daSto

[morela]

Well, I'll be much more in a shopping mood if I can drink wine in the restaurant.

PS: Minister, can you help? And what's that gorilla avatar all about? Is that a gorilla?

Edited July 29, 2004 by morela (log)

[hillvalley]

Frankly, considering the demographic most of us fit into this whole thread is ironic.

[Al_Dente]

Frankly, considering the demographic most of us fit into this whole thread is ironic.

Fo shizzle.

[morela]

Hmmm...

Something to think about.

Edited July 29, 2004 by morela (log)

[eunny jang]

On the contrary - I'd think the bulk of the target demo for a "little foodie store" would deem the name vaguely unsettling and offensive before they thought it was clever, cute or humorous.

And that's my real problem with it - it's not clever at all.  It's not a pun, it's not really wordplay.  Seems kind of pointless. 

Silly, yes. unsettling or offensive, no.

I should have been clearer - I was suggesting that many of the customers G. Clark is hoping to attract would think so, in this hyper-pc day.

Personally, I just think it's un-clever, sort of gratuitous, and has some serious smugness working for it, which is always unattractive.

[DonRocks]

So as I sign in from Sedona, Arizona, out here for a little research into Native American cuisines, and entirely Sinagua as I sip on a 2001 Pesquera, I leaf through this strangely volatile thread, and after thinking about all the political, philosophical and cathartic opinions being fecklessly bandied about here, I can think of only one thing to say to Gillian Clark for having indirectly consumed thirty minutes of my precious vacation time:

I'm gonna git you, succor.

Rocks.

[DonRocks]

Gillian Clark contacted me about this thread, and gave me permission to reproduce her letter to me in its entirety:

Don,

I read the daSto thread, and I'm always interested to see a bunch of over-educated white people "dissing" an over-educated black chef for calling her store (very tongue-in-cheek I might add) a word she hears every day.  Nobody in the neighborhood is offended by that sign that has been hanging for two weeks.

None of my customers or employees who often say they're going to "da Sto" are ashamed of how they talk.  It seems that only a small group of snooty white people attempting to be politically correct foodies find fault with their pronunciation.  I'm from New York...I think everybody down here talks funny.  And I think that they would be offended by your attempts to come to their rescue.

Where DOES all this hostility come from anyway? 

What offends me are people that have never darkened my door, yet see fit to judge me and my store and the quality of my merchandise just because they do not like the name I chose.

I am a former English teacher.  I have given up correcting people.  When in Rome......

Chef

(or for those who are offended that I sign my emails Chef)

Yours,

Gillian

The next eGullet DC & DelMarVa chat will be with Gillian, and will officially begin next Monday (in a separate thread), so hone your blades, screw your courage to its sticking place, and get your questions ready.

Cheers,

Rocks.

[JennyUptown]

DAMN!

For me, race figures into this not one iota and I resent that this immediately got to the point of citing "over-educated white people."

None of you here know me all that well so I won't expect you to understand where I'm coming from and honestly I could not care less about trying to explain myself.

Chef, if you are reading this, your restaurant is a place I've been meaning to try for quite some time now. I've heard such raves about the establishment and the food, if not the service. The things that most of us are saying regarding the name of your new store are not meant to be hostile. This web site is for talking about experiences and expressing opinions.

Call your store whatever the hell you please. I might have checked it out in spite of finding the name awkward to say, but knowing that you might view me as just another over-educated, snooty white person, I won't bother.

But good luck to you just the same.

[bilrus]

Earlier this year, someone called us "hipster foodies".

Now we're "politically correct foodies".

What's next?

[bilrus]

Up until this point I've reserved judgement on this thread, but this quote:

"I am a former English teacher. I have given up correcting people. When in Rome......"

strikes me as being just as condescending as the idea of my-admittedly-white-self expressing outrage and offense on behalf of the black community as a whole.

[morela]

Earlier this year, someone called us "hipster foodies".

Now we're "politically correct foodies".

What's next?

Uneducated, uninsured foodies

[jparrott]

Chef, if you are reading this, your restaurant is a place I've been meaning to try for quite some time now.

So have I.

Can I have a beer yet?

[tryska]

well good for gillian. she's got my respect.

[JPW]

Gillian Clark contacted me about this thread, and gave me permission to reproduce her letter to me in its entirety:

Don,

I read the daSto thread, and I'm always interested to see a bunch of over-educated white people "dissing" an over-educated black chef for calling her store (very tongue-in-cheek I might add) a word she hears every day.  Nobody in the neighborhood is offended by that sign that has been hanging for two weeks.

None of my customers or employees who often say they're going to "da Sto" are ashamed of how they talk.  It seems that only a small group of snooty white people attempting to be politically correct foodies find fault with their pronunciation.  I'm from New York...I think everybody down here talks funny.  And I think that they would be offended by your attempts to come to their rescue.

Where DOES all this hostility come from anyway? 

What offends me are people that have never darkened my door, yet see fit to judge me and my store and the quality of my merchandise just because they do not like the name I chose.

I am a former English teacher.  I have given up correcting people.  When in Rome......

Chef

(or for those who are offended that I sign my emails Chef)

Yours,

Gillian

The next eGullet DC & DelMarVa chat will be with Gillian, and will officially begin next Monday (in a separate thread), so hone your blades, screw your courage to its sticking place, and get your questions ready.

Cheers,

Rocks.

Interesting. I went back and read the thread and thought that I might parse Chef Gillian's (wanted to put both in there so noone would be offended) reply.

I read the daSto thread, and I'm always interested to see a bunch of over-educated white people "dissing" an over-educated black chef for calling her store (very tongue-in-cheek I might add) a word she hears every day. .

This I find to be about as prejudiced as you can get. Made even more amusing by using the word "see". You've not seen all of us. How do you know we're all white? Ah yes, it must be because the level of writing is so good. We all know that only over-educated white people write like that. For that matter how can you know that we are all "over-educated"? Have you looked at all off our resumes?

Perhaps your inability to interpret several of the posts as "very toungue-in-cheek" is the same as our inability to discern automatically that you were being "very toungue in cheek" with the name.

Nobody in the neighborhood is offended by that sign that has been hanging for two weeks.

Not quite the same as saying nobody has actively complained to you. Have you surveyed the whole neighborhood?

None of my customers or employees who often say they're going to "da Sto" are ashamed of how they talk.  It seems that only a small group of snooty white people attempting to be politically correct foodies find fault with their pronunciation.  I'm from New York...I think everybody down here talks funny.  And I think that they would be offended by your attempts to come to their rescue.

Starting from you automatic assumption that we're all white (I know now it's because only white people use computers!), should we then assume that all of the customers or employees that you are referring to are black?

How about this. Maybe it's not about race at all. Could it possibly be about education? Class? Birthplace?

Where DOES all this hostility come from anyway? 

Perhaps because in all the communications people have seen from you, whether here or elsewhere, you portray the attitude of someone is never wrong and is unwilling to be at all flexible to the ideas of others. People tend to react negatively to that. You own your places so you have the right to set the rules. If I don't like the rules then I don't have to go. (and I haven't yet and don't know if I will or not)

What offends me are people that have never darkened my door, yet see fit to judge me and my store and the quality of my merchandise just because they do not like the name I chose.

No bad pun intended at all, but isn't this the pot calling the kettle black?

Also I did not see anybody criticizing the merchandise in the store (but maybe I'm wrong). Overall what I saw was some people thinking that it was just not a good name and poking some fun at it.

I am a former English teacher.  I have given up correcting people.  When in Rome......

Chef

(or for those who are offended that I sign my emails Chef)

Yours,

Gillian

It's not that people are offended, I think it's more that this is a very unpretentious place and some found it somewhat pretentious. It's also not just you. Look at the Kliman thread and see what we did to him. (And I have no idea if he's black or white).

In this post I have reacted somewhat sarcastically to Ms. Clark's post as I found her tone to be rather overly aggresive. Hopefully, with a little respect for the opinions of others on both sides we can focus on more constructive topics in her interview.

Respectfully,

Joe

[jmc8y]

i'm not white, but then again, i haven't replied to the thread until now.

I have no problem with the name of the store, nor do i have a problem with her control over the way her dishes are prepared. Shit, dog, no one is forcing you to eat there.

However, judging by the letter she wrote to Sietsema and the above message, she comes off as quite defensive and a little bitchy.

Edited July 30, 2004 by jmc8y (log)

[Al_Dente]

Perhaps I need to re-read this entire thread in one sitting to see what the big whoop here is all about. Things have certainly escalated rather quickly.

Where's Stevie Wonder and Paul McCartney when you need them?

[DCMark]

El Jeffe:

I am just say one thing about the hostility: Where there is smoke there is fire BABY!

[Todd Kliman]

I don't find it condescending, personally.

And I'm not sure hostility is the right word to describe the response to this. Shrill, maybe. A certain kind of shrillness -- evocative of a certain class and age and demographic.

Nor do I see what's "offensive." What is offensive, to me, is people who might talk a good, strong game where matters of class and race are concerned but who don't back it up. Who don't venture beyond the limitations of their own neighborhoods. Who presume that it is possible to speak for a greater good, to speak for everyone.

I think the name is sly and funny and rich in association. And sure -- there's a lot of daring behind it. It's tailor-made to stir debate.

What, I wonder, is the worry, though?

Is it that she's "degrading" herself, as whites are forever suggesting that blacks who utter the word "nigger" are degrading themselves? That she's being too "irreverent" -- because, of course, matters of race can be discussed only in the most reverent and sober of terms?

I suspect that some of us are troubled by this because the name is a bold assertion of a kind of blackness that, aside from some videos and some TV shows -- easily dismissed by the elite class, which, of course, doesn't watch TV anyway -- is rarely seen in public life in this post-Integration age. It's not sanitized for white sensibilities. Because, well -- it's not FOR whites. And, well -- everything but everything else IS.

I think it's awfully dangerous to point the finger and shout, pathology!, at something that -- as I see it -- is in no way symptomatic of depravity or hopelessness or shamefulness but is, on the contrary, a product of cultural richness and hearty good humor.

[Squeat Mungry]

At least you guys didn't have to live through eight years of da Mayor!

Cheers,

Squeat (former DC dweller)

[bilrus]

Perhaps I need to re-read this entire thread in one sitting to see what the big whoop here is all about. Things have certainly escalated rather quickly.

Where's Stevie Wonder and Paul McCartney when you need them?

I actually consider this thread to by your fault Mr. Dente. Just yesterday you said things were too quiet around here.

Edited July 30, 2004 by bilrus (log)

[DCMark]

I don't find it condescending, personally.

And I'm not sure hostility is the right word to describe the response to this. Shrill, maybe. A certain kind of shrillness -- evocative of a certain class and age and demographic.

Nor do I see what's "offensive." What is offensive, to me, is people who might talk a good, strong game where matters of class and race are concerned but who don't back it up. Who don't venture beyond the limitations of their own neighborhoods. Who presume that it is possible to speak for a greater good, to speak for everyone.

I think the name is sly and funny and rich in association. And sure -- there's a lot of daring behind it. It's tailor-made to stir debate.

What, I wonder, is the worry, though?

Is it that she's "degrading" herself, as whites are forever suggesting that blacks who utter the word "nigger" are degrading themselves? That she's being too "irreverent" -- because, of course, matters of race can be discussed only in the most reverent and sober of terms?

I suspect that some of us are troubled by this because the name is a bold assertion of a kind of blackness that, aside from some videos and some TV shows -- easily dismissed by the elite class, which, of course, doesn't watch TV anyway -- is rarely seen in public life in this post-Integration age. It's not sanitized for white sensibilities. Because, well -- it's not FOR whites. And, well -- everything but everything else IS.

I think it's awfully dangerous to point the finger and shout, pathology!, at something that -- as I see it -- is in no way symptomatic of depravity or hopelessness or shamefulness but is, on the contrary, a product of cultural richness and hearty good humor.

Tood, I found your post hard to get though (sort of like your columns [alert: JOKE]). But you make ALOT of assumptions. Are you projecting?

[Minister of Drink]

I don't find it condescending, personally.

And I'm not sure hostility is the right word to describe the response to this. Shrill, maybe. A certain kind of shrillness -- evocative of a certain class and age and demographic.

Nor do I see what's "offensive." What is offensive, to me, is people who might talk a good, strong game where matters of class and race are concerned but who don't back it up. Who don't venture beyond the limitations of their own neighborhoods. Who presume that it is possible to speak for a greater good, to speak for everyone.

I think the name is sly and funny and rich in association. And sure -- there's a lot of daring behind it. It's tailor-made to stir debate.

What, I wonder, is the worry, though?

Is it that she's "degrading" herself, as whites are forever suggesting that blacks who utter the word "nigger" are degrading themselves? That she's being too "irreverent" -- because, of course, matters of race can be discussed only in the most reverent and sober of terms?

I suspect that some of us are troubled by this because the name is a bold assertion of a kind of blackness that, aside from some videos and some TV shows --  easily dismissed by the elite class, which, of course, doesn't watch TV anyway -- is rarely seen in public life in this post-Integration age. It's not sanitized for white sensibilities. Because, well -- it's not FOR whites. And, well -- everything but everything else IS.

I think it's awfully dangerous to point the finger and shout, pathology!, at something that -- as I see it -- is in no way symptomatic of depravity or hopelessness or shamefulness but is, on the contrary, a product of cultural richness and hearty good humor.

Tood, I found your post hard to get though (sort of like your columns [alert: JOKE]). But you make ALOT of assumptions. Are you projecting?

Amen brutha! I needed a drink to relax my mind after reading that. In fact I need to bust out a case of Bull after reading this entire thread!!!!

People, loosen up!!! (I'd should really say "lighten" up but that would be adding fuel to the fire).

[JennyUptown]

I'm taking bets on how long it will take Mr. Rockwell to lock this topic.

Anyone care to wager?

[morela]

I'm taking bets on how long it will take Mr. Rockwell to lock this topic.

Anyone care to wager?

To the contrary, rockwell is hosting a chat with GC which starts Monday. I am willing to bet the farm that this thread will be a heavy focus.

I encourge everyone to be thoughtful and ask questions.

Edited July 30, 2004 by morela (log)

[mnebergall]

This has to be one of the most thought provoking threads I have seen in a long time. I have started to post a half-dozen times but have held back.