daSto

[mnebergall]

Let me guess.......

Please allow me to be the first to welcome Marc Fisher to eGullet as an active participant.

Well, am I right?

I think Joe wins.

[marcfisher]

Sorry to disappoint, but I am neither Cos nor Big Al Sharpton. But I'm happy to answer some of the points that have been made here, and to invite any and all to join in my online show tomorrow (Thursday) at noon at www.washingtonpost.com/liveonline to continue the discussion or give the Post's readers a sense of your take on da Sto, Colorado Kitchen, the column, or egullet.

I thank Steve Klc for his rousing defense of how I reported the column, but I should probably answer your questions directly on that: It's quite routine for reporters to get story ideas, collect viewpoints, and get a sense of ongoing debates from the many listservs and other online communities in our area. I monitor about 75 neighborhood listservs in every part of the metro Washington region, trying to keep up on local issues. On many of those message boards, people use their real names, and I and other reporters often contact those folks to flesh out our reporting on a given topic. In those cases, I would quote from people's posts or, far more commonly, from our conversations, using their names.

Some communities are more geared toward screen names, as egullet is, and in those cases, if we quote from the conversation, we do so anonymously. As several of you noted, the focus of this column was Gillian Clark and da Sto, and the fact that the name of the store had sparked discussion here. I didn't see much call for getting into the personalities of those who were batting around the topic on this site, so I didn't quote anyone here by name. I think Steven Shaw's post on the press and egullet said it all better than I could.

Morela's post about private people having a greater right to control information about themselves than public people accurately reflects the nature of libel and privacy law, but has no bearing on this situation. A large part of good, fully textured reporting is based on what you could call glorified eavesdropping--having a good ear on a given community and what its members care and talk about. Online communities are a terrific reporting tool for taking journalists closer to the people we're supposed to write about.

JPW suggested that I picked up this story idea from the City Paper; in fact, until I read his post today, I had no idea that CityPaper had written about da Sto. I try to give credit to other publications if I comment on an issue that has first appeared elsewhere, but checking the archives of CityPaper now, I find no such piece. Can you direct me to it?

JPW also says that my column is part of a "rotating cast of columnists" who do "day in a life pieces." There's no rotation here at the Post--my column runs three days a week on the Metro front. Metro is also home to two other columnists, Donna Britt and Courtland Milloy, whose pieces run once or twice a week. And I think I'm correct in saying I have never written a day in the life story, though perhaps I'm forgetting one from my years in the Style section. I try to take on issues from every walk of life--politics, social questions, family topics. The column is the only element on the Metro page that appears in all editions of the paper, whether you live in Maryland, Virginia or the District, so I try to use the column to emphasize issues that should cross the boundary lines of our lives, connecting the suburbanite with the city dweller and reaching across the cultural divide of the Potomac.

As for the merits of the column, I leave that to you to discuss. But I'll check back later today to answer questions, and invite criticism, questions and comments on my online show tomorrow.

[JPW]

I win!!!

Marc - I'd like to clarify a few things. It was actually Steve who mentioned the Todd Kliman article on Gillian Clark in the City Paper and which explored some of the racial issues surrounding her endeavors. I don't think that it mentioned daSto. Unfortunately, City Paper online archives tend not to go back very far so it is not a surprise thatt you cannot find it. Todd posts here occasionally, so perhaps when he sees that you are interested, he could dig up a copy.

I wondered only if you had seen it and meant in no way to imply that I thought that you had lifted your column from his piece.

My apologies for misrepresenting your column. I was searching for a quick way to describe to Fat Guy (aka our benevolent overlord Steven Shaw) how the Metro section is laid out. Mea Culpa.

[mnebergall]

Mr. Fisher:

First, welcome to eGullet. We are glad to have you aboard.

I need to be somewhat delicate here because this forum is all about food and it's kind of hard to weave a discussion of food with the racial issues that this thread raises. I run the risk that Rocks will delete my post. But the thread seems to have morphed into a discussion of your column so hopefully the censors will allow us some leeway.

At the end of your column, you quote Chef Clark as saying:

All of us will be saying 'Da Sto.' How's that for

eliminating stereotypes?"

I think an argument could be made (not that I'm making it) that the use of the name could have the opposite effect; that is, it could perpetuate and reinforce a stereotype. Your thoughts?

Spelling edit.

Edited August 11, 2004 by mnebergall (log)

[eunny jang]

Marc -

Rather than being coy, I'll just say that I felt the column was fairly one-sided. Personally, I feel what I said and what I meant (and clarified in later posts) were misrepresented, and in addition quoted in such a way that it seemed they expressed the general sentiment on the thread, when in fact there was a wide range of opinions across the board (pun intended). It's great that eGullet was exposed to a huge audience in your column, but I'm sure people on the DC board are wishing that my comments weren't the ones chosen to represent the community when so many others felt completely different things about the subject and I was actually in the (vocal) minority.

That said, thanks for the piece and for posting.

Edit: Leaving the poor horse in peace

Edited August 11, 2004 by eunny jang (log)

[Busboy]

I was hoping Mark wouldsay to anyone who whined about their posts being promoted to hardcopy status, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!"

Now that, "Chef" and "Columnist" have weighed in, this thread may have to be regarded as a classic, like Mouton '45 or Cornell '77.

[DCMark]

Mr. Fisher:

First, welcome to eGullet. We are glad to have you aboard.

I need to be somewhat delicate here because this forum is all about food and it's kind of hard to weave a discussion of food with the racial issues that this thread raises. I run the risk that Rocks will delete my post. But the thread seems to have morphed into a discussion of your column so hopefully the censors will allow us some leeway.

At the end of your column, you quote Chef Clark as saying:

All of us will be saying 'Da Sto.' How's that for

eliminating stereotypes?"

I think an argument could be made (not that I'm making it) that the use of the name could have the opposite effect; that is, it could perpetuate and reinforce a stereotype. Your thoughts?

Spelling edit.

Mark (not the columist):

That is why I was against the name in the first place. Going to a certain southern school I was a bit shocked at all the outright use of the 'n' word amoung white students (behind the back of others of course). It took me a while to figure out how to respond to these cretins, this was part of my own growing up and development. But I did see that any opportunity to reinforce a sterotype was welcomed by these bigots and lead to more racail name-calling. Now I realize that Ms. Gillian is not responsible for policing the minds of these bigots. But I am sure DaSto is giving plenty of them a good chuckle and that makes me seethe.

I don't think Don is going to close your post. This particular discussion long ago crossed over the line of EGullet rules. It now has no relation whatsoever to food, restaurants, etc. If the subject was the election, even if tangentially related to food, it would be long gone I think.

[marcfisher]

Quickly, because I have to write tomorrow's column:

1) Mnebergall: Sure, you could well argue that "da Sto" perpetuates stereotypes, but such questions are almost always a matter more of context than of content: If, say, Don Rumsfeld opened a shop called da Sto, I think we'd all agree that he'd be open to much more widespread and legitimate questions about motives and intent than if, say, Gillian Clark or Bill Clinton or Carol Schwartz made the same move. Your beliefs, your past and your public attitudes send the message about your meaning more than do the particular actions or words you deliver. In Clark's case, from what I know of her in one interview and some background reading and conversations and a couple of visits to her place, I think the context for da Sto renders her decision to use that name at least acceptable and probably both fun and provocative, both of which are good things for a chef-owner to be.

2) Eunny Jang--I don't agree that I misrepresented the conversation you all had here. I quoted from both Clark's detractors and her defenders. (I originally had that great line someone used about how none of this mattered--basically a pox on all your houses--in there as an example of the middle ground, but I had to kill it for space reasons.) I think 99 out of 100 reporters would have chosen your words to quote because you most pithily and eloquently stated your case, and it was your posts that got the ball rolling. It would have been unfair NOT to have quoted you.

If you'd like to continue this, please join me tomorrow at noon on the Post's site--thanks.

[Al_Dente]

If, say, Don Rumsfeld opened a shop called da Sto

Okay, sit back and relax. Close your eyes. Now imagine Donald Rumsfeld. Then imagine Colorado Kitchen. Next, imagine Donald Rumsfeld there in the kitchen, back behind the counter, sweating over the stove and cooking your delicious dinner instead of Gillian Clark.

Funny ain't it?

[Minister of Drink]

I don't think Don is going to close your post.  This particular discussion long ago crossed over the line of EGullet rules.  It now has no relation whatsoever to food, restaurants, etc.  If the subject was the election, even if tangentially related to food, it would be long gone I think.

I couldn't agree more: "daSto" in and of itself really has nothing to do with food and restaurants! According to the first post on this thread, daSTO will sell

"classic replica aprons, cards, gifts, vintage cook books and appliances, unique and hard to find packaged food, specialty baked goods by Polly Style...a whole assortment of kitchen kitsch."

Apart from the baked goods, this sounds like a classic small retail store. The only link here is that the owner just happens to own a restaurant -- one that I can't wait to visit. Other retail enterprises such as gas stations for example, sell packaged food and even baked goods -- I don't see them on EG???

As for the name, we should just let it be! If enough people are really put off by it, they simply will not shop at daSto and then it will die a natural death based on supply and demand (of customers). However, somehow I think that this will not happen I certainly hope not!!!

If I am missing something please tell me!

Edited August 11, 2004 by Minister of Drink (log)

[8Track]

One thing for Chef Gillian, she's ginned up a hell of a lot of free publicity for her new store (sto?).

The thing that continues to piss me off about DC is that in so many debates regarding potentially differential impacts to participants of different socio-economic strata, one side or the other will inevitably drag out the "R" word, thus triggering hysterical and over-the-top reactions from both sides. Marc Fisher is well aware of this phenomenon, and relies on it as fodder for often entertaining columns -- the stuff that sells newspapers.

Savvy political operators and citizen activists know that they can rely on the "R"-bomb to get citywide attention at the drop of a hat. It's a self-perpetuating phenomenon. I know of no major city that continues to be as self-absorbed about matters of race as this one. And I don't mean that in a good way.

[babka]

One thing for Chef Gillian, she's ginned up a hell of a lot of free publicity for her new store (sto?).

huh? she named it. she shared the name. then she responded when eG exploded in six directions on it, and mr. fisher picked up parts of the explosion and her response. I don't think that controversy was her goal....but even if it had been, eG was the entity that ginned it up.

[8Track]

One thing for Chef Gillian, she's ginned up a hell of a lot of free publicity for her new store (sto?). 

huh? she named it. she shared the name. then she responded when eG exploded in six directions on it, and mr. fisher picked up parts of the explosion and her response. I don't think that controversy was her goal....but even if it had been, eG was the entity that ginned it up.

First of all, let me say that I think the name is funny and should be kept. But I recognize many have legitimate reasons to disagree.

You can't convince me, however, that Gillian had no inkling the name might be a teensy weensy bit controversial. She knows she'd be vilified if she said she picked the name for the purpose of being controversial. So she, with a Cheshire Cat grin not visible on eG, explains that it was merely an innocent reflection of the way people in that neighborhood speak.

Don't you think she at least suspected there might be some risk that the name might rub some folks the wrong way? Either she's sly like a fox or has a tin ear. I am more ready to believe the former than the latter.

And, assuming for the sake of argument that she DID have a tin ear, then why would she go to lengths to defend the choice of name? If I had a tin ear and realized that people were offended by the name I had chosen, I'd likely back down from the choice quickly. After all, why risk alienating potential customers? I'm telling you folks, she's Madonna sly.

[DonRocks]

I used to be a Big Brother to a black American child whose family moved to San Diego. About a year after they moved, I flew out to visit them, and he was pumped that I was going to drive him and his family up to Los Angeles to go to The Spike Lee Store (which I remember as being annoyingly mainstream-commercial and overpriced). But on the same block, there was this hamburger place - and I'm not making this up - called something like "Mo Betta Meaty Meat." And it was good, too.

So there is precedent!

Rocks.

[mnebergall]

I used to be a Big Brother to a black American child whose family moved to San Diego.  About a year after they moved, I flew out to visit them, and he was pumped that I was going to drive him and his family up to Los Angeles to go to The Spike Lee Store (which I remember as being annoyingly mainstream-commercial and overpriced).  But on the same block, there was this hamburger place - and I'm not making this up - called something like "Mo Betta Meaty Meat."  And it was good, too.

So there is precedent!

Rocks.

There could be even more precedent. Could Mo Pho Noodles qualify?

[Gillian Clark]

  I'm telling you folks, she's Madonna sly.

Wow...I've been just trying to let this one die. I suppose I've got to resond to this one. I hear Madonna spends six hours a day at the gym. She's got all kinds of time to be sly. Let me tell you about my 8/12. Woke up at 8 to take the kids to camp after checking email. Had to go get my 1991 suburban inspected. Then went to DMV to get it registered. While Robin circled the block, I ran into the child support division to pick up the summons to serve my ex so that after 7 years he'll finally pay more than $50 a month child support. Then we ran to Home Depot to get more drainage tube so that impending rain from Bonnie and Charlie did not flood the restaurant basement. All the while I'm calling in orders for bread and trying to get my insurance information to the Pediatrician and get back to Susan Lindeborg whom I haven't seen face to face in almost a year and miss terribly. Robin ran back home to make sure that the house wasn't flooding.

Didn't stop for lunch, but did grab a bite at a greasy spoon on South Dakota Avenue (my only meal Thursday). I had to make 4 sauces (saved the Bearnaise for 5pm) two soups, 40 pounds of hamburgers and 10 pounds of Turkey burgers.

This is really a tempest in teacup. Robin and I could not think of a name. I was originally joking. But it seemed to make sense and flow. We got such positive feedback on the name we decided to keep it. That's all.

I'm not as complicated as you guys all seem to think. I'm just a single mother trying to make a living here in DC. I have two kids to raise and put through school. I have bills to pay and so does Robin. We did not intend to make a political or social statement. We're just (if the DCRA would quit its Mad Hatter Tea Party) trying open a store and get some additional income to pay off some debt.

Robin and I both belong to a gym but the weekends have been so busy and getting the store together has been so hectic, we just do not have time to go. I envy Madonna her gym and sly time. I just don't have it. Nor is it in my nature. I really don't have time to sit here and read eGullet. I have lunch to serve in an hour. Those of you who don't know....I do all of the cooking at CK. ALL OF IT. I doubt I'll have time to shop at daSto, let alone think of my next "sly" maneuver.

[Al_Dente]

Thanks to this thread and the accompanying controversy, I've now begun incorporating "da Sto" into my every day vocabulary. As in when I call my girlfriend on my way home from work:

"Hello my dear, I will be departing from the office shortly. Whilst driving toward our abode, methinks I shall encounter the opportunity to drop by da Sto for any comestibles we may require. Might there be anything we simply must obtain?"

[Turtleboy]

I used to be a Big Brother to a black American child whose family moved to San Diego.  About a year after they moved, I flew out to visit them, and he was pumped that I was going to drive him and his family up to Los Angeles to go to The Spike Lee Store (which I remember as being annoyingly mainstream-commercial and overpriced).  But on the same block, there was this hamburger place - and I'm not making this up - called something like "Mo Betta Meaty Meat."  And it was good, too.

So there is precedent!

Rocks.

There could be even more precedent. Could Mo Pho Noodles qualify?

I prefer Pho Shizzle.

[HOOLIGAN]

  I'm telling you folks, she's Madonna sly.

Wow...I've been just trying to let this one die. I suppose I've got to resond to this one. I hear Madonna spends six hours a day at the gym. She's got all kinds of time to be sly. Let me tell you about my 8/12. Woke up at 8 to take the kids to camp after checking email. Had to go get my 1991 suburban inspected. Then went to DMV to get it registered. While Robin circled the block, I ran into the child support division to pick up the summons to serve my ex so that after 7 years he'll finally pay more than $50 a month child support. Then we ran to Home Depot to get more drainage tube so that impending rain from Bonnie and Charlie did not flood the restaurant basement. All the while I'm calling in orders for bread and trying to get my insurance information to the Pediatrician and get back to Susan Lindeborg whom I haven't seen face to face in almost a year and miss terribly. Robin ran back home to make sure that the house wasn't flooding.

Didn't stop for lunch, but did grab a bite at a greasy spoon on South Dakota Avenue (my only meal Thursday). I had to make 4 sauces (saved the Bearnaise for 5pm) two soups, 40 pounds of hamburgers and 10 pounds of Turkey burgers.

This is really a tempest in teacup. Robin and I could not think of a name. I was originally joking. But it seemed to make sense and flow. We got such positive feedback on the name we decided to keep it. That's all.

I'm not as complicated as you guys all seem to think. I'm just a single mother trying to make a living here in DC. I have two kids to raise and put through school. I have bills to pay and so does Robin. We did not intend to make a political or social statement. We're just (if the DCRA would quit its Mad Hatter Tea Party) trying open a store and get some additional income to pay off some debt.

Robin and I both belong to a gym but the weekends have been so busy and getting the store together has been so hectic, we just do not have time to go. I envy Madonna her gym and sly time. I just don't have it. Nor is it in my nature. I really don't have time to sit here and read eGullet. I have lunch to serve in an hour. Those of you who don't know....I do all of the cooking at CK. ALL OF IT. I doubt I'll have time to shop at daSto, let alone think of my next "sly" maneuver.

Amen, It's just a fucking name, LET IT GO PEOPLE!

You'd think it was Slant-eyed Charlie's House of Braised Puppies.

[DonRocks]

So at this point in the thread, we're faced with two things:

1) 8Track's accusation that Gillian is "Madonna sly"

2) Gillian's stirring "day-in-the-life" vignette

Of course, if Gillian is so sly, her latest post is all part of her Evil Master Plan and we shouldn't fall for it anyway, right?

Give me a break.

[DonRocks]

[Note: daSto (the thread, not the actual store) is closing early this afternoon in a moment of silence for Julia Child, and will reopen later this evening or tomorrow.]

[Edit: daSto is back open for business.]

Play nice,

Rocks.

Edited August 14, 2004 by DonRocks (log)

[Curlz]

Having read this entire thread in one sitting (including links to the Post articles), I absolutely refuse to enter the fray. But I had to tell you that Al_Dente and Hooligan's posts have me in hysterics!!! A much-needed laugh after some tense reading, indeed.

[hillvalley]

[Note: daSto (the thread, not the actual store) is closing early this afternoon in a moment of silence for Julia Child, and will reopen later this evening or tomorrow.]

[Edit: daSto is back open for business.]

Play nice,

Rocks.

You have no idea how confusing this is to read after driving 12 out of the last 45 hours. My brain is still working on passing the next damn camper on the road going 45 in the left lane.

How long was it closed for?

Oh, yeah, I agree with Hooligan, enough already!!!!!!!

[fifi]

The fame is spreading... I just stumbled on this on the FoxNews site... click. Scroll down to "Hero of the Week".

Busybodies on the egullet.com discussion boards have lit into the chef, however, calling the name choice obnoxious, stupid and condescending. She was accused of mocking the speech patterns of her black neighbors.

At least busybody is better than cockroach.

[Nadya]

This must be a slow news day. What with the Olympics and all...