Corkage fees

[Fat Guy]

Why doesn't a restaurant just say that BYO is the same as tea?

Because it's not.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Sure it is. Both tables do not order wine.

[tommy]

for those of you who might not know, plots is just as frustrating to talk to in person. but he does smile, and seems to subtly acknowledge that he's a pain in the ass, which makes it all a bit more palatable. not much, but a bit.

[Rail Paul]

One other point. I've always been conscious of the fact the price of a bottle of wine in a restaurant is always way more expensive than a comparable bottle (same producer, same appellation, same vintage, etc.) in a wine shop. While  that's always been a sticking point with me, recent posts here on quality and price have been quite convincing that the bottle in the restaurant is just plain better.

Blue Sky, an establishment in Montclair NJ, has just such an arrangement. It owns a wine store adjacent to the restaurant. Inside the same building, closer than the rest rooms.

Hundreds of wines in the selection, many chilled. If you walk over with a copy of the menu, they'll offer you a chef recommended wine. retail prices, not marked up 3x wholesale.

(Montclair's unusual. In NJ a package store license usually costs much more than a restaurant (on premises consumption) license. It's the other way around in Montclair. Blue Sky arb'd that by buying a store license)

[Fat Guy]

for those of you who might not know, plots is just as frustrating to talk to in person.  but he does smile, and seems to subtly acknowledge that he's a pain in the ass, which makes it all a bit more palatable.  not much, but a bit.

I would also add that in person he is not a moron at all.

[LaNiña]

for those of you who might not know, plots is just as frustrating to talk to in person.  but he does smile, and seems to subtly acknowledge that he's a pain in the ass, which makes it all a bit more palatable.  not much, but a bit.

i know i'm doing something right when plots has to say to me "if i can get a word in"

[Bux]

Fat Guy - You model assumes that if a restaurant doesn't give the table to someone who BYOs then they are going to sell an expensive bottle of wine. What if it's a table of tea drinkers?

The restaurant doesn't serve tea friendly food, but do you have any idea of the markup on tea?

[jaybee]

To use someone's favorite word, this debate seems dopey. It's moot to question Daniel's policy of no BYO, just as it is moot to question their prices for caviar. You either pay it or not. What does the restaurant's business model have to do with you? If drinking great wine is important to you and you own some, you'd want to eat someplace that allowed BYO at a reasonable price. As someone said, whenever I've brought a really good bottle, the service staff are excited and make me feel that they admire my taste in wine.

How wine BYO came about in the first place is an interesting question. Does anyone know its history? Does it date from prohibition?

[jordyn]

Jaybee:

To the extent that there is some discussion taking place regarding the appropriateness of taking advantage of a restaurant's BYO service, it is reasonable to engage in a discussion of the economics of that service, as well as a diner's potential motivations for taking advantage of it

[Fat Guy]

You either pay it or not.

There are additional choices, one of which is talking about it on an Internet message board.

It is fashionable on eGullet to say, hey, the business charges what it wants, and you can buy it or not, and that's that. But nobody really believes it except maybe lxt.

Likewise, it's fashionable to say, hey, if it's allowed, why shouldn't I do it? But nobody really believes that either, otherwise we'd never tip.

[jordyn]

Fat Guy:

To the extent that at least one restaurant accountant has indicated that corkage represents a "wet dream" to them economically, how is your position that BYO is appropriate in only the most exceptional of circumstances supportable?

[jaybee]

To the extent that there is some discussion taking place regarding the appropriateness of taking advantage of a restaurant's BYO service, it is reasonable to engage in a discussion of the economics of that service, as well as a diner's potential motivations for taking advantage of it

Discussing the economics and motivations of BYO from the perspective of the diner make's sense to me. Discussing it from the perspective of the restaurant doesn't. They make whatever decision they make because they think it will be in their economic interest. Some get it right, others don't. Big deal.

[Fat Guy]

Jordyn: I think I've mentioned a few times that my comments are limited to a certain type of restaurant. Glenn's restaurant is not in that category.

[tommy]

when do we get to the part when i can say "i'm right, you're all wrong. so there."?

[jaybee]

when do we get to the part when i can say "i'm right, you're all wrong. so there."?

You're right and I'm wrong, so there.

Say goodnight Gracie.

[lizziee]

There are so many ways that a restaurant, even with a corkage policy, can discourage BYO's when they only do it as a courtesy. For example, without obvert disinterest and bad service, a diner "knows" when their own wine is not exactly welcome. On the other hand, every, and I emphasize the word every, time we have brought wine to a fine dining restaurant, the sommelier has engaged my husband (who is the true wine expert in the family) in a lengthy discussion about wine, tasted what we brought, and enjoyed the exchange. I can't believe this is phony, in the name of good service. I honestly believe that sommeliers as well as chef/owners sense the excitement of the diner for the wine and the corresponding excitement for the food.

[Beachfan]

After a lively dinner discussion tonight, with my wise wife (knows fine wine, drinks hardly at all, comes from a restaurant family), and one of my best friends* (a Jack Benny with a wine jones and a very frequent BYOer ), I have modified my opinon somewhat.

1) There are different economics and morees in NYC vs. California. Bringing great wine is part of the culture in LA and has cachet. In NYC, it's more of an accomodation. Although I don't have the facts, I think costs are higher in Midtown NYC than Beverly Hills, certainly true in Manhatten vs. Westside LA.

2) There is a frequency issue. Doing it often and most of the time in NYC could be gauche. Doing it 100% of the time might be gauche in LA (not sure of that yet). While I probably disagree with Shaw on where the balance is, he has a point.

3) It isn't the stand alone issue of BYO. It's what you bring to the bottomline. If they make an average or above amount of money from you, they are happy.

4) I get welcomed in NY because I'm a convivial and knowledgeable patron who consumes an above average amount of other stuff and contribute nicely to the bottomline, even when I BYO. And because I choose places that are welcoming by nature, and it would be hard for them to not welcome the average patron. This is even more true of my neighborhood place in LA.

5) I think there are some analogies to bottled water, but they aren't well formed in my mind.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I think Jaybee has got this one right. A restaurant has the choice to view a BYO diner as one who is using a table to the detriment of their being able to sell the table to someone who is going to buy an expensive bottle of wine, or they can see that person as replacing another party that only drinks water and the corkage fees make them more money. I don't think anybody has offered definitive proof to support either argument but, seeing empty tables and knowing there are water only tables seem like pretty good evidence to me. However, Jaybee also rightly points out that the BYO customer is a unique animal and that his main purpose for dining is to drink his own wine. It never gets to the issue of who has what wine on their list. It starts and ends with that premise. So either restaurants want to accomodate that diner or they don't. So when Fat Guy says that it is my loss, it absolutely isn't. On balance, 90% of the time I want to drink my own wine more than I want to eat the food at any particular restuarant in town. And that is what I do. And when I just *have to eat somewhere,* like my upcoming dinner at Daniel which will be the first dinner I've had in the main dining room in two years, then that's what I do the other 10% of the time, .

[cabrales]

Beachfan -- Apart from the restaurants already mentioned in this thread, are you aware of NY restaurants at comparable levels that permit BYO?  I do not have a cellar, and might purchase 6-8 bottles from time to time to drink at home and occasionally to bring to restaurants (increasingly so). It's still worthwhile, depending on the wine involved.

I believe the print version of the Vacuous Gourmet's Phone Book (aka Zagat) has a list in back. At least my older version did.

You can add Tabla to the list above.

Apologies the numbers in the "Corkage Fees" list at the back of the *2001* NY Zagat might be outdated (I have not purchased the 2002; members should verify before reliance). The Zagat website does not currently have a list. However, below is the relevant discussion from the 2001 Zagat:

"(The following major places permit patrons to BYOW after phoning in advance; though the practice is not common, these places do not discourage it, especially for rare bottles that are not on their list)

Blue Ribbon Sushi ($20)

*Chanterelle ($35)*

Eleven Madison ($20)

FireBird ($20)

Gotham Bar & Grill ($35)

Gramercy Tavern ($20)

Il Mulino (varies by vintage)

Jean Georges ($45 -- outdated clearly)

La Caravelle ($30)

Le Perigord ($15)

*Nobu ($15)*

Nobu, Next Door ($15)

*Picholine ($35)*

71 Clinton ($15)

Sushi of Gari ($20)

Tabla ($20)

Union Pacific ($30)

Union Square Cafe ($20)

Vong ($20)"

What are members' experiences with BYO at Chanterelle?

[GordonCooks]

FG - Without breaking any confidences, aside from the wine, what was the biggest cost factor for the restaurants?

Food costs typically run 25-30% Under 20% - You have a Thai restaurant.

[Beachfan]

As a result of this thread, I no longer ask what the corkage policy is. I ask "how do you feel about it"?

The two responses so far:

Bouley, NYC (from the day maitre d):

"The chef is concerned about corkage". He went on to say it was much better if it wasn't doubling the list and if we were ordering another bottle would be a consideration. Given that I wasn't doubling, and would be happy to order if it made a difference, he was then welcoming, but did say "we normally don't do it" and the corkage would be $50 (It was a 1988 d'Yquem). Overall, he was concerned but gracious, and appreciative of the advance call.

(The prior time, I didn't ask how he felt, and the policy was more liberal, $35 a piece for 2 bottles, no other wine orders. But I think it's clear there policy has changed as the reservationist routed the question to the maitre d).

Delfina, SF (from the reservationist):

"We're happy to do it. It's absolutely no problem at all". And the corkage is $15.

[Beachfan]

From Fleur de Lys' (SF) website

"Also available, is a separate area for our regular guests to store some of their private collection for future dinners at Fleur de Lys".

Cost of storage unknown. I'm going Friday, so I'll get more info.

Fleur de Lys Wine philosophy

[Fat Guy]

Thanks for these continued updates, and keep 'em coming.

[MartyL]

Speaking of BYOB, I had a very amusing experience at 71 Clinton Fresh Foods recently.

I had read on one of the internet boards that 71 Clinton allowed BYOB and charged $15 per bottle corkage. My wife wanted to go there on her birthday and I decided to bring a bottle of 91 Chave Hermitage Rouge for the occasion. I called to confirm that they allowed BYOB and the person who took my reservation said they did allow it but charged a $25 per bottle corkage fee. I said fine and asked them to make a note that we would be bringing a bottle of Chave Hermitage.

Upon arrival, I presented our bottle to the host and asked if it could be decanted. He then said "Of course, no problem, but just to be sure, you are aware we charge $35 corkage, right?" Not wanting to make a scene, I just nodded.

The wine was terrific, as was the food, and we offered the last of the wine in the decanter to our waiter to share with the host and the chef. There was probably enough for each of them to have about a 1.5 oz. taste.

They ended up comping us the corkage and bringing us each a glass of dessert wine on the house.

[CtznCane]

What is a reasonable charge for corkage? Typically I've found it to be $10-20 per bottle. $10 I think is reasonable. At $20 I still accept the fact but it just sort of sticks with me. One place (Julius Castle) , that was $20 per bottle I took in a magnum and of course they charged me $40. I wonder if I'd taken a half bottle of desert wine if they'd only charge me $10? I doubt it.

The best restaurant I've found for corkage though is Dry Creek Kitchen in Healdsburg. They will not charge you for corkage for the first two botttles with one proviso: The wines must be Sonoma County Wines. I admire their point of view. They make it more enticing for you to eat their and bring your own wine as well as do it in a way that supports their local wineries. Being a person of high moral fiber and character (on occasions when it suits me of course) this sits well with me. Being a fine restaurant as well, this makes the dining experience more affordable and accessilbe. It is truly a win-win proposition.

I wish restaurants would either make it more reasonable, in terms of corkage fee, or perhaps a slidiing scale, $20 for the first bottle, $15/10 for the second bottle. , $10/5 for the third bottle,.... I don't know for sure as I have not done it, but having been in sales for many years, if it were a large group I'm sure one could negotiate a flat fee.

Just wonder what others think is reasonable. ALso, were it more reasonable, would that make you more inclined to eat out more often? More willing to spend more on a nice meal knowing you wouldn't have to pay restaurant prices on wine?