal and Brick Ovens - It's not good just because it has an old oven.  I'm talking to you Grimaldi's.

Per Se - I've never been and I'm sure it's the greatest thing ever, but I hate it for being so infallibly awesome. 

Underrated

Hasaki - Extremely reliable, no-frills sushi on 9th St. in the East Village.  Just as good, in terms of quality, as Blue Ribbon and (sometimes) Jewel Bako.

Grand Sichuan St. Marks - Obviously there's been 1001 posts on this site touting Grand Sichuan's greatness, but it's not enough - the St. Mark's location has been empty and most people not in the EGullet or Chowhound community are still unaware of the genius.

San Loco Taco - Queso Loco Chicken Taco & Guaco Loco Chicken Taco.  The Yin and Yang of deliciousness.

Korean Beef Sandwich, Food Cart at Ludlow and Stanton - Go drunk Saturday at midnight and find out for yourself.

←

[snausages2000]

I totally relate. I've been a janitor and teaching janitor...ing for 30 years and there's this other janitor that mops with such god given grace that I often think about giving it up and becoming a cook.

Mike, as I said, I've never had Keller's food and I'm sure it's terrific.

It's like my feelings about the Yankees: it's not that they're not the best team,

in fact, I hate them because they ARE the best team.

It's fun to root against the king of the hill.

Now take the sand out of your pants and tell me your underrated and overrated...

[markk]

Lupa - Honestly, what's the big deal?

The starters, for one. They're usually exceptional, and eating them tastes an awful lot like dining in Rome. And the pastas are always exceptional, and then some. Part of it is how they cook the pasta - to an "al dente" perfection not usually achieved in this country, and part of it is how they dress it -to sheer perfection. It's always superlative, sometimes mind-boggling, at least in my opinion. The Amatriciana and the Carbonara are standard-setting dishes, even, or especially, by Italian standards. (This comment from a man who spent eight consecutive summers eating his way through Emilia-Romagna, I might add.) And the daily pasta is never less than spectacular in every regard.

(I usually pig out on the first two courses and order so many of each that I don't make it to the main courses, so I can't really comment on those.)

I'm sorry you don't get this place, but I wanted to defend it with a contrasting point of view. To me, the big deal is that the food is utterly sensational. And, in terms of the people, and the overall vibe, I don't think there's a friendlier or warmer restaurant on the planet. It's one of the places I'm always willing to drive into from New Jersey for, and I'm never disappointed.

[snausages2000]

Mark,

If my remarks about Lupa hit a nerve, get this: I think the most overrated dining destination in the world is Italy. Out of 20 meals there, all of which were heavily researched for supposed quality in advance, only one restaurant was better than decent, and most were poor. In contrast, just so you know I'm not a New Yorkophile, the best meals of my life have been had in Paris, Montreal and Barcelona (and NY). I'm sure I had some bad luck in Italy, and of course it's ridiculous to dismiss an entire country's culinary virtue based on so few meals (this thread was meant to be a bit ridiculous), but meals at Babbo, hell, even Lupa, have blown away anything I had in Italy. The fresh produce and cheese and meat and bread in Italy were exceptional, but as soon they got cooked, they got bad. Greasy, watery, bland.

I'm happy to provoke disagreement, but I was also hoping to inspire contributions to the underrated/overrated list. Let's hear what you got...

[KatieLoeb]

The starters, for one.  They're usually exceptional, and eating them tastes an awful lot like dining in Rome.  And the pastas are always exceptional, and then some.  Part of it is how they cook the pasta - to an "al dente" perfection not usually achieved in this country, and part of it is how they dress it -to sheer perfection.  It's always superlative, sometimes mind-boggling, at least in my opinion.  The Amatriciana and the Carbonara are standard-setting dishes, even, or especially, by Italian standards.  (This comment from a man who spent eight consecutive summers eating his way through Emilia-Romagna, I might add.)  And the daily pasta is never less than spectacular in every regard.

(I usually pig out on the first two courses and order so many of each that I don't make it to the main courses, so I can't really comment on those.)

I'm sorry you don't get this place, but I wanted to defend it with a contrasting point of view.  To me, the big deal is that the food is utterly sensational.  And, in terms of the people, and the overall vibe, I don't think there's a friendlier or warmer restaurant on the planet.  It's one of the places I'm always willing to drive into from New Jersey for, and I'm never disappointed.

←

I have to agree with markk about Lupa, and it's not just the food. The wine list and wine service (comprehensive selection, fair pricing and different portion sizes available) are exceptional and a terrific compliment to the food. The waitstaff is also quite knowlegeable about the dishes and the wine list and can answer any question I've ever asked. And I do try to stump the staff from time to time just to see how they'll handle it and use the anecdote as a training tool for my staff.

There's a reason that Lupa is always packed.

[snausages2000]

The Olive Garden is always packed.

(The wine list at Lupa is great and totally reasonable. Agreed.)

[KatieLoeb]

The Olive Garden is always packed.

(The wine list at Lupa is great and totally reasonable.  Agreed.)

←

And the Olive Garden is packed for a different reason than Lupa is.

[tommy]

I'm happy to provoke disagreement, but I was also hoping to inspire contributions to the underrated/overrated list.  Let's hear what you got...

←

you can't get a "list" without discussion. it should be expected. and since lupa and per se are considered by more than a few to be above-average restaurants, and worthy of accolades, you probably shouldn't be surprised to hear disagreement.

comments like "italy was overrated" seem kinda silly, though.

[Pan]

I've been to Grimaldi's only once so far, but it sure was great! Go near opening time and get a sausage slice. Yum, fennel seeds!

Lombardi's? We agree there.

Grand Sichuan St. Marks? I'm sure glad it's there, but though the Sichuan-style dishes I've had so far are excellent, I have yet to be convinced about the Hunan offerings. Some have been good, others have been salty to the nth degree. But sure, it should be fuller. It may be that many East Villagers are like me and are mostly getting delivery from that location rather than eating in.

Veselka has been overrated for years; so was Kiev. Most any Chinese restaurant on the Upper West Side is overrated, in the sense that people are eating there in large numbers. Yeah Shanghai is probably underrated, in the sense that it's never packed though Joe's Shanghai Pell St. and New Green Bo often are.

Italy as overrated? Are you trolling?

[speegola]

i think craftbar is one of the most under rated restaurants in new york. colicchio does a great job at craftbar.

[Stone]

I think the most overrated dining destination in the world is Italy. 

←

Steve?

[emilymarie]

i think craftbar is one of the most under rated restaurants in new york.  colicchio does a great job at craftbar.

←

I would have to agree. I have had a few very solid meals at craftbar, both capped off with just sensational desserts by Karen DeMasco, or at least that's what the menu said. I've never had a problem just walking in at night after work and geting a table. The deep-fried bay leaves stuffed with sausage are crunchy little bites of heaven, as was a house cocktail one night--with an orange liqueur (not grand marnier, if I recall), champagne, and a slice of candied orange. Downed 3 in an hour. Plate of cured meats and cheese pleased as did the chicken livers spread on toast and the panini sandwiches. All simple but well-prepared. And though I hate to admit this, I can't recall what I've had for dessert there--just that I remember being wowed!

[muza]

Why not, I'll play.

Overrated:

Craft

.Lupa

.San Dominico

.WD50!!!

.I wouldn't say that Per Se is overrated, but it was not perfection and it most certianly should have been (two courses were off. Halibut was totaly over cooked and pasta had zero seasoning).

.Culinary Institute of Americas' Chef instructors (that may be a seperate thread)

Underrated:

.Cafe Boulud

.Annisa

.Tocqueville

[snausages2000]

Nice, another jab at Lupa.

Per my comments on Per Se, please keep in mind there's no restaurant in the city

I'd rather go to. (Who'd like to take me?)

I've been to Grimaldi's about 7 times and, all but once, the crust has been soggy. The sausage is tasty, but what's the point of the hot oven if the dough is flimsy n' wet?

That's the beauty of DiFara's pie - it comes out of the oven crispy (usually), a pizzeria rarity. At most places, only reheated slices tend to be crispy.

The desserts at Craft are tops. Is the same team handling the sweets at Craftbar?

Edited October 1, 2004 by snausages2000 (log)

[SobaAddict70]

All of the restaurants quoted above are good in their own way.

I wouldn't say one is rated more or less than another.

And besides, isn't this all about subjectivity anyway?

Soba

[mikeycook]

Underrated:

L'Impero - Generally, I find most Italian places in NY to be overrated. This is definitely an exception. Conant is currently my favorite NY chef (and I am usually a devoted Francophile).

Tocqueville - I know muza thinks it's overrated, but I wholeheartedly disagree. It is one of my favorite restaurants in Manhattan. It is also a place a lot of New Yorkers don't know much about.

Babbo - Perhaps an odd choice, but so few of the restaurants owned by Food Network chefs are worth going to, it deserves mention. It would be a great restaurant whether or not the world had heard of Mario Batali.

Overrated:

First... good places that IMHO are not great places (but others consider them so)

Le Bernardin - Solid meal (but not mind-blowing). Room was ok. Expected more from a 4-star.

Bouley - Pains me to say this as it has long been one of my favorites, but not what it used to be. It was overrated when it had the 4th star. It may not be overrated by the Times now, but IMHO it is still overrated by most foodies.

Chanterelle - Beautful room, but in my opnion the food is good, not great.

Blue Hill - A good, solid meal, but I am surprised at the number of people who consider it their favorite restaurant. (Speaking of the NYC one, not Stone Barns, which I have not been to.)

La Cote Basque - I know they closed, but I was treated so poorly in my one trip there that I had to mention them anyway. :-)

And then the rest...

Da Silvano - Mainly for celeb sighting now.

Mesa Grill - Always has left me kind of cold.

Carmine's - Never have understood the attraction. Places where you stand in line and get treated like s**t by the host/hostess are not for me. Besides, I can serve family-style pasta at home.

Grimaldi's - Good pizza, love the coal over taste, but worth standing in the line? I think not. To me, places like this get by on reputation.

Lombardi's - Ditto Grimaldi's.

Tavern on the Green - Doesn't even really need to be said.

[getxo]

"Per my comments on Per Se, please keep in mind there's no restaurant in the city

I'd rather go to. (Who'd like to take me?)"

Snasages 2000, I like your irreverant attitude toward Per Se, which has already been sanctified as the temple of gastronomy in NYC in such a short period of time (which seems to defy a more sensible wait and see attitude).

And it goes without saying that on any given night, the technical execution of the dishes or service may not pass muster to the most exacting standards, although from my own experience I find that difficult to imagine.

One thing, however, is for sure: Per Se is arguably underrated in what it offers to its patrons in terms of luxurious ingredients: from the ridiculously large serving of Ossetra caviar, to the painstakingly prepared fois gras torchon, to the Nova Scotia lobster, and perigord truffles, to the kobe beef, etc. (the list goes on) in one sitting boggles the culinary imagination. And finally, the greatest luxury of all: tons and tons of open space between tables.

Believe the hype. At least, in the short term, it's the real deal. Beg, borrow, or steal to get a seat. What remains to be seen is the ability of Per Se to sustain this level of performance over time and still be profitable as an enterprise. It doesn't seem to add up, given my experience in similarly situated European restaurants.

[Stone]

All of the restaurants quoted above are good in their own way.

←

True, but some of them are over or underrated.

I wouldn't say one is rated more or less than another.

You'd be wrong. And even if you weren't, that would only prove that some are over or underrated.

And besides, isn't this all about subjectivity anyway?

Yes and no. But that's why the discussion is interesting and helpful.

Edited October 1, 2004 by Stone (log)

[TrishCT]

Katz's is overrated.

After years of listening to the hype I finally went with several people. Yeah, the pastrami was very good (but I think Schwartz's smoked meat in Montreal is better) but way overpriced. And none of the other sandwiches the rest of our group ate there were very good.

One hit wonder.

[SobaAddict70]

True, but some of them are over or underrated.

You'd be wrong.  And even if you weren't, that would only prove that some are over or underrated.

Yes and no.  But that's why the discussion is interesting and helpful.

←

Overrated or underrated perhaps to Person X. But not to the vast majority of restaurant-goers. This is part of the reason why as above, Lupa and/or Olive Garden are packed.

A blanket statement such as "China is overrated" isn't exactly helpful, merely being provacative.

You can make a rule that says Restaurant Z is overrated or underrated, but ultimately the rule is only applicable to a certain limited set of people unless supported by a sufficient body of evidence.

Soba

[muza]

I would just like to make clear that I do infact feel that Tocqueville is underrated.