Vermouth

[MattJohnson]

I've just given Cinzano a try and find it pretty good. I too have a hard time dropping 30 bucks for vermouth - which is pretty much a non issue as I can't find Carpano Antica.

[thirtyoneknots]

I've never been able to locate Antica nor have any travelling friends (always seems to be sold out where they are) but I understand it comes in a 1 liter bottle, vs the standard 750ml. If true, that makes it equivalent to 22.50/btl when comparing it to other vermouths. If I recall, Vya is about that much, and Punt y Mes isn't far off.

Could it be that the enthusiasm with the bitters is obscuring the particular chemistry M&R has with rye? I doubt that stuff would change anyone's life drank straight (though it's certainly pleasant, imo) but it does do cocktails well, I think.

[Chris Amirault]

I want 250 ml bottles of both PeM and CAF, personally. Working through 1l of CAF is a pleasant if ultimately disappointing race against time....

[slkinsey]

I've found that Carpano Antica Formula holds up very well over time, so long as it is kept under refrigeration.

[Chris Amirault]

Do you use the VacuVin wine pump thingy?

[slkinsey]

Usually, yea. But I find that refrigeration makes more difference than anything.

[brinza]

... I understand it comes in a 1 liter bottle, vs the standard 750ml. If true, that makes it equivalent to 22.50/btl when comparing it to other vermouths. If I recall, Vya is about that much, and Punt y Mes isn't far off.

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You're right--I keep forgetting that. I paid $18 for Vya, so this is isn't all that much more. I might just bite the bullet and try the CAF.

Sam, could you elaborate on what you mean about the Dolin not working "exactly like most sweet red vermouths"?

BTW, what exactly are blanc vermouths? Are they simply semi-sweet white vermouths? How are they used? I noticed that M&R has a blanc which has shown up in my area.

[bostonapothecary]

... I understand it comes in a 1 liter bottle, vs the standard 750ml. If true, that makes it equivalent to 22.50/btl when comparing it to other vermouths. If I recall, Vya is about that much, and Punt y Mes isn't far off.

←

You're right--I keep forgetting that. I paid $18 for Vya, so this is isn't all that much more. I might just bite the bullet and try the CAF.

Sam, could you elaborate on what you mean about the Dolin not working "exactly like most sweet red vermouths"?

BTW, what exactly are blanc vermouths? Are they simply semi-sweet white vermouths? How are they used? I noticed that M&R has a blanc which has shown up in my area.

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blancs or biancos are vermouths decolored with carbon. i haven't had every bianco but they seem to be as sweet as the traditional sweet vermouth and have the same botanical intensity maybe even more so making them come across as slightly bitter. they are fun but they really don't seem to be worth too much more than their color... we use them mainly in the pastry department.

[slkinsey]

blancs or biancos are vermouths decolored with carbon.

Where did you get this information?

[weinoo]

If you can find it, Casa Martelletti also makes a very good sweet red vermouth.

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Funny, I just saw this yesterday at the new DiPalo's wine shop on Grand. $20 for a 750. Comes in a can just like Antica. They could probably save a buck each by getting rid of the can.

I'm with Sam - I have no trouble going through my bottles of Antica before they get funky (er)...kept on the shelf in my fridge. But maybe that's cause our favorite drinks are Americanos, Manhattans, Martinezes, Negronis, etc.

[eas]

The clear Blanc (aka bianco) style of vermouth originated in Chambéry in the 19th century and was a hallmark product of most all of the producers (Comoz, Dolin, Boissiere, Richard, etc.,.). The clarity was then a marvel, though today no mystery to most any white wine producer. Many of these same producers made in tandem a dry variation, no less pale, that became especially popular in the 1920's and 1930's was soon replicated elsewhere. Martini adopted both clear styles, and today their Blanc (they call Bianco) is the world best selling of any vermouth.

Most Blanc/Bianco and Rouge/Rosso of the same family have the same % sugar, though typically have different formulations within the family (expect lighter and more fruit notes on the Blanc).

On matters of storage, the Carpano Antica should be among the longest lasting - it has a higher level of sugar than most any other sweet red vermouth on the market, and to great effect.

As I'd noted in another thread, many of the great French producers also made vermouth of the Marseilles style, which Noilly Prat has just reintroduced into the US market to replace their pale dry. This style is noted for its gold/straw color, oak from the aging and a Madeira finish. In France it's quite popular for cooking and IMO expands our options for vermouth in cocktails.

[bostonapothecary]

blancs or biancos are vermouths decolored with carbon.

Where did you get this information?

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one of maynard amerine's abstracts from "vermouth an annotated bibliography"

there was lots of turn of the century vermouth analysis and one that even examined what was at the paris exposition of 1900, supposedly representing the best available. the analysis explains sugar, acid, alcohol, and extract.

the bianco coloring was explained in the abstract of a source from 1917 which analyzed 142 samples.

[eje]

From the wine forum...

So you were wondering just how far back vermouth went?

Herbal wine, just the thing for ailing pharoahs

A chemical analysis of pottery dating to 3150 B.C. shows that herbs and resins were added to grape wine, researchers led by Patrick E. McGovern of the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology report in Tuesday's edition of Proceedings of the National Academy of Science....Chemicals recovered from the pottery indicate that in addition to wine there were savory, blue tansy and artemisia — a member of the wormwood family — present. Other chemicals indicate the possible presence of balm, senna, coriander, germander, mint, sage and thyme.

[Wild Bill Turkey]

That's what I call Antica Formula .

[tsg20]

Does anyone know of anywhere in NYC (preferably Manhattan) selling Carpano Antica? I'm going to be there next weekend and would love to pick some up (as far as I know it's not distributed in MA).

[daisy17]

Does anyone know of anywhere in NYC (preferably Manhattan) selling Carpano Antica? I'm going to be there next weekend and would love to pick some up (as far as I know it's not distributed in MA).

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Astor and Union Square Wines carry it.

[Alchemist]

As rhtorical questions... I want to fortify and aromitize a vermouth making it bigger and stronger. Just say I took Brand X sweet Vermouth and added some botanicles, fruit, brandy and sugar, what would happen? Can I put Brand X in a 20 liter Cambro with the stuff and keep it refrigerated for 2 weeks then strain and put in gallon glass growlers in the walk-in? Will it last? Will it have oxodized too much in the Cambro?

Should I just start with wine? Will I need to add so much more of all additives that it won't make it cost-effective?

My mind is realing on how to make a consistant, excellent product, in large quanities.

Any ideas/observations/challenges are welcome.

Toby

[tsg20]

Does anyone know of anywhere in NYC (preferably Manhattan) selling Carpano Antica? I'm going to be there next weekend and would love to pick some up (as far as I know it's not distributed in MA).

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Astor and Union Square Wines carry it.

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Sorry for the late response on this one - didn't make it to NYC that time, but have done now and this advice was invaluable. Thanks!

[tim g]

As rhtorical questions... I want to fortify and aromitize a vermouth making it bigger and stronger.  Just say I took Brand X sweet Vermouth and added some botanicles, fruit, brandy and sugar, what would happen? Can I put Brand X in a 20 liter Cambro with the stuff and keep it refrigerated for 2 weeks then strain and put in gallon glass growlers in the walk-in?  Will it last?  Will it have oxodized too much in the Cambro?

Should I just start with wine?  Will I need to add so much more of all additives that it won't make it cost-effective?

My mind is realing on how to make a consistant, excellent product, in large quanities.

Any ideas/observations/challenges are welcome.

Toby

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i havent tried it, but i remember reading this a while ago - http://www.artofdrink.com/2007/03/how-to-make-vermouth.php - and being tempted to

[bostonapothecary]

i just opened a bottle of carpano antica and i'm pretty sure its "corked" like a cork tainted wine...

2,4,6-trichloroanisole (TCA)

no vermouth aroma, only musty wet card board

anyone else experience this? it was $30. should i be able to return it like a wine?

[thirtyoneknots]

i just opened a bottle of carpano antica and i'm pretty sure its "corked" like a cork tainted wine...

2,4,6-trichloroanisole (TCA)

no vermouth aroma, only musty wet card board

anyone else experience this? it was $30. should i be able to return it like a wine?

I certainly would! Carpano Antica should not have that character or anything resembling it.

[vice]

On the subject of preservation, has anyone tried these Foodsaver bottle tops? I imagine the vacuum produced by a machine removes more air than the Vacuvin hand pump. All in all, refrigeration would probably make more of a difference, but for those of us with 19 cuft refrigerators, food storage is more of a priority than bottle storage. Anathema, I know...

[Kent Wang]

My guess is that the the FoodSaver would only pump out a neglibly greater amount of air than a hand pump. I have a FoodSaver and would also consider inconvenient to have to take it out each time to use it. I have a hand pump in a drawer, while the FoodSaver is in the pantry.

Here's my system: I buy Dolin, which is only available in 750 mL (around here anyway). I have a bunch of 375 mL bottles from NP and M&R. I pour the Dolin into the half-bottles and put vacuum tops on them.

[eas]

My guess is that the the FoodSaver would only pump out a neglibly greater amount of air than a hand pump. I have a FoodSaver and would also consider inconvenient to have to take it out each time to use it. I have a hand pump in a drawer, while the FoodSaver is in the pantry.

Here's my system: I buy Dolin, which is only available in 750 mL (around here anyway). I have a bunch of 375 mL bottles from NP and M&R. I pour the Dolin into the half-bottles and put vacuum tops on them.

I take the wino route of using Argon gas - in fact I bought my last bottle at Austin Wine Merchant ("Private Preserve").

I think the 375s of the Dolin line are in TX now...

[Chris Amirault]

Hennes and I were talking about using a FoodSaver bag to preserve vermouth, and couldn't see why that wouldn't work quite well. Same reason, too: we both want to buy a bottle of Carpano Antica Formula but don't want to have to swig a liter fast before it goes south.